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Can science disprove the existence of God?

OurCreed

There is no God but Allah
But how do you know for certain?

Are you saying that seen God, and see that he has no mouth?

If you haven't seen God, then how can you possibly be so positive what God have or have not?

The Qur'an write a lot of things, making God as if he was like a real person.

For instance, read 2:115:



Or read 23:86:


Clearly these verses portraying God as if he was a king, and he would require a throne, like a king.

So, if Allah doesn't have a body as you say, then why Qur'an say that Allah require a "throne"?

A throne is supposed to be seat of a king's power, but if Allah is just spirit, then it would mean that God have backside to sit on a throne. Or doesn't he?

As you can see, if God have no body, head or limbs, then having a throne is pointless. And the Qur'an write a lot of pointless things.

Your understanding of God as a being and the Qur'anic text is poor. If God had a mouth, He would be limited. The Qur'an says that God is like nothing any human has seen and that nothing is like Him. If you read the Qur'an, you would have known that. When God reveals verses regarding certain things, like His face, or His hands, these are simply metaphors.

The last verse of surah Al-Ikhlas (chapter 112) says, "And there is nothing like Him."
That confirms that all these verses describing certain actions of God are simply metaphors. Islam doesn't teach God to have a figure, that is why there are no statues made of God in Islam like other religions. Attributing human characteristics to God is a big mistake.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Faith, like you said is about "trusting" what one believe in. Nothing in "faith: (definition) say any about believing anything about "evidence" or "logic". You are attempting to twist what faith mean, by adding terms that associate with "faith".

Yes, faith is trusting. You can trust in something blindly, or you can trust in something after you have evidence, or if you have reasons to trust. I trust my mother to hold onto my personal items. Why? Because I've known her my whole life, she has taken care of me and never did anything that would put me to harm. So if I had an important object that I needed to keep safe, I would be able to put my faith on my mother to keep it safe with her and not give it away or steal it. That is called faith with reason. Blind faith is where you see a random person on the street and blindly trust them for your things. The thing is, you can never be sure what type of person they are and what they will do with your things.

Faith is a neutral word, and is applied depending on context.

When we talk about faith in God, it's the same deal. A person will either have faith in God without any reasons, or with reasons. There's nothing wrong with both, but the person who has faith in God with reason will be the stronger believer, because they had experienced what the blind faith one did not, and that is a fulfillment of trust.

Take for instance, Muhammad's claim that he is prophet because of an angel named Gabriel said so. How do you know? There were no other eye-witnesses to collaborate his angelic encounter, except for Muhammad's words alone. That's faith, that you believe it is true, not evidence.

People believed in Muhammad not because he just told them, "Oh look at me, an angel spoke to me and I'm a prophet." People believed in Muhammad because they knew him his whole life, and that he was a sane person whom was also honest and trustworthy, never would he tell a lie. Just like I trust my mother to hold onto my things. Muhammad's friend, Abu Bakr, was on an expedition when Muhammad claimed prophethood, and upon his arrival back home, he heard that Muhammad claimed prophethood. He went up to his house and Muhammad began to speak and start giving his friend reasons and evidence for his claim of prophethood, and Abu Bakr told him to stop, and that he believed in him without needing any evidence.

Why? Because his friend knew him his whole life, that Muhammad would never lie, nor was he insane or had mental instability. And that is how the first believers were those of Muhammad's close family and friends, and nobody else, for the first three years. Muhammad's close ones knew him and his personality, so they trusted him, just like I trust my mother whom I knew my whole life.

If Muhammad was a random stranger who appeared in Mecca and told everyone to follow him since he's a prophet, that would be a different story. In the other case, his family and friends had good reason to believe him. In this new case, if Muhammad was a random stranger, there are no good reasons to follow or accept him, since anyone can easily claim prophethood, and many did after Muhammad's death.

When we talk about God, God guides those people who search for Him and investigate Him. The Qur'an already talks about revealing signs and miracles (in Arabic, ayat), which are evidences for His existence. God reveals His ayat to those who already have open hearts, those who are searching for truth. He doesn't guide those who think they know everything, and many atheists act this way, as if they know for sure there isn't a creator. The arrogant will never be guided.

I don't respect your dishonesty for trying to twist the meaning of faith with the context of evidence or logic. You implied that faith mean evidence and logic, but that's not true.

And where exactly did I say that? I don't respect your strawman argument.

If your mother claimed to be a prophet of God would you believe her?
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Read his latest posts. He changed the page and then someone else removed what he had written.

Problem is I find no evidence of the changes mentioned. Keep in mind I can only search the history using the statement made in comment. So if something not stated was changed I can not confirm nor deny as specific criteria is missing. So either someone is lying or there is a lack of information about what has been changed.
 

OurCreed

There is no God but Allah
If your mother claimed to be a prophet of God would you believe her?

No, firstly because the Qur'an has declared Muhammad as the seal of the prophets.

Second, females are not instructed to ever be prophets.

Third, despite me growing up with my mother and knowing her personality, and her caring for me and being there for me, she wasn't without flaws.

Fourth, if she did happen to be a prophet, she would have signs of God given to her to prove that she was indeed an apostle sent by God, or any other person for that matter.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
No, firstly because the Qur'an has declared Muhammad as the seal of the prophets.

Second, females are not instructed to ever be prophets.

Third, despite me growing up with my mother and knowing her personality, and her caring for me and being there for me, she wasn't without flaws.

Fourth, if she did happen to be a prophet, she would have signs of God given to her to prove that she was indeed an apostle sent by God, or any other person for that matter.

So your experience of and faith in your mother is overridden by another influence. You accept the claims of reliability and trustworthiness 1400 years removed from you over the claims of your mother. Thus you do not have faith nor trust in your mother at a level you have attempted to put forward. Keep in mind you provided an example in which Muhammad was accepted as a prophet without evidence, now you claim signs are required. You contradict yourself.

And you wonder why people do not accept the words of a man 14 centuries ago based on faith... Yet you have no issues in creating reason to reject a hypothetical "mother become prophet" by following presupposition of your religion along with it's dogma and doctrine.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Excuse me but if I have to choose between an anonymous poster's analysis and a Cambridge professor's analysis, I'll go with the Cambridge professor's analysis. No offense intended.
Then your ignorance is of your own making.

Second, I don't know this Ramsay, and it would seem his sources (if he had any at all) is incomplete, because it doesn't include Against Marcion, 4, 19, by early 3rd century Christian Tertullian, who clearly stated Gaius Sentius Saturninus (9 – 7/6 BCE) was governor at the time of Jesus' birth. Saturninus' successor was Varus.

Publius Quinctilius Varus (governor of Syria, 7/6 – 4 BCE) was mentioned by Josephus in Antiquities of the Jews. Saturninus also appeared in the Antiquities. Quirinius is never mentioned in Antiquities UNTIL the expulsion of Archelaus from Judaea, 10 years after Herod's death.

So clearly, Josephus mentioned 3 governors serving in Syria at different times, but only Saturninus and Varus were serving in the years before Herod's death.

If you chose to ignore Tertullian, because of Ramsay's make-believe Quirinius' two terms in Syria, which obvious didn't happen.

Did you know that Ramsay was quoting inscription, that give no name as to who this twice-serving governor of Syria? There is no identity.

Yes, Crypto, I know all about this inscriptions in Tibur (Tivoli) about the governor serving twice; except that these inscriptions have no name, so Ramsay could claim anyone he like, but Ramsay has no evidence that this is Quirinius, so Ramsay have no evidence whatsoever to support his claim.

My suggestion would be to look up Tertullian and look up his Against Marcion, instead of ignoring it, as William Ramsay obviously did. If you don't look up Tertullian, then you are ignoring a source.

You are terrible scholar, relying on just one person to prove your point, whereas I have provided several.
 
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ArtieE

Well-Known Member
The last verse of surah Al-Ikhlas (chapter 112) says, "And there is nothing like Him."
That should be either "And there is nothing like it" or "And there is nobody like Him." By the way you can't use the word Him to describe this God either because this God would be nothing like what we would describe as Him or Her.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
or you can trust in something after you have evidence
Except you wouldn't call it faith any longer, if you have evidence to begin with.

That's what you don't understand OurCreed.

Faith, especially religious or spiritual faith, is quite specific in meaning; faith means conviction without evidences.

If you have evidences, then you don't need faith. If you got evidences, then it is not faith.

I cannot be more straight with you on this; you are misrepresenting what faith means; you are changing definition of faith, where it no longer mean faith.

Clearly, I am not going to be convince you that your definition in faith is wrong, because you are already set in your way (meaning, you're biased).

And where exactly did I say that? I don't respect your strawman argument.
Wrong, it is not straw man, because you keep insisting that having faith and evidence is one and the same, both implicitly and explicitly.

I am the one who keeping that you can't have both faith and evidence, because they are completely different.

What you do seem to understand is that faith is all about "believing", where as evidence is all about "knowing" or "refuting".

Take Muhammad and angel encounter. You believe that it happen, but you have no evidence; you are basing your belief on faith, not on evidence.

You believe in Allah, that's faith, not based on evidence.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
When we talk about faith in God, it's the same deal. A person will either have faith in God without any reasons, or with reasons. There's nothing wrong with both, but the person who has faith in God with reason will be the stronger believer, because they had experienced what the blind faith one did not, and that is a fulfillment of trust.
Let me explain it simply for you. You can believe in something based on evidence. When you take a leap of faith you believe in something without sufficient evidence or despite the evidence.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Let me explain it simply for you. You can believe in something based on evidence. When you take a leap of faith you believe in something without sufficient evidence or despite the evidence.

I don't think I could have said it better.
 

OurCreed

There is no God but Allah
So your experience of and faith in your mother is overridden by another influence. You accept the claims of reliability and trustworthiness 1400 years removed from you over the claims of your mother. Thus you do not have faith nor trust in your mother at a level you have attempted to put forward. Keep in mind you provided an example in which Muhammad was accepted as a prophet without evidence, now you claim signs are required. You contradict yourself.

And you wonder why people do not accept the words of a man 14 centuries ago based on faith... Yet you have no issues in creating reason to reject a hypothetical "mother become prophet" by following presupposition of your religion along with it's dogma and doctrine.

Keep in mind you provided an example in which Muhammad was accepted as a prophet without evidence, now you claim signs are required. You contradict yourself.

I said that this is something that can happen, given the idea that
So your experience of and faith in your mother is overridden by another influence. You accept the claims of reliability and trustworthiness 1400 years removed from you over the claims of your mother. Thus you do not have faith nor trust in your mother at a level you have attempted to put forward. Keep in mind you provided an example in which Muhammad was accepted as a prophet without evidence, now you claim signs are required. You contradict yourself.

And you wonder why people do not accept the words of a man 14 centuries ago based on faith... Yet you have no issues in creating reason to reject a hypothetical "mother become prophet" by following presupposition of your religion along with it's dogma and doctrine.

Did I say what Abu Bakr did was right? No I didn't. If I was in that situation, I would ask for the proof. Same goes with my mother. Claiming prophethood is not something that you should take lightly. The reason why I accept Muhammad as a prophet is because I believe the Qur'an is the word of God, and since the Qur'an states Muhammad is a prophet, I have to accept that. So everything goes back to the book. I don't have to worry about Muhammad's personal life, I wasn't there. What I have to worry about is whether the Qur'an is God's revelation, or it is man made, and my research on it gives me the reasons to believe that it is the former.
 

OurCreed

There is no God but Allah
That should be either "And there is nothing like it" or "And there is nobody like Him." By the way you can't use the word Him to describe this God either because this God would be nothing like what we would describe as Him or Her.

It's just a translation. The meaning of the verse is basically saying that there is nothing out there, whether an object, a person, an idea, anything, that is like Him or comparable to Him in any way.

Second, yes, we can use Him, as it is the closest English equivalent of the pronoun. Just because we use Him to describe God doesn't mean God is a male. It's just a limitation of our language. He and Him can also be considered gender neutral if one takes it that way.
 

OurCreed

There is no God but Allah
Let me explain it simply for you. You can believe in something based on evidence. When you take a leap of faith you believe in something without sufficient evidence or despite the evidence.

You're taking this to the extreme. Every human being takes a leap of faith. A leap is a leap, regardless of how big the gap is. The more evidence you have, the smaller the leap is. A detective will search for clues regarding a serial killer. The detective will find fingerprints, footprints, broken glass, a cigar, some torn clothes, and other things to figure out who the suspect is. When the detective makes a conclusion, he is doing that with a leap of faith, because the evidence points to a certain individual, but the evidence doesn't prove for a fact that it was that certain individual.

Doctors make leaps of faith all the time. Something you guys don't understand is that faith is simply putting your trust in something, and the more evidence a person has, the easier it is to have faith in someone or something. Faith and evidence are not opposites!
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
You're taking this to the extreme. Every human being takes a leap of faith. A leap is a leap, regardless of how big the gap is. The more evidence you have, the smaller the leap is. A detective will search for clues regarding a serial killer. The detective will find fingerprints, footprints, broken glass, a cigar, some torn clothes, and other things to figure out who the suspect is. When the detective makes a conclusion, he is doing that with a leap of faith, because the evidence points to a certain individual, but the evidence doesn't prove for a fact that it was that certain individual.

Doctors make leaps of faith all the time. Something you guys don't understand is that faith is simply putting your trust in something, and the more evidence a person has, the easier it is to have faith in someone or something. Faith and evidence are not opposites!
To take a leap of faith means believing something even though there's not enough evidence to support the belief. If the detective has evidence pointing to a certain individual and he believes the individual did it that's not faith. If the detective didn't have evidence and still believed the individual did it that would be faith. If the detective knew the individual he might believe the individual didn't do it despite the evidence. That would also be faith.
 

OurCreed

There is no God but Allah
To take a leap of faith means believing something even though there's not enough evidence to support the belief. If the detective has evidence pointing to a certain individual and he believes the individual did it that's not faith. If the detective didn't have evidence and still believed the individual did it that would be faith. If the detective knew the individual he might believe the individual didn't do it despite the evidence. That would also be faith.

Yes it is still faith. Everything in life is faith. A leap of faith gets smaller the more evidence there is. It doesn't always mean there is not enough evidence to support a belief.

Science actually is riddled with leaps of faith because everything we observe is a hypothesis, not something 100% proven. Our scientific theories are based off of these evidences, and from these evidences, we make those leaps of faith and come to conclusions.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Yes it is still faith. Everything in life is faith. A leap of faith gets smaller the more evidence there is. It doesn't always mean there is not enough evidence to support a belief.

Science actually is riddled with leaps of faith because everything we observe is a hypothesis, not something 100% proven. Our scientific theories are based off of these evidences, and from these evidences, we make those leaps of faith and come to conclusions.
So what you are saying is that scientists who hold the Big Bang to be the most likely explanation for the beginning of the universe have faith in the Big Bang theory and that they must have made a leap of faith to hold this theory to be the most likely explanation?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The analogy does not work because the people that you describe were either (1) believing in someone else's testimony or (2) mentally ill. The apostles didn't die for something that they heard from other people, but for something that they saw with their own eyes. If the people that you mentioned died because they claimed to have seen the aliens themselves and have talked to the aliens themselves, then your analogy would be closer to being a valid analogy. However, this is not the case. The apostles weren't mentally ill. Anyone who has read Paul's letters knows for a fact that Paul had one of the brightest and most lucid minds in the history of mankind. This opinion is shared by many scholars, both Christian and non-Christian.

Did Paul meet the resurrected Jesus?

According to what I remember from my days as a believer, he had visions of Jesus, probably induced by a sunstroke. Which points more towards insanity, at least momentarily, than to actual testimony of true objective events.

The fact is: if you really really believe, then you can sacrifice your life, and sometimes the lives of others, without the object of your belief to exist.

Ergo, the readiness to die because of X does not say anything about the actual existence of X.

Ciao

- viole
 

Crypto2015

Active Member
Did Paul meet the resurrected Jesus?

According to what I remember from my days as a believer, he had visions of Jesus, probably induced by a sunstroke. Which points more towards insanity, at least momentarily, than to actual testimony of true objective events.

The fact is: if you really really believe, then you can sacrifice your life, and sometimes the lives of others, without the object of your belief to exist.

Ergo, the readiness to die because of X does not say anything about the actual existence of X.

Ciao

- viole

The difference between seeing the resurrected Jesus and having a vision of Jesus is that the former is an experience shared by all that are present, whereas the latter is something that happens only inside the mind of the person that is having the vision. An example of a vision is what Stephen experienced before being stoned to death (Acts 7:56). On the other hand, when Jesus appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9) those who were with him also witnessed the supernatural appearance of our Lord, although their experience was not as detailed as that of Paul (then Saul). Hence, Paul didn't have a vision of Jesus. He actually saw the resurrected Christ. This is what Paul himself tells us (1 Corinthians 15:8).

Regarding dying for something, it is possible to die for an ideology that is actually a false ideology. For example, dying for Communism does not prove communism right. What the apostles did, however, is different. They died not for an ideology, but to bear witness to a supernatural event that they themselves had experienced (along with hundreds of other people). They wouldn't have died to bear witness to Jesus' resurrection if they had known that the resurrection didn't happen. Also, bear in mind that they weren't crazy because the risen Lord was seen by hundreds of people and any psychologist would tell you that such a phenomenon cannot be attributed to massive hysteria or to a collective hallucination. That's why even non-Christian historians recognize that the apostles must have seen something out of the ordinary. Otherwise, it is impossible to explain why they died to bear witness to the resurrection.
 
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