Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[jaareshiah]

I was talking to a Lutheran Pastor the other day and he said God provided the greatest gift when he offered himself up as Jesus on the cross. But from what I read in the Bible, when Jesus was on the cross, he spoke to God in heaven. How then can he be God at the same time? Please explain. Thanks

The first use of "trinity" was by Tertullian (about 160-230 C.E.) who used the Latin word trintas, coining the formula "one substance in three persons". Using this concept, he attempted to show that God, his Son, and the holy spirit were three distinct persons existing in one divine substance.

Tertullian thus became the first to apply the Latin form of the word “trinity” to the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit, eventually leading up to the Trinity doctrine in the 4th century C.E. Tertullian at times used specious reasoning, reasoning that was deceptively attractive, but twisted, such as "God is then especially great, when He is small" or "[Jesus] was buried, and rose again; the fact is certain, because it is impossible." His teachings actually corrupted true teachings of the Bible.

The Trinity doctrine says that "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet there are not three Gods but one God." How does this measure up against the Bible ? Upon his resurrection from the dead, Jesus told Mary Magdalene to "go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”(John 20:17)

And when before the Samaritan woman at the well near Sychar, he told her: "You worship what you do not know; we worship (Jesus included himself in worshipping the Father) what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews......the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father (not the Son) with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him (and not the Son)."(John 4:22, 23)

Hence, Jesus established the fact that he is not the Almighty God, but worships the "only true God" or Father, just as other Jews did. Jesus succinctly said that only the Father, Jehovah God, is to be worshipped. At John 17:3, Jesus says in prayer: "This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ." So, Jesus clearly distinguished himself from the "only true God".

And at John 10, Jesus told the Jews: "Do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’ ?"(John 10:36) Jesus told these Jews that he had been "sent into the world" by the Father and not of his own accord, and also told them that he was "God's Son", not God.

This Scripture also shows that Jesus had to be "sanctified" or made holy for his assignment. Our Maker, Jehovah God is the very epitome of holiness and is in no need to be "sanctified".(see Isa 6:3 whereby Jehovah is called "Holy, holy, holy" to emphasize his perfection of being holy)

And of the holy spirit, it is likened to water and blessings that can be poured out. At Isaiah 44, Jehovah says: "For I will pour out water on the thirsty one and flowing streams on the dry ground. I will pour out my spirit on your offspring and my blessing on your descendants."(Isa 44:3)

That the holy spirit is God's active force, can be seen from the angel Gabriel's answer to Mary's question about how she will become pregnant: "Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. And for that reason the one who is born will be called holy, God’s Son."(Luke 1:35)

Gabriel called the holy spirit "power" that comes forth from the Most High or Jehovah God. At Luke 4, it says of Jesus: "Then Jesus, full of holy spirit, turned away from the Jordan, and he was led about by the spirit in the wilderness."(Luke 4:1)

Jesus was "full of holy spirit" or God's active force (not a person) that empowered him to accomplish his assignment of making known the "good news of the Kingdom" until his death.(Luke 8:1; see also Ex 31:3 concerning Jehovah ' filling Bezalel with the spirit of God ' for making artistic designs for the tabernacle)

And at Isaiah 45, it says: "I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. There is no God except me."(Isa 45:5) Thence, Jehovah is God Almighty with no beginning (Gen 17:1; Ps 90:2), with Jesus as his "only-begotten Son" (John 3:16) that was created by Jehovah.(Rev 3:14)

And the holy spirit is Jehovah's active force that he used to create all life and the universe.(see Gen 1:2 as well as Ps 104:29, 30 where it says that if Jehovah takes away a person's spirit (or life force) they die and if he gives spirit (or life force) to a person, "they are created" or come to life)

 

[Yes]

Here you go again....your math is a little skewed. Do you know how many of your beliefs are based on mathematical calculations where you have the numbers wrong in the first place? You use the 1+1 method to get 3.

If you could show yourself in three ways, would it still not be the one you?

Being a "temple of the holy spirit" meant having the anointing of God's spirit, which like the original temple, was inhabited by God's spirit, not God himself.

God Himself is Spirit and He does live inside those saved.

The Creator cannot dwell in hand made temples.

God was in the tent and in the temple. God walked among His people.

His presence in the Holy of Holies was indicated by the Shekinah Light. God spoke from above the cherubs atop the Ark of the Covenant.
He spoke to mankind by the "light" that he sent into the world...his most precious son. Just as the Shekinah light was not Jehovah, so the "light" that he sent into the world was not Jehovah either, but his representative.

You are wrong, for the scriptures says God is light.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 "Have ye not known that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own, for ye were bought with a price; glorify, then, God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's." (From the YLT)

Do you ever use more than one translation?

I do.

How was God "with" his people in pre-Christian times when they had a literal temple? How did God direct his nation before Messiah came?

God's is Spirit and He was with His people in the Spirit. God gave His Spirit to some Prophets so that they could speak to His people.

Who is "the Lord" mentioned here? Any wonder people get confused when they don't know the difference between "the Lord Jesus" and "the Lord Jehovah".

So, OK....where in those scriptures, or any others, do we see God telling us that he is three different aspects in one godhead? Where in all of scripture will I find one direct statement of what you assume is true. The scriptures you present are not direct statements but ambiguous verses that could mean a number of things depending on the slant you wish to give them.

You are denying what the scriptures are saying.

As I mentioned before, if we have clear unequivocal statements that make a triune godhead impossible, then the ambiguous statements must be false. They are arrived at by faulty reasoning and a dire need for the cherished belief to be true....despite the fact that they don't hold water.

If you had the correct understanding of who God is; who his son is; what their relationship is and the mechanics of the ransom, you could not come to the conclusions that you have reached. But that is your choice.

You quote scripture as if everyone reads it as you do...they don't, and I don't see one single piece of evidence that you have provided by way of scripture that says directly what you want it to say. That is the truth of it.


Why do you resort to this kind of response? It makes your position look even more foolish. Many are probably thinking your own opinions are worthless......we all have a point of view and we have the freedom to present them....but we don't have the right to tell people what to believe.

Everyone can believe whatever they wish. If God allows them the choice...why can't you?

God's word is clear, and if you want to have understanding, then you have to obey...that is what God says.

 

[JM2C]

That is right. Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God. The trinitarians DENY that truth.

The trinitarians say Jesus is not the Holy Spirit

Read post#247 again.

 

[cataway]

If you could show yourself in three ways, would it still not be the one you?

me . myself and I does not a trinity make

 

[moorea944]

If you could show yourself in three ways, would it still not be the one you?


God Himself is Spirit and He does live inside those saved.



God was in the tent and in the temple. God walked among His people.


You are wrong, for the scriptures says God is light.


I do.



God's is Spirit and He was with His people in the Spirit. God gave His Spirit to some Prophets so that they could speak to His people.


You are denying what the scriptures are saying.



God's word is clear, and if you want to have understanding, then you have to obey...that is what God says.

[God was in the tent and in the temple. God walked among His people.]
Not phyisically. God never came to earth. He was working through his spirit or dwelling somewhere or working through His angels. God manifestation. If God came to earth we would die in His presence.
God can manifest Himself so that an angel came speak as God. We read stories of angels saying to someone, "I am the Lord God. "

Remember that God dwelled between the cherbum on the ark. God never actually Himself was there, but His power, His Glory was there.

 

[Yes]

Read post#247 again.

I know what the trinity doctrine believes, and it is against God.

 

[Yes]

me . myself and I does not a trinity make

You are not even close.

 

[Yes]

[God was in the tent and in the temple. God walked among His people.]
Not phyisically.

God is Spirit. Jesus is Spirit.

God never came to earth. He was working through his spirit or dwelling somewhere or working through His angels. God manifestation. If God came to earth we would die in His presence.
God can manifest Himself so that an angel came speak as God. We read stories of angels saying to someone, "I am the Lord God. "

Remember that God dwelled between the cherbum on the ark. God never actually Himself was there, but His power, His Glory was there.

God is Spirit and He walked among His people.

Leviticus 26:12 I will walk among you and be your God, and you will be my people.

 

[moorea944]

God is Spirit. Jesus is Spirit.

God is Spirit and He walked among His people.

Leviticus 26:12 I will walk among you and be your God, and you will be my people.

Yes, God's Spirit is everywhere.

 

[JayJayDee]

If you could show yourself in three ways, would it still not be the one you?

LOL bad analogy......I could not be in three places at once and if I started talking to myself and answering myself, I'd probably end up in a padded cell.

I am still waiting for you present one unambiguous scriptural statement from either God or his Christ to prove your belief that Jesus is actually his own Father.

God Himself is Spirit and He does live inside those saved.

He said he would dwell by spirit in his anointed ones. Others he directs by those who have his spirit. Not all are anointed with God's spirit but many can be guided by it. This was the case in the first century and it is still the case today. I don't think you appreciate the difference.

Why, according to your belief do you think Jesus comes back to take his anointed ones to heaven? What is the purpose of the kingdom? What is it exactly and how does it "come"?

God was in the tent and in the temple. God walked among His people.

A mere man-made temple could never contain the Most High.

Look at how Paul described his God....

Acts 17:24-26....."The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation" (NASB)

God's spiritual presence in his temple was represented by the Shekinah Light, not his physical presence which would have spelled to death to all. (Ex 33:20)

You are wrong, for the scriptures says God is light.

Whoever is an illuminator is light. Jesus said that his disciples were "the light of the world". (Matt 5:14-16) Where did they get the light that they reflected? From Jesus....and where did he get the light he shone in the world? From his Father. Whose glory did he seek? Not his own but that all glory should go to his Father. (Phil 1:10, 11; 2:11; 4:20)

You are denying what the scriptures are saying.

What is the point of saying something like this every time a flaw is pointed out in your reasoning? The scriptures clearly prove you wrong, yet you stubbornly hang onto your errors whilst proclaiming that everyone else must wrong. It looks kinda desperate.

God's word is clear, and if you want to have understanding, then you have to obey...that is what God says.

How much do you obey, if you don't mind me asking?

When Jesus says to 'love your enemy'...do you love your enemy? If your nation declared war, would you serve or support the armed forces and kill your enemy as an act of obedience to man, but disobedience to Jesus?

Would you "return evil for evil" if your emotions demanded an action that Christ's teachings condemn? ( Rom 12:17-21)

In the celebration of thinly disguised pagan festivals, do you obey the scriptural admonition to separate yourself from such things? (2 Cor 6:14-18) Or do you justify and participate in them?

If you say we must all obey the teachings of the Christ....how obedient are you personally whilst telling everyone else they must comply?

When you point fingers at someone, just remember that three are pointed back at yourself.

 

[sojourner]

None of this explains the Trinity, as the OP asks. For a reasonable and thorough explanation, see the following link:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Trinity

 

[JayJayDee]

None of this explains the Trinity, as the OP asks. For a reasonable and thorough explanation, see the following link:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Trinity

Believe me, there is nothing "blessed" about something as blasphemous as the trinity. There is a reason why it was never part of Jesus' teachings and why it took over 300 years to finally get it made into doctrine. This occurred at a time when apostasy was well and truly established in what has become known as "Churchianity" as opposed to "Christianity". Most people have been raised in a belief system that they are taught not to challenge. Even when some break away from a mainstream religion, the one they transfer to has exactly the same beliefs dressed up under a different name. If they still teach the same false doctrines, what was the point?

Anyone who has studied the scriptures without bias towards the trinity will never accept the faulty explanations of the institution that launched that falsehood in the first place. Seriously. That would be like reading a book on loyalty written by Judas Iscariot.

 

[CMike]

No problem.

A general assumption by Traditional Christians is that the idea of Jesus being God incarnate was always a part of the Christian tradition from the days of the apostles, judging by their interpretation of verses like John 8:58, 20:28, Matthew 28:19, and a host of others which I can explain in detail if you'd like, but this is simply not the case, and their interpretation of these verses is and has been disputed...even by trinitarian scholars themselves! Many will use some of the things Paul said, like in Philemon 2:5-8, of "being in the form of God", when it should read as "form of a god", just like how it says "Form of a slave", in the anarthrous indefinite case, but this is a matter of more detailed discussion, so I'll keep it general. The fact is, and I'll be happy to defend this fact, these interpretations are not as set in stone as they'd like, and there's plenty of evidence that they're downright wrong and distorted. The intended idea was most likely completely in line with the Jewish Logos Theology, of which the "Word" was "a god", as in the incarnation of An Angelic/Divine/Heavenly being, as Angels were in fact called "gods".

The reality is that the Trinity was a 2nd century development around Tertullian's time and most likely does not at all reflect what the original Jewish Christians regarded Jesus as.

It has nothing to do with Jews.

 

[CMike]

You posted information about the trinity doctrine which says God the Father and Jesus are NOT interchangeable.

I will prove easily that God the Father and Jesus Christ are interchangeable.

Who will we bow to?
Who is the Shepherd?
Who is the Redeemer?
Who is the Savior?
Who is the Rock?
Who is the First and the Last?
Who gives life?
Whose works are they?
Who lives inside those saved?
Whose commands are they?
Who pours out the Holy Spirit?

The one and only G-D

 

[WarpCapableVessel]

the Trinity is simple... God came into human flesh (incarnate) so we may better understand him and communicate with him, and he with us.

think of it this way... the Wright Brothers designed then created their plane, then they decided to fly it!

 

[Yes]

LOL bad analogy......I could not be in three places at once and if I started talking to myself and answering myself, I'd probably end up in a padded cell.

I am still waiting for you present one unambiguous scriptural statement from either God or his Christ to prove your belief that Jesus is actually his own Father.

I have shown you many times, but you deny the truth.

He said he would dwell by spirit in his anointed ones. Others he directs by those who have his spirit. Not all are anointed with God's spirit but many can be guided by it. This was the case in the first century and it is still the case today. I don't think you appreciate the difference.

I have no idea how you think you have disproved anything that I said .

Why, according to your belief do you think Jesus comes back to take his anointed ones to heaven?

When a saved person dies, Jesus comes for them. That is where the saved live with Jesus until the resurrection.

What is the purpose of the kingdom? What is it exactly and how does it "come"?

The realm of the Spirit is the kingdom.

It comes when Jesus saves you.

A mere man-made temple could never contain the Most High.

Look at how Paul described his God....

Acts 17:24-26....."The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation" (NASB)

God's spiritual presence in his temple was represented by the Shekinah Light, not his physical presence which would have spelled to death to all. (Ex 33:20)

I have been telling you that God is Spirit.

Whoever is an illuminator is light. Jesus said that his disciples were "the light of the world". (Matt 5:14-16) Where did they get the light that they reflected? From Jesus....and where did he get the light he shone in the world? From his Father. Whose glory did he seek? Not his own but that all glory should go to his Father. (Phil 1:10, 11; 2:11; 4:20)

What is the point of saying something like this every time a flaw is pointed out in your reasoning? The scriptures clearly prove you wrong, yet you stubbornly hang onto your errors whilst proclaiming that everyone else must wrong. It looks kinda desperate.

The scriptures are plain and clear, just believe what they say.

How much do you obey, if you don't mind me asking?

I obey everything that Jesus says.

When Jesus says to 'love your enemy'...do you love your enemy? If your nation declared war, would you serve or support the armed forces and kill your enemy as an act of obedience to man, but disobedience to Jesus?

We pay taxes so that God’s servants can rule for our own good.

Where do you think you would be if the country you originated from never could defend themselves since the New Testament times?

You confuse the mission of the Apostles during the laying of the foundation.

Would you "return evil for evil" if your emotions demanded an action that Christ's teachings condemn? ( Rom 12:17-21)

Of course I would not return evil for evil.

In the celebration of thinly disguised pagan festivals, do you obey the scriptural admonition to separate yourself from such things? (2 Cor 6:14-18) Or do you justify and participate in them?

I celebrate a day for Christ's birth.

If you say we must all obey the teachings of the Christ....how obedient are you personally whilst telling everyone else they must comply?

If I want to stay saved, then I must obey. A person can preach God's Truth but can be disqualified for salvation.

When you point fingers at someone, just remember that three are pointed back at yourself.

I have taken the log out of my eye, and I want to help you to take out the one you have in your eye.

 

[Yes]

The one and only G-D

Who will we bow to?
Who is the Shepherd?
Who is the Redeemer?
Who is the Savior?
Who is the Rock?
Who is the First and the Last?
Who gives life?
Whose works are they?
Who lives inside those saved?
Whose commands are they?
Who pours out the Holy Spirit?


The One and only God the Father and Jesus Christ.

They are One and the same.

 

[Yes]

the Trinity is simple... God came into human flesh (incarnate) so we may better understand him and communicate with him, and he with us.

think of it this way... the Wright Brothers designed then created their plane, then they decided to fly it!

The trinity doctrine is false because it says Jesus is God but that Jesus is not the Father.

Jesus IS God, and since Jesus is God, then he is also the Father, because there is only One God and He is the Father.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father,

Ephesians 4:6
one God and Father

 

[WarpCapableVessel]

The trinity doctrine is false because it says Jesus is God but that Jesus is not the Father.

Jesus IS God, and since Jesus is God, then he is also the Father, because there is only One God and He is the Father.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father,

Ephesians 4:6
one God and Father

Jesus is my father... so you are wrong.

 

[Yes]

Jesus is my father... so you are wrong.

I am not wrong. I am telling you what the trinity doctrine teaches.