Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[Windwalker]

Then you are badly mistaken.

No, you are. Nah.

They do say the three do not exist at the same time. If your denomination did not say that...or if you are mistaken about what they say...I care very little about that. I want to speak about God's Truth.

They very clearly do say this. Where do you get you information from? Please provide any source, whatsoever. I do in fact know what the hell I'm talking about.

Again, I am not mistaken about what modalists believe.

You clearly do not. I know very well what Sabellius taught. I know quite well the history of modern Oneness schools of thought. You have no idea my background here. But I can clearly see you have some fitful fancy of ideas spun out of some box of caramelized popcorn with toy surprises inside.

Again, please provide any source to back up your claims. I'm always open to error on my part. But I doubt you can, and expect you wont.

I get that from trinitarians too, until they are faced with their error, and sometimes they still won't admit it.

Yeah, whatever. If you don't even understand the arguments, how can you pass judgements? But I do commend your enthusiasm, misguided as it is.

 

[Yes]

No, you are. Nah.


They very clearly do say this. Where do you get you information from? Please provide any source, whatsoever. I do in fact know what the hell I'm talking about.


You clearly do not. I know very well what Sabellius taught. I know quite well the history of modern Oneness schools of thought. You have no idea my background here. But I can clearly see you have some fitful fancy of ideas spun out of some box of caramelized popcorn with toy surprises inside.

Again, please provide any source to back up your claims. I'm always open to error on my part. But I doubt you can, and expect you wont.


Yeah, whatever. If you don't even understand the arguments, how can you pass judgements? But I do commend your enthusiasm, misguided as it is.

You thought I did not understand the trinity doctrine. I take it you get it now that I do. You thought I did not understand modalism. I take it now that you think I do except you do not think I understand your particular false denomination's view on modalism?

 

[JayJayDee]

How many times do you have to be shown this scripture?

Philippians 2:6 who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped,

What is the "form of God"? The Bible says that "God is a spirit" so naturally Jesus was also a spirit. It doesn't make him God! Angels are spirits too. They have to be in the "form" of God (spirit form) to exist in his presence.

Philippians 2:6 also says that Jesus did NOT consider equality with God something to be grasped. Jesus never once claimed to be equal to his Creator. He said that YHWH "alone" was to be worshipped. (Deut 10:20; Luke 48.)

 

[Yes]

What is the "form of God"? The Bible says that "God is a spirit" so naturally Jesus was also a spirit. It doesn't make him God!

Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God.

Angels are spirits too. They have to be in the "form" of God (spirit form) to exist in his presence.

Philippians 2:6 also says that Jesus did NOT consider equality with God something to be grasped. Jesus never once claimed to be equal to his Creator. He said that YHWH "alone" was to be worshipped. (Deut 10:20; Luke 48.)

All things were created THROUGH GOD THE FATHER!!!

See Romans 11:36, and Hebrews 2:10---

All things were created THROUGH JESUS!!!

See 1 Corinthians 8:6.

Oh how I love the Word of God!

 

[JayJayDee]

Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God.

When you make categorical statements like this, we rightly expect you to supply scripture to back them up.
Where is the scripture that says Jesus' spirit is God's spirit?

The scriptures tell us that God gave holy spirit to his son at his baptism, thereafter Jesus could perform miracles. If Jesus was God in the flesh then why would he need an anointing with holy spirit? There is no record of Jesus being able to do any supernatural things before his baptism at 30 years of age.

All things were created THROUGH GOD THE FATHER!!!

See Romans 11:36, and Hebrews 2:10---

Romans 11:33-36..."Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen." (NASB)

Paul is quoting Isaiah 41:11 which is indeed speaking about YHWH.
Where does it say anything that remotely speaks about Jesus in this verse? YHWH is the Creator and he used the agency of his firstborn son in creating all things. You are reading what you want to see into that verse. Inference is not something you can build a belief on. If there is no categorical statement, then you can read into scripture anything you like. Many do exactly what you do....it doesn't make them right.

In context....Hebrews 2:9-11 "But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren" (NASB)

So again, where is your proof?

Prov 8:22, 30 speaks about the pre-human Jesus as working alongside his Father in creation. They were a team. (Gen 1:26) All things came from God through his son. Do you understand "agency"?

Col 1:15, 16 tells us that Jesus..."is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."

As "firstborn of all creation" Jesus cannot be God. Someone who is "firstborn" had to be brought into existence. Jesus has a Father who naturally existed before him and was responsible for creating him.

In Rev 3:14 Jesus is said to be "the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God".

There is more scripture contradicting your view than supporting it I'm afraid. Unless you believe the Bible contradicts itself?

All things were created THROUGH JESUS!!!

See 1 Corinthians 8:6.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6....."For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him."

This scripture actually proves you wrong. The "one God" is identified as "the Father" and the one Lord, Jesus Christ" is not included in that designation. Jesus is not Jehovah...he is a completely separate entity. He never once claimed equality with his God and Father. So let's not go through all this again OK?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome......there will not be a different outcome.
Jesus is who he said he was.....NOT GOD BUT THE SON OF GOD.

Oh how I love the Word of God!

You might love it...but it doesn't mean that you interpret it correctly...sorry.

You can believe whatever you wish, but you have to accept the fact that not everyone is going to agree with you. Ramming it down their throats is not going to help.

 

[Windwalker]

You thought I did not understand the trinity doctrine. I take it you get it now that I do. You thought I did not understand modalism. I take it now that you think I do except you do not think I understand your particular false denomination's view on modalism?

No, I take it you understand neither. I asked you for references that support what you claim modalism is. Where are these? All I hear is you making incorrect and inaccurate statements with no backing whatsoever. Surely, you have some to be so bold in your pronouncements? Where's your source material? Who are you reading? What documentation? Which brand of Christian denomination do you associate yourself with? What's its name and history?

I take it now that you think I do except you do not think I understand your particular false denomination's view on modalism?

My false denomination? That's rich. I said nothing of what my views are. I wouldn't even attempt to open that can of worms with you considering how unaware you are of even the most basic views here. I can tell you though I do know what modalism teaches however, and what you are saying is nothing I've ever heard anyone but you claim, that modalism says the Father, Son, and Spirit only exist in one state, or mode at a time. You are saying you're right and they are wrong, but are mistaken in what they teach. You are in fact teaching the same thing from what I've read you say.

 

[JM2C]

How long have I been explaining it to you and you still don't understand?
You are a trinitarian and as a trinitarian, you say there are three different gods which equal One God.
However, that make a three-headed god.
There are three, but the three are One and the same.

If I follow your thinking ”three different gods” because you misunderstood the meaning of the English word “distinct”. You though that “distinct” from each other as ”three different gods”.

I guess you did NOT understand the meaning of Deuteronomy 6:4 "Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah" the word “Elohim” being plural shows that God the Lord, is more than one, yet is "ONE Jehovah". Echad: a united ONE, and not Yachid: an only one.

How can a Trinitarian believe in ”three different gods” if it says in Ex 20:3 “You shall have no other/different/heteros gods before me.”

Another example is:
Jn 14:16 And I/Jesus will pray the Father, and he shall give you another/ALLOS Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,

Jn 14:17 even the Spirit [HOLY SPIRIT] of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.

The word “ANOTHER” in verse 16 in Greek is “ALLOS” or THE SAME and not the other word “ANOTHER/DIFFERENT” or “HETEROS” like the one in Exo 20:3 “You shall have no other/different/heteros gods before me.”

Verse 16 says: “And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you “ANOTHER/THE SAME/ALLOS” as the same as the Lord Jesus Christ, and that is, the “HOLY SPIRIT” in verse 17 “even the Spirit [HOLY SPIRIT]” and NOT the other word “ANOTHER/DIFFERENT/HETEROS” like you were suggesting that Trinitarians “say there are three different gods”

In JUST ONE VERSE in verse 16 it says “I/the Lord Jesus or Son of God” and the “Father or God the Father” and the “Comforter or God the Holy Spirit”, three distinguishable Persons or the "TRINITY", but from the Greek word “ALLOS”, in this verse, these three distinguishable Persons are not different/HETEROS from each other like you were suggesting that Trinitarians “say there are three different gods”

You see how you misunderstood it.

 

[Yes]

When you make categorical statements like this, we rightly expect you to supply scripture to back them up.
Where is the scripture that says Jesus' spirit is God's spirit?

There is only one Spirit.

The scriptures tell us that God gave holy spirit to his son at his baptism, thereafter Jesus could perform miracles. If Jesus was God in the flesh then why would he need an anointing with holy spirit? There is no record of Jesus being able to do any supernatural things before his baptism at 30 years of age.
Jesus' Spirit is the Holy Spirit. The scriptures says that Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to Elizabeth when Jesus was still in Mary's womb.

Romans 11:33-36..."Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen." (NASB)

Paul is quoting Isaiah 41:11 which is indeed speaking about YHWH.
Where does it say anything that remotely speaks about Jesus in this verse? YHWH is the Creator and he used the agency of his firstborn son in creating all things. You are reading what you want to see into that verse. Inference is not something you can build a belief on. If there is no categorical statement, then you can read into scripture anything you like. Many do exactly what you do....it doesn't make them right.

In context....Hebrews 2:9-11 "But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren" (NASB)

So again, where is your proof?

Prov 8:22, 30 speaks about the pre-human Jesus as working alongside his Father in creation. They were a team. (Gen 1:26) All things came from God through his son. Do you understand "agency"?

Col 1:15, 16 tells us that Jesus..."is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."

As "firstborn of all creation" Jesus cannot be God. Someone who is "firstborn" had to be brought into existence. Jesus has a Father who naturally existed before him and was responsible for creating him.

In Rev 3:14 Jesus is said to be "the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God".

There is more scripture contradicting your view than supporting it I'm afraid. Unless you believe the Bible contradicts itself?



1 Corinthians 8:5-6....."For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him."

This scripture actually proves you wrong. The "one God" is identified as "the Father" and the one Lord, Jesus Christ" is not included in that designation. Jesus is not Jehovah...he is a completely separate entity. He never once claimed equality with his God and Father. So let's not go through all this again OK?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome......there will not be a different outcome.
Jesus is who he said he was.....NOT GOD BUT THE SON OF GOD.



You might love it...but it doesn't mean that you interpret it correctly...sorry.

You can believe whatever you wish, but you have to accept the fact that not everyone is going to agree with you. Ramming it down their throats is not going to help.

The one scripture says that all things were made through Jesus, and the other scripture says all things were made through God.

You deny God's Truth.

 

[Yes]

No, I take it you understand neither. I asked you for references that support what you claim modalism is. Where are these? All I hear is you making incorrect and inaccurate statements with no backing whatsoever. Surely, you have some to be so bold in your pronouncements? Where's your source material? Who are you reading? What documentation? Which brand of Christian denomination do you associate yourself with? What's its name and history?

Why don't you go search some more? You are the one who denies the truth. You need to do some more searching, since you do not accept it when it is handed to you.

 

[Yes]

If I follow your thinking ”three different gods” because you misunderstood the meaning of the English word “distinct”. You though that “distinct” from each other as ”three different gods”.

I guess you did NOT understand the meaning of Deuteronomy 6:4 "Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah" the word “Elohim” being plural shows that God the Lord, is more than one, yet is "ONE Jehovah". Echad: a united ONE, and not Yachid: an only one.

How can a Trinitarian believe in ”three different gods” if it says in Ex 20:3 “You shall have no other/different/heteros gods before me.”

Another example is:
Jn 14:16 And I/Jesus will pray the Father, and he shall give you another/ALLOS Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,

Jn 14:17 even the Spirit [HOLY SPIRIT] of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.

The word “ANOTHER” in verse 16 in Greek is “ALLOS” or THE SAME and not the other word “ANOTHER/DIFFERENT” or “HETEROS” like the one in Exo 20:3 “You shall have no other/different/heteros gods before me.”

Verse 16 says: “And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you “ANOTHER/THE SAME/ALLOS” as the same as the Lord Jesus Christ, and that is, the “HOLY SPIRIT” in verse 17 “even the Spirit [HOLY SPIRIT]” and NOT the other word “ANOTHER/DIFFERENT/HETEROS” like you were suggesting that Trinitarians “say there are three different gods”

In JUST ONE VERSE in verse 16 it says “I/the Lord Jesus or Son of God” and the “Father or God the Father” and the “Comforter or God the Holy Spirit”, three distinguishable Persons or the "TRINITY", but from the Greek word “ALLOS”, in this verse, these three distinguishable Persons are not different/HETEROS from each other like you were suggesting that Trinitarians “say there are three different gods”

You see how you misunderstood it.

Jesus said that he would send another comforter, the Holy Spirit. He also said that he would not leave them as orphans that HE WILL COME TO THEM.

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.


This is at the time Jesus told them that he would send them another comforter. Jesus explains to them that it is HE.

It is Jesus' Spirit!

The Spirit of Jesus Christ lives in us.

 

[Windwalker]

Why don't you go search some more? You are the one who denies the truth. You need to do some more searching, since you do not accept it when it is handed to you.

You've not handed me anything. I actually know very well what they teach, as I have a degree in theology and was part of their organization a number of years ago. I taught this stuff. So, you are wrong.

At this point for you to continue, you just look foolish.

 

[JM2C]

Jesus said that he would send another comforter, the Holy Spirit. He also said that he would not leave them as orphans that HE WILL COME TO THEM.

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

This is at the time Jesus told them that he would send them another comforter. Jesus explains to them that it is HE.

It is Jesus' Spirit!

The Spirit of Jesus Christ lives in us.

Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God.

If the Lord “Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God” then He/Jesus is God and not just any other/different/heteros gods like you were suggesting that Trinitarians “say there are three different gods”

 

[Yes]

You've not handed me anything. I actually know very well what they teach, as I have a degree in theology and was part of their organization a number of years ago. I taught this stuff. So, you are wrong.

At this point for you to continue, you just look foolish.

It is there for you to find if you truly want to learn.

 

[Yes]

If the Lord “Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God” then He/Jesus is God and not just any other/different/heteros gods like you were suggesting that Trinitarians “say there are three different gods”

That is right. Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God. The trinitarians DENY that truth.
The trinitarians say Jesus is not the Holy Spirit

 

[Windwalker]

It is there for you to find if you truly want to learn.

I already have. It is apparent to me, and everyone else, you have not.

 

[sojourner]

That is right. Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God. The trinitarians DENY that truth.
The trinitarians say Jesus is not the Holy Spirit

But the Holy Spirit is God, just as Jesus is God and the Father is God. Each person is the one God. All three are the one God.

 

[JayJayDee]

There is only one Spirit.

And there is not one scripture that states that the holy spirit is God. Nor is there a scripture that states that the holy spirit is Jesus. You assume that from reading it into the verses you choose, whilst ignoring the rest.
I understand that you have come to this conclusion by your own reasoning...but it fights with the rest of scripture. You are staring at a few pixels whilst ignoring the whole picture.

The one scripture says that all things were made through Jesus, and the other scripture says all things were made through God.

You deny God's Truth.

Oh please....come down of your high horse. Your belief is your belief, not the truth that everyone else must have drummed into them

No one is denying the truth except the one making assumptions by using faulty reasoning. God is the one who is the Creator.....there is only one Creator and one who was used by him as his "master workman".
Have you read Prov 8:30?

Proverbs 8:30, 31...."Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, Rejoicing in the world, His earth, And having my delight in the sons of men."

Gen 1:26 indicates that there was more than one person used in creation. When God says "let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness", he was addressing his "master workman". Why is this so hard for you to comprehend? They were are still are two entirely separate individuals.

I know you will never admit it...but I believe that you are dead wrong.

 

[Yes]

But the Holy Spirit is God, just as Jesus is God and the Father is God. Each person is the one God. All three are the one God.

Jesus is the Holy Spirit. Jesus is God. Since Jesus is God, he is God the Father. There are three and the three are One and the same.

 

[Yes]

And there is not one scripture that states that the holy spirit is God.

1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;


2 Corinthians 6:16
What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."

Nor is there a scripture that states that the holy spirit is Jesus.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

Oh please....come down of your high horse. Your belief is your belief, not the truth that everyone else must have drummed into them

Don't give worthless opinions about Jesus and the Bible if you do not do what Jesus says to know.[/QUOTE]

 

[JayJayDee]

1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

Here you go again....your math is a little skewed. Do you know how many of your beliefs are based on mathematical calculations where you have the numbers wrong in the first place? You use the 1+1 method to get 3.

Being a "temple of the holy spirit" meant having the anointing of God's spirit, which like the original temple, was inhabited by God's spirit, not God himself. The Creator cannot dwell in hand made temples. His presence in the Holy of Holies was indicated by the Shekinah Light. God spoke from above the cherubs atop the Ark of the Covenant.
He spoke to mankind by the "light" that he sent into the world...his most precious son. Just as the Shekinah light was not Jehovah, so the "light" that he sent into the world was not Jehovah either, but his representative.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 "Have ye not known that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own, for ye were bought with a price; glorify, then, God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's." (From the YLT)

Do you ever use more than one translation?

2 Corinthians 6:16
What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."

How was God "with" his people in pre-Christian times when they had a literal temple? How did God direct his nation before Messiah came?

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

Who is "the Lord" mentioned here? Any wonder people get confused when they don't know the difference between "the Lord Jesus" and "the Lord Jehovah".

So, OK....where in those scriptures, or any others, do we see God telling us that he is three different aspects in one godhead? Where in all of scripture will I find one direct statement of what you assume is true. The scriptures you present are not direct statements but ambiguous verses that could mean a number of things depending on the slant you wish to give them.
As I mentioned before, if we have clear unequivocal statements that make a triune godhead impossible, then the ambiguous statements must be false. They are arrived at by faulty reasoning and a dire need for the cherished belief to be true....despite the fact that they don't hold water.

If you had the correct understanding of who God is; who his son is; what their relationship is and the mechanics of the ransom, you could not come to the conclusions that you have reached. But that is your choice.

You quote scripture as if everyone reads it as you do...they don't, and I don't see one single piece of evidence that you have provided by way of scripture that says directly what you want it to say. That is the truth of it.

Don't give worthless opinions about Jesus and the Bible if you do not do what Jesus says to know.

Why do you resort to this kind of response? It makes your position look even more foolish. Many are probably thinking your own opinions are worthless......we all have a point of view and we have the freedom to present them....but we don't have the right to tell people what to believe.

Everyone can believe whatever they wish. If God allows them the choice...why can't you?