Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[Unification]

A head covering Paul said was a sign that a woman recognised her place in Jehovah's arrangement. Headship is an integral part of that arrangement.

“I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.” (1 Cor 11:3-7)

Women were not permitted to teach in the congregations in Bible times. They had their assigned place as "helper and complement" in spiritual matters in the congregation and at home and in worship, and if we keep to Jehovah's arrangement, we will enjoy peace and blessings.....which we do.

Headship is a loving arrangement, not a dictatorship. A man was to love his wife as Christ did the congregation. There is the role model.

In other words, you are in subjection to man, and not Jehovah?

The head of every man(soul)(mankind-male and female) is Christ (spirit), in turn the head of the woman(body/mind/heart) is man(soul)(mankind-both male and female.) In turn, the head of Christ is God.

Be in subjection to the Spirit, not mankind.

Looking online, I read many horror stories of how males treat females in JW congregations and homes, along with many ther deficit and vain sects all over the world. This is not just, equal, or of balance measure. This is an abomination. "In the Lord" is much different than "in the earthly wisdom of subjection."

For no man ever hated his OWN BODY, the weaker vessel.

 

[Katzpur]

Indeed. Good question. He certainly didn't see three.

Oh come on now. You can do better than that. I've never seen a question yet you don't have an answer to.

 

[katiemygirl]

"Kolibri, post: 4165841, member: 55852"]The issue isn't whether they both can be called gods legitimately. The original words translated God likely only mean "mighty one(s)" or "strong one(s)." And false gods were ones that had no power to prove their existence. But the teaching that "Jesus Is God" is deceptive. People who say Jesus is God are usually promoting that Jesus is the Almighty God, that no one has more power than he does. At most, all legitimately powerful ones are secondary in power to Jehovah, the Almighty. In comparison to Jehovah, there is no God - that is, no one as mighty or mightier than him, not then, not now, not ever.

It seems silly that those of us who are basically saying that Jesus and Jehovah are both "mighty" are debating whether or not they are both Almighty and somehow the "same" "mighty one".

Jesus is Almighty God!

It is Jesus who is coming with the clouds. Every eye will see him, even those who pierced him. Rev:1:7

It is Jesus who is to come. It is Jesus who says he is the Alpha and the Omega. It is Jesus who says He is the Almighty! Rev. 1:8

It is Jesus who is coming to render to every man according to what he has done. Rev. 22:12

It is Jesus who says I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Rev. 22:13

It is Jesus who says "I am the first and the last, and the living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore..." Rev. 22:17-18

It is Jesus who testifies to these things saying, "I am coming quickly." Rev. 22:20

Jesus Christ is Lord God!

 

[cataway]

Jesus is Almighty God!

It is Jesus who is coming with the clouds. Every eye will see him, even those who pierced him. Rev:1:7

It is Jesus who is to come. It is Jesus who says he is the Alpha and the Omega. It is Jesus who says He is the Almighty! Rev. 1:8

It is Jesus who is coming to render to every man according to what he has done. Rev. 22:12

It is Jesus who says I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Rev. 22:13

It is Jesus who says "I am the first and the last, and the living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore..." Rev. 22:17-18

It is Jesus who testifies to these things saying, "I am coming quickly." Rev. 22:20

Jesus Christ is Lord God!

nope

 

[katiemygirl]

nope

Yup! I just proved it with Scripture. If you think I'm wrong, let's see you prove it. You're very good at disagreeing, but very weak in substantiating what you believe with Scripture.

 

[melk]

Yup! I just proved it with Scripture. If you think I'm wrong, let's see you prove it. You're very good at disagreeing, but very weak in substantiating what you believe with Scripture.

If you want a better answer, why dont you try not ignore the other posters?

 

[katiemygirl]

If you Sant a better answer, why dont you try not ignore the other posters?

If you have a better answer than "nope," I would love to hear it. If I ignored you, it was not intentionally. I haven't read all of the posts.

 

[The Real Milk Man]

Rev. 1:4-5, John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood -

Rev. 1:8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega,"says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

 

[katiemygirl]

This raises another question... When Stephen saw "the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of God," what exactly did he see? Did he see one individual or two?

God can be one, two or three individuals at any given time.

Stephen saw two manifestations of God.

God can occupy more than one location at a time. Just because we can't do that doesn't mean God cannot. With God all things are possible.

Emmanuel = God with us

God was both in heaven and on earth at the same time.

 

[The Real Milk Man]

With God all things are possible.

Matthew 17:20

Psalm 136:2

 

[Katzpur]

God can be one, two or three individuals at any given time.

You're saying this is biblical? If He can be one individual, what happens to the other two meanwhile?

Stephen saw two manifestations of God.

In other words, he saw two physically identifiable individuals, either of which could be addressed as "God" because they share that title.

God can occupy more than one location at a time. Just because we can't do that doesn't mean God cannot. With God all things are possible.

When Jesus Christ was on earth, was He able to be in more than one location at a time?

God was both in heaven and on earth at the same time.

Yes, the Father was in Heaven. The Son was on Earth.

 

[melk]

I am nothing, I don't get anywhere. I plant seeds in one's mind, the Lord gives the growth. I'm not concerned with how far "I" will get. "I" don't matter. "I" have been brought low and humbled. What matter's is the Lord's will being done through me, the transformation of others life, helping the lost, and needy, to seek the Lord properly, and sowing things to the Spirit within me to reap after the hour my Lord takes my physical life. I know and trust in God.

Hi, unification.
I think we kind of had a similar history, on being brought low and humbled, so as to realize by ourselves that we are nothing and valorize the spiritual realm.

You have said so, one should never rely on their own feelings, thoughts, ideas, beliefs. One should rely on the Lord's teaching which is in Spirit and truth. If one can't even rely upon themselves, why are they resolving to the teachings and reliance of other men? Cursed be the man who puts his trust in man. If one doesn't believe that a new, circumsised heart is created when the Lord is reigning in ones life, and that the Lord doesn't have the power to transform a man within, and his heart, there is no hope. The entire scriptures talk about the transformation of mankind within. The head of gold was the confused ego/reputation of oneself sitting upon their own throne. Yes, church buildings and mankind have dominion of over God's people. Those outward and vain kingdoms do replace the true kingdom, which is within. Mindkind's kingdoms are all created within themselves and need destroyed, brought low, humbled, brought to nothing, brought to desolation. God's empire is of spirit and truth and power to transform. While one can live their lives in vain in "hopes" for a kingdom after this life.... One should be finding the truth and life in this life, and know and experience this.

Our similar trajetory seems to continue, in that we have difficult on relying on men's words and churches buildings and mankind dominion over God's people. As you said and I believe, "those outward and vain kingdoms do replace the true kingdom, which is within".
However, let's not our trajetory distort reality, so that we fall in the oposite ground of the desirable: the black and white view. We have to dose love to our critical view relative to the history of christianity, remembering that for each abominable act practiced, there must have been many holly ones, for each false christian pointed out, there must have been many good ones.
As for the JW, I think you are being pretty unfair. Their theology may emphatize legality, but they usually mix it with lots of love. Their hope for a "kingdom" doesnt make them greedy or power hunters, on the contrary. They surely are less agressive and more peaciful than the average christian, including you and me. I learn a lot with them.
We must run away from the black and white view, otherwise we will lose the kingdom inside and return to our pharisee condition.

 

[Unification]

Hi, unification.
I think we kind of had a similar history, on being brought low and humbled, so as to realize by ourselves that we are nothing and valorize the spiritual realm.



Our similar trajetory seems to continue, in that we have difficult on relying on men's words and churches buildings and mankind dominion over God's people. As you said and I believe, "those outward and vain kingdoms do replace the true kingdom, which is within".
However, let's not our trajetory distort reality, so that we fall in the oposite ground of the desirable: the black and white view. We have to dose love to our critical view relative to the history of christianity, remembering that for each abominable act practiced, there must have been many holly ones, for each false christian pointed out, there must have been many good ones.
As for the JW, I think you are being pretty unfair. Their theology may emphatize legality, but they usually mix it with lots of love. Their hope for a "kingdom" doesnt make them greedy or power hunters, on the contrary. They surely are less agressive and more peaciful than the average christian, including you and me. I learn a lot with them.
We must run away from the black and white view, otherwise we will lose the kingdom inside and return to our pharisee condition.

Thank you for the reply, and peace and many blessings to you. I thank the Lord always for molding and teaching me, bringing me low, for disciplining me, punishing me, as should all. All humans' are seen as one in spirit. We all have one God, one Lord, one spirit, one body, flesh, bones, blood, a heart, a mind. Sinners are "good" people for the most part as well. A lot of sinners would give their lives for others, and genuinely do good and pure acts for others sometimes. What is sewn to the spirit is reaped, good and evil, by any human. It's never a battle against humans', there is good in all. Deep below the carnal mind, beastly flesh, ego, pride, etc there is genuine good that comes from the Spirit. It's a battle of the things that they do. Not them as people. When it comes to God, who can tame their own tongue of falsity? Ask how a JW is treated if they leave their religion or dare try to bring revelation to a "leader" or dare go up against any of their doctrine. This is not love. This is fear and control, and not truth and life, scared to leave their lives behind because they'd lose everything. There are good people everywhere, even the sinners' duty is to love and help others. . Which they do a lot. I'm not taught to view any human by the religion they claim, whether it be Christian, JW, Islam, Judaism, Mormom, etc. I see them as people, humans, that struggle internally daily with everyone else, a battle of their will vs God's will, right from wrong, black and white, light and darkness, deception and truth. The Lord wants everyone and all to come to him for rest and love and peace, truth, and life.

 

[katiemygirl]

You're saying this is biblical? If He can be one individual, what happens to the other two meanwhile?

It is absolutely Biblical. God is three persons, yet ONE God. Each is God by divine nature. They are equal. Each is omnipresent. The Holy Spirit dwells in all believers. At this moment, Jesus is seated at the right hand of God in heaven. Yet he promised to be with us always. That puts Jesus in more than one place at one time.

In other words, he saw two physically identifiable individuals, either of which could be addressed as "God" because they share that title.

What do you think the title GOD means?

When Jesus Christ was on earth, was He able to be in more than one location at a time?

Was he able? Absolutely!
He was able to do anything he chose to do, including raising himself from the dead. Jesus is God Almighty! Did he choose to manifest himself in two places at once while in his human form? Not to my knowledge. But we know that at this moment in time, he is in more than one place.

You seem to forget that “In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Col. 2:9 According to this verse, Jesus Christ is God Incarnate. He embodies all of God. The same is said in Col. 1:19. “God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him.

Yes, the Father was in Heaven. The Son was on Earth.

And both are God: creator, savior, sovereign, eternal, all powerful, Almighty

 

[Katzpur]

It is absolutely Biblical. God is three persons, yet ONE God. Each is God by divine nature.

Agreed.

They are equal.

In one respect they are; in another they aren't.

Each is omnipresent.

Again, in one respect they are; in another they aren't. It depends on whether you're speaking of functional or ontological omnipresence.

The Holy Spirit dwells in all believers.

I would essentially agree with this.

At this moment, Jesus is seated at the right hand of God in heaven.

And yet you don't believe God has a right hand or a left. You don't believe He has a form at all. If Jesus exists in a spacial relationship to His Father, they are sitting side by side, each in a specific place.

Yet he promised to be with us always. That puts Jesus in more than one place at one time.

His spirit can obviously be felt in more than one place at once. It can be felt simultaneously in a Catholic mass and in an LDS temple. But have you ever seen Him physically at your place of worship?

What do you think the title GOD means?

I already answered that. But you didn't return the favor.

Was he able? Absolutely!

And yet it never once happened. When Jesus wanted to be somewhere, He traveled by foot or by boat. He was never once seen by anyone in two places at once. Now His power is another matter. His power clearly extends throughout the universe at all times. He stood on a boat in a storm on the Sea of Galilee in the midst of a storm and commanded the elements to "be still." He didn't have to touch the water. He didn't need to go from one part of the lake to another in order to instantly have the elements obey Him. He was not ontologically present in two places at once, but He was functionally present in two places at once.

He was able to do anything he chose to do, including raising himself from the dead. Jesus is God Almighty! Did he choose to manifest himself in two places at once while in his human form? Not to my knowledge. But we know that at this moment in time, he is in more than one place.

Not physically, He's not. Hot ontologically.

You seem to forget that “In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Col. 2:9 According to this verse, Jesus Christ is God Incarnate. He embodies all of God. The same is said in Col. 1:19. “God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him.

Not once have I forgotten that.

And both are God: creator, savior, sovereign, eternal, all powerful, Almighty

You are absolutely right. They are.

 

[katiemygirl]

In one respect they are; in another they aren't.

In what respect are they not equal?

Again, in one respect they are; in another they aren't. It depends on whether you're speaking of functional or ontological omnipresence.

God is omnipresent in every respect. I don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about, functional, ontological? Must be Mormon lingo.

And yet you don't believe God has a right hand or a left. You don't believe He has a form at all. If Jesus exists in a spacial relationship to His Father, they are sitting side by side, each in a specific place.
His spirit can obviously be felt in more than one place at once. It can be felt simultaneously in a Catholic mass and in an LDS temple. But have you ever seen Him physically at your place of worship?

No I've never seen Jesus physically. I know He is present when we assemble because He promised He would be

I believe God is what the Bible says He is.
"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth." John 4:24

The Bible does not say that God has a "physical" form. Book, chapter, verse please.

I already answered that. But you didn't return the favor.

I asked the question in both threads. I haven't had a chance to answer. I'll look later.

And yet it never once happened. When Jesus wanted to be somewhere, He traveled by foot or by boat. He was never once seen by anyone in two places at once. Now His power is another matter. His power clearly extends throughout the universe at all times. He stood on a boat in a storm on the Sea of Galilee in the midst of a storm and commanded the elements to "be still." He didn't have to touch the water. He didn't need to go from one part of the lake to another in order to instantly have the elements obey Him. He was not ontologically present in two places at once, but He was functionally present in two places at once.

He didn't need it to happen. If he had chosen to be in two places at once, he would have been. He, obviously saw no reason to be. That in no way diminishes the fact that He is omnipresent.

Not physically, He's not. Hot ontologically.

I never suggested Jesus was physically omnipresent.

 

[JayJayDee]

Oh come on now. You can do better than that. I've never seen a question yet you don't have an answer to.

I have engaged you before many times Katzpur...it never ends well.
Please forgive my reticence to respond.....but since you asked.....

We have always believed that Jehovah and his son are two entirely separate entities and always have been. The scriptures never blur the line between them....man has done that under the devil's influence so that humans are fooled into breaking God's law by substituting the son for the Father, placing them on equal footing and then placing the holy spirit in a man-made "left hand" position....something scripture never does.
This is why those whom Jesus rejects at the judgment are called "workers of lawlessness". (Matt 7:21-23) They have broken God's law by having another "god" in the same place as Jehovah. The Almighty has no equal.

Both are mighty spirits but only one of them is the Father, who is called "the King of Eternity". Jehovah "alone" was to be given worship. (Luke 4:8.) When Jesus said "it is written" he quoted Deuteronomy and the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) was in that verse.

Since Jesus is God's "only begotten son", he is a creation, (Col 1:15, 16; Rev 3:14) He is not, and never has been anything but "the son of God" as opposed to many others who are also called "sons of God". He holds a unique position it is true, but not one of equality. It is impossible for any created being to be equal to his Creator.

So there are two seen in heaven, but only one is "ho theos", clearly identified in John 1:1. The title "god" can apply to Jesus as a begotten "mighty one", (John 1:18) but the title "Almighty" belongs to the Father alone.

 

[Katzpur]

In what respect are they not equal?

I already answered that. I said, "Jesus Christ himself said that the Father is greater than He. He said that the Father sent Him and that He does the will of the Father. He also said that only the Father knows the date of His Second Coming. This distinction appears to exist in the past, present and future tenses. So, I believe the Son will always consider himself subordinate to the Father. In terms of what makes them divine, they are equal. In other words, the Father is no more 'godly' than the Son."

God is omnipresent in every respect. I don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about, functional, ontological? Must be Mormon lingo.

It's not Mormon lingo. It's just a word you're apparently unfamiliar with. If you don't know what I'm talking about, how is it that you answered my question anyway?

No I've never seen Jesus physically. I know He is present when we assemble because He promised He would be

Yes, but He is not physically present. Otherwise you'd see Him. You feel His presence and his power.

[quote[I believe God is what the Bible says He is.
"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth." John 4:24[/quote]Well, I'll be damned. I believe God is what the Bible says He is, too!

The Bible does not say that God has a "physical" form. Book, chapter, verse please.

It certainly does imply it. But this is too comprehensive for me to take the time to address it right now.

I asked the question in both threads. I haven't had a chance to answer. I'll look later.

Thank you. I'll be watching for your post.

He didn't need it to happen. If he had chosen to be in two places at once, he would have been. He, obviously saw no reason to be. That in no way diminishes the fact that He is omnipresent.

Obviously He didn't need it to happen!!!! Why not? Because His power was omnipresent. That's all that really matters. He doesn't need to be physically present in any one place in order for Him to have power over the entire universe.

I never suggested Jesus was physically omnipresent.

Well, of course you did. You said, "If he had chosen to be in two places at once, he would have been." Had that been the case, He would have been physically omnipresent. (Ontologically omnipresent means essentially the same thing.) Instead He was functionally omnipresent. While He is physically sitting on the right hand of His Father, He functions as if He were present everywhere.

 

[melk]

Thank you for the reply, and peace and many blessings to you.

Hi, unification. Peace and blessings for you too.

It's a battle of the things that they do. Not them as people. When it comes to God, who can tame their own tongue of falsity? Ask how a JW is treated if they leave their religion or dare try to bring revelation to a "leader" or dare go up against any of their doctrine. This is not love. This is fear and control, and not truth and life, scared to leave their lives behind because they'd lose everything.

.
Seems you have a preference for criticizing JW. Jesus tought us to judge by the fruits. I dont know any JW or ex-JW in the real world, but through this forum, I kind of have an idea. Ex-JW mostly have difficulties in overcoming the experience, becoming led by resentiment, usually fed by other "christians". Actual JW like to expose their doctrine, not because of fear, but because they really love it and find the truth in it.
Surely there seems to be a control that kind of bothers me, as there is in much of the ortodox religious structures. But it is up to them to judge it.

I'm not taught to view any human by the religion they claim, whether it be Christian, JW, Islam, Judaism, Mormom, etc. I see them as people, humans, that struggle internally daily with everyone else, a battle of their will vs God's will, right from wrong, black and white, light and darkness, deception and truth. The Lord wants everyone and all to come to him for rest and love and peace, truth, and life.

Agreed. I myself am a christian that flirts with buddhism. I think people are led to evil more by ignorance than by wickedness itself. And I hate the idea of eternal hell, because it seems to contradict God's love for us.

 

[Katzpur]

I have engaged you before many times Katzpur...it never ends well.

You got that one right.

Please forgive my reticence to respond.....but since you asked.....

That's okay. I'm pretty reticent to respond to your posts, too.

We have always believed that Jehovah and his son are two entirely separate entities and always have been. The scriptures never blur the line between them....man has done that under the devil's influence so that humans are fooled into breaking God's law by substituting the son for the Father, placing them on equal footing and then placing the holy spirit in a man-made "left hand" position....something scripture never does.
This is why those whom Jesus rejects at the judgment are called "workers of lawlessness". (Matt 7:21-23) They have broken God's law by having another "god" in the same place as Jehovah. The Almighty has no equal.

Both are mighty spirits but only one of them is the Father, who is called "the King of Eternity". Jehovah "alone" was to be given worship. (Luke 4:8.) When Jesus said "it is written" he quoted Deuteronomy and the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) was in that verse.

Since Jesus is God's "only begotten son", he is a creation, (Col 1:15, 16; Rev 3:14) He is not, and never has been anything but "the son of God" as opposed to many others who are also called "sons of God". He holds a unique position it is true, but not one of equality. It is impossible for any created being to be equal to his Creator.

So there are two seen in heaven, but only one is "ho theos", clearly identified in John 1:1. The title "god" can apply to Jesus as a begotten "mighty one", (John 1:18) but the title "Almighty" belongs to the Father alone.

That's all very interesting, and it does have similarities to Mormon thought -- particularly that "[the Father] and the Son are two entirely separate entities and always have been." From your answer, I'm assuming you to believe Stephen saw two beings. I could ask how he managed to see the one that is supposedly invisible, but I've got my hands full with another fun poster right now. Can't take on too much at once, you know.