Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[Katzpur]

Yup! I just proved it with Scripture.

I hate to burst your bubble, but to date, nobody has ever proven anything with Scripture.

 

[katiemygirl]

"Katzpur, post: 4166900, member: 2540"]I already answered that. I said, "Jesus Christ himself said that the Father is greater than He. He said that the Father sent Him and that He does the will of the Father. He also said that only the Father knows the date of His Second Coming. This distinction appears to exist in the past, present and future tenses. So, I believe the Son will always consider himself subordinate to the Father. In terms of what makes them divine, they are equal. In other words, the Father is no more 'godly' than the Son."

Jesus was God, but he was also a man. As a man, he was in a lower position than the Father, and that is what he meant when he said the Father was greater than he. He was divine by nature, but didn't consider his equality as something to hold onto. Jesus said he emptied himself taking on the form of a bondservant. Phil. 2:5-8.

All three Persons of the Godhead are equal in nature. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit all have the same divine nature and divine attributes. There is no difference in the nature or essence of the three persons of the Godhead. Jesus is not a lesser god than the Father. The three persons of the trinity voluntarily submit to each other, respecting the roles each performs.

It's not Mormon lingo. It's just a word you're apparently unfamiliar with. If you don't know what I'm talking about, how is it that you answered my question anyway?

I read your explanation in your later comments.

Yes, but He is not physically present. Otherwise you'd see Him. You feel His presence and his power.

Never said he was physically present.

Well, I'll be damned. I believe God is what the Bible says He is, too!

No you don't. You believe God is physical, flesh and bones. You also believe that God was not always the supreme being. The Bible says no such thing!

 

[Katzpur]

Jesus was God, but he was also a man. As a man, he was in a lower position than the Father, and that is what he meant when he said the Father was greater than he. He was divine by nature, but didn't consider his equality as something to hold onto. Jesus said he emptied himself taking on the form of a bondservant. Phil. 2:5-8.

Jesus obeyed His Father from before the foundations of this world. He did His Father's will while on earth. Even today, He acknowledges that His Father has some knowledge He doesn't have. If you believe that somewhere along the line things changed, you'll need to provide some evidence to support your thesis.

All three Persons of the Godhead are equal in nature. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit all have the same divine nature and divine attributes. There is no difference in the nature or essence of the three persons of the Godhead.

I agree, but then I've already said that several times. I don't know why I should have to continue to to repeat myself.

Jesus is not a lesser god than the Father.

What are you telling me this for? I've never in my life referred to Jesus as a "lesser god" than His Father.

The three persons of the trinity voluntarily submit to each other, respecting the roles each performs.

Would you mind giving me an example of the Father submitting to the Son or to the Holy Ghost, please?

Never said he was physically present.

That's nice to hear.

No you don't. You believe God is physical, flesh and bones. You also believe that God was not always the supreme being. The Bible says no such thing!

Who the Hell do you think you are telling me what I believe?

 

[katiemygirl]

I hate to burst your bubble, but to date, nobody has ever proven anything with Scripture.

Of course they have. The Scriptures are absolute proof that there is a God. It's people who have the problem accepting what the Bible says. The proof is there if a person has an open heart.

 

[Katzpur]

Of course they have. The Scriptures are absolute proof that there is a God. It's people who have the problem accepting what the Bible says. The proof is there if a person has an open heart.

LOL! Oh dear, katiemygirl. Surely you're not quite that naive. The Scriptures are only proof of what you believe. They are proof that there is a God because you believe what they say. To someone who doesn't believe what they say, they aren't proof of anything! If they were absolute proof that there is a God, there wouldn't be any atheists! For crying out loud, that one's a no-brainer.

Just as an example of what I'm trying to say... I could be wrong, but if I recall correctly, you and I agree that baptism is required for salvation. You probably think that the Scriptures prove this to be the case. I'd agree that they provide some pretty compelling evidence. On the other hand, there's a thread right now over on City-Data where roughly a dozen people are claiming the scriptures say no such thing. For every verse you can quote that says baptism is required, there'll be someone out there to quote a verse that may be interpreted to say otherwise.

 

[JayJayDee]

I am nothing, I don't get anywhere. I plant seeds in one's mind, the Lord gives the growth. I'm not concerned with how far "I" will get. "I" don't matter. "I" have been brought low and humbled. What matter's is the Lord's will .

I do not doubt your sincerity, but I see that you have an almost self-imposed limit to your understanding of the scriptures in their entirety. You demonstrate little respect for God's word and that rings alarm bells with me.

If the scriptures were what Jesus based his teachings on and the apostles did too, why do you rate them so low in comparison to the "spirit within"? Surely if it was God's spirit "within", it would be in total harmony with his word. I haven't seen that. I see you trying to promote your own understanding as if it is the exclusive one with you as some kind of lone prophet crying in the wilderness.

That old chestnut?

Who said those words and to whom did he say them? If the kingdom was not "within" those to whom he spoke, then that is not what he meant.

Says, you.

No, says God's word. As the designated king of God's kingdom, Jesus was right there in their midst, but they failed to acknowledge him. In context, it can apply no other way.

Another way to phrase what Jesus said was "the kingdom of God is in your midst". This is more in keeping with what he meant.
He was speaking to the Pharisees of whom he said, "You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” (Matt 15:7-9; Isa 29:13)

Where is ones heart, within them or in their midst?
Which is more accurate, to meditate on the Lord within day in and day out as ones only teacher or rely upon mindkind's lies and teachings?

Can you prove that your own teachings are not "mankind's lies"? How would you know if what you believe is from God or the devil? Deception is what it is. A deceived person does not know.

Consult the scriptures. Jehovah has always used men to instruct his people. His worshippers were always only in one nation, as one people with one set of laws and instructions for acceptable worship. His people were to listen to their teachers and do as they said. No deviation was permitted. No matter where they lived, they were still to be spiritually separate from those around them.

The basis for God's acceptance of Israel into their covenant with him at Mt Sinai was....."Now if you will strictly obey my voice and keep my covenant, you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, for the whole earth belongs to me. You will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the Israelites.” (Ex 19:5, 6)

Their response was..."After that all the people answered unanimously: “All that Jehovah has spoken, we are willing to do.” (19:8)

God's word to his people was in written form and taught in their assembly every week. But it was transmitted to the people by human servants. (His prophets and priests) These had spiritual credentials so that the people believed that they were God's representatives on earth. They did not teach their own thoughts but were advocating God's will to his people.

What about Christianity? Did Jesus come to present himself as the new God? Hardly! He came to his own people to help them to get their worship back on track. The Pharisees had corrupted God's worship by introducing human tradition as their primary source of teaching.
He castigated these men and exposed their hypocrisy; he directed all worship to his Father and helped the spiritually lost ones in Israel to come back to him.

There are "new heavens" (ruling authority over us) and a "new earth" (new earthly society) which God has promised and in these "righteousness is to dwell" (2 Peter 3:10-13)

Indeed, this world is under the influence of the devil (mindkind-mankind). you could find this source and the only truth "within" you. What political set up do you belong to? Why am I a hated disciple and not received, exposing man's empire and teaching one to seek the Lord as ones teacher?

The devil is not only the ruler of this world but also its god. (2 Cor 4:3, 4)
What is interesting is what Paul said about this situation. He said that only "unbelievers" would be affected by his propaganda. When we come to terms with the fact that "many" who consider themselves to be good Christians are completely rejected by their "Lord" at the judgment, this makes them too, "unbelievers"....."goats". (Matt 7:21-23) They are completely unaware that they are to receive this adverse judgment until it comes. Can you tell me why?

You have said, a new heaven and earth is created inside of us, the old man gone, the new man arising. Indeed, wisdom dwells with the prudent, and our bodies are temple wherin the Spirit dwells.

The "new heaven and new earth" is not an internal experience. It is entirely physical but it is the reward for spiritual fidelity on the part of Christ's disciples.

In Isaiah it was also prophesied about a "new heaven and new earth" back then, but it was entirely physical. (Isa 65:17) Israel's homeland was devastated after their exile to Babylon. After 70 years without inhabitants it was in a sorry state. Israel had not been able to worship their God properly or hold a Passover in all that time they spent in Babylon. They had no temple so they could not sacrifice. Once their period of punishment was up, it was time to start fresh with a new generation.

When God restored them to their homeland, the first thing they did was clean up and restore their formerly beautiful land. The "new heavens" in their case was a restoration of their worship, as Jehovah was backing the remnant that returned to encourage them and to eventually rebuild their temple and get things back on track spiritually. The "new earth" in their case was a restoration of their God-given land, all to the glory of their God.

Actually Jehovah's first purpose was all earthly. Read the Genesis account and you will see that there was no mention of death or heaven and hell in any of it.

Only when Adam sinned was there a need for a redeemer, a sacrifice and a kingdom. Originally humans were ruled only by their Creator and the only way they could die was if they ate the forbidden fruit. There was no other cause of death. Humans were supposed to live on earth in the flesh forever in paradise conditions.
Read Gen 322-24 and tell me what you see.

How cliche and earthly, a human nonchalantly walked up to a tree and ate an apple, his wife being tricked by a magical talking snake. How kind of God placing a devil in paradise knowing mankind would fail. What was the devil doing in paradise?

When you say things like this, I can only shake my head. You are denigrating scripture and insulting God by making fun of the Edenic scenario as you assume it to be. You were there to know what took place, were you?

The devil was originally a faithful angel who entertained wrong desires as a free agent. Instead of keeping his place as an angel of high rank in a position of guardianship in the garden, he plotted to gain the worship he desired. He was there in the garden as part of his assignment and knew exactly when to make his move.
If you knew scripture, you would know this.

Your words here demonstrate nothing but ignorance and a putting of your own spin on the words of scripture to denigrate it because it doesn't agree with how you wish to see it. You have no idea of God's purpose because you hide under a form of mock humility. Your words above demonstrate pure arrogance IMO.

See now you're going off with the pixies. Where is this in scripture and what does it have to do with the kingdom?

The "marriage of the Lamb" (if that is what you are referring to) is the union of Christ and his bride, mentioned in Rev 21 as "new Jerusalem". This "city" is pictured as "a bride adorned for her husband", coming down out of heaven extending its rulership over the earth.
This "marriage" takes place in heaven when the full number of Christ's bride have been transformed so as to rule with him in heaven.

Precisely, you have just said the spiritual Union of husband and wife in scripture. Not earthly union. The Lord reigns inside of me, and my new Jerusalem has already been created and being created.

And perhaps this is the problem....it's all about how it pertains to you. "New Jerusalem" is not "within" anyone, any more than old Jerusalem was. It was a city that was the seat of God's worship, where his temple was located. The old Jerusalem was a pictorial example of the new....a spiritual, heavenly city, where God dwells and where his real presence is, not just a representation of it.

With the rulership of this kingdom, mankind will be brought back to God's original purpose.....having a sinless race of intelligent human creatures living in the paradise conditions he gave them in the beginning.

Precisely, I died, my ego, my mind, my reputation, my old earthly and lustful and evil ways.... And brought back to the Lord's will and not my own.

Your words suggest otherwise. Sorry.

Jesus taught us to pray..."thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven".
How does the kingdom "come" and how is God's will done "on earth as it is in heaven"? It obviously hasn't happened yet.....

Speak for yourself. Spiritual stuff is still folly to you.

Oh dear, you just don't get it do you? The spiritual stuff is fully understood by me as it is with all JW's. We know about the spiritual and the physical and we know the difference. I can't see that you do.

Who shares your beliefs? Are you a global brotherhood who are united in their worship? Do you meet regularly with fellow worshippers? Are you engaged in the global preaching work that Jesus commanded all his disciples to do?
It involves preaching the 'good news of the kingdom".....something you have not managed to define yet.

I am not even going to try and respond to the rest......

Because you can't.

There comes a point of why bother?

The only reason I am answering you in such detail is for the benefit of those who may be interested in our exchange.

Seriously, when you can give me a succinct definition of the kingdom and what it will accomplish without the waffle....let me know.

Still waiting for a succinct answer to this question. No answer forthcoming so far.

 

[Katzpur]

I was expecting one of your rants. You didn't disappoint me. Gee whiz girl! Don't those Mormons teach you better than to lose your cool at the drop of a hat?

A rant? What am I supposed to say when you start telling me what I believe? Nobody here needs you to tell them what Mormons believe -- least of all me! People here know that they have a reliable source of information in me. Most of them also know that I don't tolerate random, off-topic digs at my faith. I'm more than willing to discuss my beliefs with you at the proper time and in the proper place, but I will continue to "rant" (if that's what you want to call it) when you have the audacity to tell me or anyone else what Mormons believe.

So go ahead and tell me that you don't believe God is physical, having flesh and bones.

And tell me you don't believe God wasn't always the supreme being.

I'm not going to address either of these questions on this thread. This thread is about the Trinity, not about Mormonism. You want to ask questions about Mormonism? Go to the LDS DIR and we'll talk to your heart's delight. You want to tell me what Mormons believe? I suggest you not go there on any thread that isn't specifically about what Mormons believe. Off-topic references to what you think about Mormonism will be reported in the future.

 

[JayJayDee]

You got that one right.

That's okay. I'm pretty reticent to respond to your posts, too.

That's all very interesting, and it does have similarities to Mormon thought -- particularly that "[the Father] and the Son are two entirely separate entities and always have been." From your answer, I'm assuming you to believe Stephen saw two beings. I could ask how he managed to see the one that is supposedly invisible, but I've got my hands full with another fun poster right now. Can't take on too much at once, you know.

The answer to that is simple.....what Stephen saw was a vision, not an actual portal into heaven. "No man has ever seen God" according to the apostle John. (John 1:18) He also saw God in heavenly vision as recorded in Revelation. Ezekiel did too.

No third person has ever been seen at God's left hand, so no trinity, even though Stephen was "filled" with holy spirit. "He" was missing in this vision. Jesus himself called his Father "the only true God" without including himself in that definition. (John 17:3)

So whilst the LDS and other denominations see a trinity (no matter what they call this "threesome") we do not see the son and the holy spirit as equal parts of God. There is "one God the Father" and "one Lord Jesus Christ" according to the apostle Paul. No writings of any other apostle contradict him.

I am actually enjoying your banter with that "other fun poster"....She has me on ignore, so I can talk about her (s******)

 

[Katzpur]

The answer to that is simple.....what Stephen saw was a vision, not an actual portal into heaven. "No man has ever seen God" according to the apostle John. (John 1:18) He also saw God in heavenly vision as recorded in Revelation. Ezekiel did too.

Well, I say that's debatable. He said, "And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." I suppose it could be argued either way. The point was that he saw two individuals who were physically distinct from one another and who each occupied space.

So whilst the LDS and other denominations see a trinity (no matter what they call this "threesome") we do not see the son and the holy spirit as equal parts of God. There is "one God the Father" and "one Lord Jesus Christ" according to the apostle Paul. No writings of any other apostle contradict him.

Actually, we LDS don't believe in the Trinity any more than you JWs do. We don't see "God" as being divided into parts at all, and we see Jesus Christ as subordinate to the Father -- now and always.

 

[JayJayDee]

Well, I say that's debatable. He said, "And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." I suppose it could be argued either way. The point was that he saw two individuals who were physically distinct from one another and who each occupied space.

Yes, he saw two distinct individuals.....each occupying a position. The one occupying the right hand position was the one second in command to the one occupying the throne. There was a twosome but not a threesome. And since "no man has ever seen God" I believe it is safe to say it was a vision. It also means that Jesus was not God, because many thousands of people saw him.

Actually, we LDS don't believe in the Trinity any more than you JWs do. We don't see "God" as being divided into parts at all, and we see Jesus Christ as subordinate to the Father -- now and always.

Yet don't you see the son and the holy spirit as part of God?

We see the son as a uniquely created being and the holy spirit as the power emanating from God to accomplish his will. Holy spirit is said to "fill" humans and it "anointed" them, giving them the ability to perform supernatural feats in Bible times. The ability to speak languages they were never taught...to prophesy....to heal the sick....and even to raise the dead.

When Moses began to tire whilst being responsible for his rebellious nation, his father-in-law was prompted to advise him to take on some qualified help. In doing so the Bible states that God took some of the spirit that was on Moses and gave it to the 70 new assistants. This is hardly compatible with holy spirit being a person. (Num 11:16, 17)

 

[moorea944]

Jesus was God, but he was also a man. As a man, he was in a lower position than the Father, and that is what he meant when he said the Father was greater than he. He was divine by nature, but didn't consider his equality as something to hold onto. Jesus said he emptied himself taking on the form of a bondservant. Phil. 2:5-8.

All three Persons of the Godhead are equal in nature. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit all have the same divine nature and divine attributes. There is no difference in the nature or essence of the three persons of the Godhead. Jesus is not a lesser god than the Father. The three persons of the trinity voluntarily submit to each other, respecting the roles each performs.


I read your explanation in your later comments.

Never said he was physically present.

No you don't. You believe God is physical, flesh and bones. You also believe that God was not always the supreme being. The Bible says no such thing!

[Jesus was God, but he was also a man.]

That completely doesnt make sense. God and man at the same time? Can you show us a verse that actually says that? If not, why believe that....



[All three Persons of the Godhead are equal in nature.]

No, not at all. And that totally degrades our Creator!! I dont know where you even get that one..... 1 Cor 11 actually tells us the Godhead. We also read in scripture that Jesus is not equal with Yahweh. Yahweh is greater than His son.

"the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God". You really think that this verse is telling you that they are equal? You really might want to seriously rethink your beliefs.....

 

[jchristopher]

1 Corinthians 13:8-10

You do realize the whole chapter is about the fact that without charity, those spiritual gifts avail us nothing, right? See verse 2. In most cases, you have to look at the context of the chapter(s) to understand a specific verse.

 

[JayJayDee]

You do realize the whole chapter is about the fact that without charity, those spiritual gifts avail us nothing, right? See verse 2. In most cases, you have to look at the context of the chapter(s) to understand a specific verse.

Regardless, verses 8-13 hammer the point home.

Paul likens the need to see miracles to the traits of a spiritual infant.
The spiritual gifts were given for a time and a reason. Once the Christian congregation was out of diapers, it was time to move on to maturity.

"8 Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. 12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love."

All of those spiritual gifts were to cease, but look what was to remain....."faith, hope and love".....along with faith and hope, the greatest of these, "love" (agape) was now to be the identifying mark of true Christians. This is a love you cannot fake.

"34 I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.” (John 13:34, 35)

 

[Unification]

Hi, unification.
I think we kind of had a similar history, on being brought low and humbled, so as to realize by ourselves that we are nothing and valorize the spiritual realm.



Our similar trajetory seems to continue, in that we have difficult on relying on men's words and churches buildings and mankind dominion over God's people. As you said and I believe, "those outward and vain kingdoms do replace the true kingdom, which is within".
However, let's not our trajetory distort reality, so that we fall in the oposite ground of the desirable: the black and white view. We have to dose love to our critical view relative to the history of christianity, remembering that for each abominable act practiced, there must have been many holly ones, for each false christian pointed out, there must have been many good ones.
As for the JW, I think you are being pretty unfair. Their theology may emphatize legality, but they usually mix it with lots of love. Their hope for a "kingdom" doesnt make them greedy or power hunters, on the contrary. They surely are less agressive and more peaciful than the average christian, including you and me. I learn a lot with them.
We must run away from the black and white view, otherwise we will lose the kingdom inside and return to our forget where I came from, to

I do not doubt your sincerity, but I see that you have an almost self-imposed limit to your understanding of the scriptures in their entirety. You demonstrate little respect for God's word and that rings alarm bells with me.

If the scriptures were what Jesus based his teachings on and the apostles did too, why do you rate them so low in comparison to the "spirit within"? Surely if it was God's spirit "within", it would be in total harmony with his word. I haven't seen that. I see you trying to promote your own understanding as if it is the exclusive one with you as some kind of lone prophet crying in the wilderness.




No, says God's word. As the designated king of God's kingdom, Jesus was right there in their midst, but they failed to acknowledge him. In context, it can apply no other way.



Can you prove that your own teachings are not "mankind's lies"? How would you know if what you believe is from God or the devil? Deception is what it is. A deceived person does not know.

Consult the scriptures. Jehovah has always used men to instruct his people. His worshippers were always only in one nation, as one people with one set of laws and instructions for acceptable worship. His people were to listen to their teachers and do as they said. No deviation was permitted. No matter where they lived, they were still to be spiritually separate from those around them.

The basis for God's acceptance of Israel into their covenant with him at Mt Sinai was....."Now if you will strictly obey my voice and keep my covenant, you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, for the whole earth belongs to me. You will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the Israelites.” (Ex 19:5, 6)

Their response was..."After that all the people answered unanimously: “All that Jehovah has spoken, we are willing to do.” (19:8)

God's word to his people was in written form and taught in their assembly every week. But it was transmitted to the people by human servants. (His prophets and priests) These had spiritual credentials so that the people believed that they were God's representatives on earth. They did not teach their own thoughts but were advocating God's will to his people.

What about Christianity? Did Jesus come to present himself as the new God? Hardly! He came to his own people to help them to get their worship back on track. The Pharisees had corrupted God's worship by introducing human tradition as their primary source of teaching.
He castigated these men and exposed their hypocrisy; he directed all worship to his Father and helped the spiritually lost ones in Israel to come back to him.



The devil is not only the ruler of this world but also its god. (2 Cor 4:3, 4)
What is interesting is what Paul said about this situation. He said that only "unbelievers" would be affected by his propaganda. When we come to terms with the fact that "many" who consider themselves to be good Christians are completely rejected by their "Lord" at the judgment, this makes them too, "unbelievers"....."goats". (Matt 7:21-23) They are completely unaware that they are to receive this adverse judgment until it comes. Can you tell me why?



The "new heaven and new earth" is not an internal experience. It is entirely physical but it is the reward for spiritual fidelity on the part of Christ's disciples.

In Isaiah it was also prophesied about a "new heaven and new earth" back then, but it was entirely physical. (Isa 65:17) Israel's homeland was devastated after their exile to Babylon. After 70 years without inhabitants it was in a sorry state. Israel had not been able to worship their God properly or hold a Passover in all that time they spent in Babylon. They had no temple so they could not sacrifice. Once their period of punishment was up, it was time to start fresh with a new generation.

When God restored them to their homeland, the first thing they did was clean up and restore their formerly beautiful land. The "new heavens" in their case was a restoration of their worship, as Jehovah was backing the remnant that returned to encourage them and to eventually rebuild their temple and get things back on track spiritually. The "new earth" in their case was a restoration of their God-given land, all to the glory of their God.



When you say things like this, I can only shake my head. You are denigrating scripture and insulting God by making fun of the Edenic scenario as you assume it to be. You were there to know what took place, were you?

The devil was originally a faithful angel who entertained wrong desires as a free agent. Instead of keeping his place as an angel of high rank in a position of guardianship in the garden, he plotted to gain the worship he desired. He was there in the garden as part of his assignment and knew exactly when to make his move.
If you knew scripture, you would know this.

Your words here demonstrate nothing but ignorance and a putting of your own spin on the words of scripture to denigrate it because it doesn't agree with how you wish to see it. You have no idea of God's purpose because you hide under a form of mock humility. Your words above demonstrate pure arrogance IMO.



And perhaps this is the problem....it's all about how it pertains to you. "New Jerusalem" is not "within" anyone, any more than old Jerusalem was. It was a city that was the seat of God's worship, where his temple was located. The old Jerusalem was a pictorial example of the new....a spiritual, heavenly city, where God dwells and where his real presence is, not just a representation of it.


Your words suggest otherwise. Sorry.



Oh dear, you just don't get it do you? The spiritual stuff is fully understood by me as it is with all JW's. We know about the spiritual and the physical and we know the difference. I can't see that you do.

Who shares your beliefs? Are you a global brotherhood who are united in their worship? Do you meet regularly with fellow worshippers? Are you engaged in the global preaching work that Jesus commanded all his disciples to do?
It involves preaching the 'good news of the kingdom".....something you have not managed to define yet.



There comes a point of why bother?

The only reason I am answering you in such detail is for the benefit of those who may be interested in our exchange.



Still waiting for a succinct answer to this question. No answer forthcoming so far.

To put this simply, if Jesus Christ were to walk into your congregation and most others, and begin to preach, you all would deem him a heretic, a false teacher, he'd be mocked and laughed at. The revelation of literal, earthly, wordly, historical lesson wisdom is upon. Many blessings to you, friend.

 

[melk]

To put this simply, if Jesus Christ were to walk into your congregation and most others, and begin to preach, you all would deem him a heretic, a false teacher, he'd be mocked and laughed at. The revelation of literal, earthly, wordly, historical lesson wisdom is upon. Many blessings to you, friend.

 

[katiemygirl]

You do realize the whole chapter is about the fact that without charity, those spiritual gifts avail us nothing, right? See verse 2. In most cases, you have to look at the context of the chapter(s) to understand a specific verse.

Verse 8. The context tells us love will never fail, but the gifts of prophesy and tongues will. The perfect, which means complete, has come. It is the written, inspired word of God. There is no need for new revelations.

What do you need to know concerning salvation that you can't find the answer to in God's word?

What do you need to know about how to live a christian life that you can't find the answer to in God's word?

Why would anyone think they could improve on God's word?

 

[Kolibri]

To put this simply, if Jesus Christ were to walk into your congregation and most others, and begin to preach, you all would deem him a heretic, a false teacher, he'd be mocked and laughed at. The revelation of literal, earthly, wordly, historical lesson wisdom is upon. Many blessings to you, friend.

Friend? your words are not the rebuke of a friend. If they were, I'd gladly accept them. What you speak is judgement based on self-proclaimed special knowledge.

Jesus based his words on his Father's words. Often he would quote scripture to back up his teachings. Jesus showed great empathy for those that were humble and, after he presented himself to do God's will at his baptism, he was always busy preaching and teaching about God's Kingdom, proclaiming it as the only solution to mankind's problems. He taught a self-sacrificing love that went beyond loving one's neighbor as one's self. (John 13:34,35)

I have yet to read of you backing up your words with God's written word. I have yet to hear of you stressing obedience to the command to preach about God's Kingdom - you are always preaching some other gospel that involves linking oneself to some unverifiable Christ-consciousness.

The mind of Christ is very evident in that he brought "comfort from the Scriptures". He never tooted his own horn, but always stressed glory going to his God and Father. (Romans 15:4-6)

I challenge you to be a friend. I challenge you to cite scriptures to "reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching." (2 Tim 4:2) I challenge you to not let us think you are tickling your own ears with a false gospel - one that is not firmly grounded in scripture. (2 Tim 4:3)

 

[JM2C]

No one is denying the virgin birth.

1. [try Moffatt "a young woman with child"]

What???

In Isaiah 7:14, in the Septuagint, it says, “virgin/Parthenos” but Moffatt corrupted it by saying “a young woman with child” instead, meaning: not a “virgin” anymore, thus denying the virgin birth in Matthew 1:23.

Gods Word becoming flesh,

2. [wrong "and the Word became flesh" and NOT the gods]

What???? Yes, God's Word became flesh..... That's... what I said....

the Gods Word becoming flesh,

You know apostrophe is not like a rare expensive commodity you should try using it at will next time.

the resurrection and ascention of Jesus. Just Jesus as God. There is only one God, that is Yahweh.


[Please read and understand post #965]


[All these verses here are saying only one thing, and that is, the Lord Jesus Christ is God, the Son of God.]


No they are not. Your saying that. Wait a minute.... Jesus is God, that son of God? Is that suppose to make sense?



[You guys are going to be doing nothing but twisting, altering, adulterating these verses for a very, very long time or just rewrite the whole bible on which you did with your twisted delusional NWT.]


Shouldnt I be saying that to you? You believe that Jesus is actually God....



[Now, tell me who is "inventing/twisting scripture to fill a need of beliefs"?]


Well... you are, actually.....

Not according the verses in post #965


When you hit the REPLY button and at the end of [/QUOTE] you can post your reply and at the end of your reply use or write this [/quote] and click Post Reply

 

[katiemygirl]

"moorea944, post: 4167261, member: 16938"
That completely doesnt make sense. God and man at the same time? Can you show us a verse that actually says that? If not, why believe that....

Yes I can. John 1:1, 14

This makes no sense to people who don't have a heart for Jesus.

John 12:39-40
Because of this they were not able to believe, that again Isaiah said, He hath
blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they might not see with the eyes, and understand with the heart, and turn back, and I might heal them;'

No, not at all. And that totally degrades our Creator!! I dont know where you even get that one..... 1 Cor 11 actually tells us the Godhead. We also read in scripture that Jesus is not equal with Yahweh. Yahweh is greater than His son.

All three members of the Godhead are equal in nature.

The FULLNESS of the Godhead dwells in Jesus bodily. Col. 2:9. What don't you understand about the word FULLNESS? Why do you deny this?

Phil. 2:6 says Jesus was the very nature of God, and that he was equal with God, but chose not to take advantage of it.

"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;"

Only a person who has hardened their heart will not see these things.

"the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God". You really think that this verse is telling you that they are equal? You really might want to seriously rethink your beliefs....

Jesus is God. John 1:1.

God and Jesus are equal in nature. Phil. 2:5-6

Being greater does not mean unequal. You may be greater at golf than I am. That doesn't make us unequal in our human nature.

 

[Kolibri]

In Isaiah 7:14, in the Septuagint, it says, “virgin/Parthenos” but Moffatt corrupted it by saying “a young woman with child” instead, meaning: not a “virgin” anymore, thus denying the virgin birth in Matthew 1:23.

The Hebrew word for virgin is bethu-lah'. This however is not the Hebrew word used at Isaiah 7:14. Rather this passage uses the word 'al-mah', which translates as maiden, or young woman whether virgin or non-virgin. However, Matthew employed the Greek word par-the'nos when quoting Isaiah 7:14. And this word definitely translates to the English word "virgin." This is not an error, but a refinement of the type of maiden that this prophesy would find its final fulfillment in.

Moffatt was very much accurate to use the term "young woman" as that is what a maiden is, and that translation was translating the word directly from the Hebrew and not from the Greek Septuagint.