Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[Forever_Catholic]

I think your reading it as Jesus was already in Heaven from the beginning. He wasnt. He was born.

Yes, that's how I'm reading it because that's exactly what Saint John is saying. Jesus Himself said he existed before his incarnation: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). As God is eternal, existing outside of time, Jesus is the eternally begotten Son outside of time, meaning that there was never a time when he had not been begotten. He has always been God the Son. His "birth" only refers to his being born of Mary in a human nature, after which he has been both fully divine and fully human.

 

[moorea944]

[QUOTE="Forever_Catholic, post: 4327791, member: 56677" [/QUOTE]

Yes, that's how I'm reading it because that's exactly what Saint John is saying. Jesus Himself said he existed before his incarnation:

A few things wrong with what you just said. Jesus never said that and... your putting words that the bible doesnt use, like "incarnation". Which is wrong.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58).

Jesus is NOT telling us that he pre-existed. He's telling everyone that the Gospel was preached before Abraham. Even in the beginning with Adam and Eve. They were taught that someone would come to take away sin. That is what it means. Not that he pre-existed....

As God is eternal, existing outside of time, Jesus is the eternally begotten Son outside of time, meaning that there was never a time when he had not been begotten.

What??....

He has always been God the Son. His "birth" only refers to his being born of Mary in a human nature, after which he has been both fully divine and fully human.

God the son? What verse is that one in? .... His birth refers to that because that is what happened. He was born of Mary. God was his Father, but also David. God and man at the same time? Are you kidding me? Is there a verse that says that? No, of course not. Why add in words that are not in the bible. Scripture tells us that he was like us. (Heb 2). He was made like his brethern. Same nature. It had to be someone like that in order to conquer sin. If Jesus was God, that wouldnt even make sense. He had to be the son of God and the son of man. NOT God and man at the same time. That totally degrades our Creator!!

 

[Forever_Catholic]

God was his Father, but also David.

God might be called the father of David in the sense that he created David, but David is still a creature of God, not his son. We are also creatures of God. Only Jesus is the true Son of God. If you have a son, your son is human because you are human. God's "only begotten Son" is God because the Father is God. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is eternal both past and future. Human souls are immortal, but only from a point of origin onward. You are confusing the divine and the created. We are one thing. God is something else altogether.

 

[moorea944]

[QUOTE="Forever_Catholic, post: 4328436, member: 56677"[/QUOTE]

God might be called the father of David in the sense that he created David, but David is still a creature of God, not his son.

I was talking about Jesus. David is his father too, through Mary. Jesus is from the line of Abraham and David. David is his father too.

We are also creatures of God. Only Jesus is the true Son of God. If you have a son, your son is human because you are human. God's "only begotten Son" is God because the Father is God.

No, not at all. Your making him God, not the bible. You believe that because your told that in your church. What is the bible saying about Jesus.... He was like us. God was his Father, born of a woman so he can have our nature. Scripture tells us that.

God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is eternal both past and future.

No, not at all. Only God is. Plus, the Holy Spirit is not a person, it is the power of God. Again, the bible even tells us that in Luke.

Human souls are immortal, but only from a point of origin onward. You are confusing the divine and the created. We are one thing. God is something else altogether.

I can tell your Catholic on that one! Human souls are immortal? What verse is that one in..... Dont bring your beliefs into the bible! "Immortal" and "soul" are NOT ever found together in scripture. The bible does not say that God "gives us" a soul, we ARE a soul!. Soul in Hebrew means, a living frame or a person who is alive. This is how religion gets twisted into something that it is not. Now everyone is down a very dangerous path!

 

[Forever_Catholic]

I was talking about Jesus. David is his father too, through Mary. Jesus is from the line of Abraham and David. David is his father too.

Okay, I misunderstood what you were saying.

But your other arguments, such as what you don't see in the Bible -- at least some of that has already been biblically supported in this thread, but has been flatly rejected nevertheless. When scripture is cited, you consistently challenge its validity, meaning, translation, etc. Everything I have said can be verified in scripture without redefining what the scripture states, but would you buy any of it? Probably not.

Dont bring your beliefs into the bible!

You mean like disputing what Saint John the Apostle wrote about the Triune God and the divinity of Christ? That was you who did that. Or claiming that a crystal clear statement of our Lord means something other that what he said? That was you also, in spite of the verily-verily emphasis he included.

This is how religion gets twisted into something that it is not. Now everyone is down a very dangerous path!

You are the example yourself. A constant effort to disprove or argue against the truth of scripture is a dangerous thing because the more you convince yourself to reject, the less you have left to accept and fully understand. It's a path that leads to apostasy.

The disciples of Christ didn't always understand what he said, and some abandoned him as a result, particularly in the Bread of Life Discourse (John 6). But there were also those who accepted what he said on faith alone, and understanding followed. That's the way it is in Christianity. Understanding follows acceptance.

 

[moorea944]

[QUOTE="Forever_Catholic, post: 4328994, member: 56677"[/QUOTE]

You mean like disputing what Saint John the Apostle wrote about the Triune God and the divinity of Christ?

Yes, absolutely!! First of all, your making the bible a triune bible and a triune God. The bible knows nothing of that. You are saying that , so your making scripture fit into that.
"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one" "There are no other Gods beside me". Your saying that is wrong. There are Gods beside our God. See what the bible says and what you say? BIG difference!!!!

That was you who did that. Or claiming that a crystal clear statement of our Lord means something other that what he said? That was you also, in spite of the verily-verily emphasis he included.

Yes, but I dont take things out of context.

You are the example yourself. A constant effort to disprove or argue against the truth of scripture is a dangerous thing because the more you convince yourself to reject, the less you have left to accept and fully understand. It's a path that leads to apostasy.

Shouldnt I be saying that to you?.....

 

[Forever_Catholic]

"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one" "There are no other Gods beside me". Your saying that is wrong.

No, I would never say that is wrong. This is one thing on which we agree. In fact, "I believe in one God" are the first words of the Nicene Creed, which we recite or chant at every Mass. But the one God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They are all one and inseparable.

I will grant you that the concept of the Trinity is difficult to comprehend. It is the central mystery of the Christian Faith; the one from which all others flow, and the most difficult one to comprehend. A mystery of the faith is anything that mankind could not know except that God revealed it. But even though he revealed something does not mean we can fully grasp it, especially as it pertains to the Trinity. The human mind does not have the capacity to know the essence of God or to understand as he understands. We do have the capacity to recognize that he infinitely greater than us in every possible way, and to trust in him for everything.

 

[moorea944]

[QUOTE="Forever_Catholic, post: 4330012, member: 56677"[/QUOTE]

I will grant you that the concept of the Trinity is difficult to comprehend.

Why? My God is not difficult to comprehend at all. Even Paul says that we dont have a God of confusion. Maybe the Nicene creed is wrong.

It is the central mystery of the Christian Faith; the one from which all others flow, and the most difficult one to comprehend. A mystery of the faith is anything that mankind could not know except that God revealed it. But even though he revealed something does not mean we can fully grasp it, especially as it pertains to the Trinity.

It was a mystery to people, but Paul now tells us that, "that" mystery has now been made known to the saints (believers in God).

The human mind does not have the capacity to know the essence of God or to understand as he understands. We do have the capacity to recognize that he infinitely greater than us in every possible way, and to trust in him for everything.

I agree. But He as made Himself known to us by His Word.

 

[Eileen]

It amazes me that so many people ignore John 4:22 or try to make it say something it does not. Jews as a whole, including Yeshua have always worshiped a singular God-none other with , besides or like. Yeshua says they, the Jews, including himself know (understand, perceive, have knowledge of) what they worship- and they worship an absolutely singular God-indivisible and incorporeal and from this knowledge comes salvation. Yet somehow most Christians say they don't know God. Go figure?

 

[Desert Snake]

It amazes me that so many people ignore John 4:22 or try to make it say something it does not. Jews as a whole, including Yeshua have always worshiped a singular God-none other with , besides or like. Yeshua says they, the Jews, including himself know (understand, perceive, have knowledge of) what they worship- and they worship an absolutely singular God-indivisible and incorporeal and from this knowledge comes salvation. Yet somehow most Christians say they don't know God. Go figure?

Actually, Jesus said that no one knows the father, except through Him.

 

[Eileen]

Actually, Jesus said that no one knows the father, except through Him.

Actually Yeshua says no one knows WHO the Father is except him Lk 10:22 it does not say anything about knowing WHAT God is also you combined Lk 10:22 with John 14:6 that ways on one COMES to the Father except by him which is referring to his role a Cohain Godal.

 

[Wharton]

Actually Yeshua says no one knows WHO the Father is except him Lk 10:22 it does not say anything about knowing WHAT God is also you combined Lk 10:22 with John 14:6 that ways on one COMES to the Father except by him which is referring to his role a Cohain Godal.

Nope.

Jesus is of the order of Melchizedek not Aaron. He is both high priest and king. No Levite held both positions.

When you change the priesthood, you also change the Law.

 

[Eileen]

Nope.

Jesus is of the order of Melchizedek not Aaron. He is both high priest and king. No Levite held both positions.

When you change the priesthood, you also change the Law.

Let's look at that thought- Ps 110:4 The has sworn YHVH, and will not relent, "You are a priest forever-a rightful king by My decree' (or after the manner of My rightful king). This is how the original Hebrew actually reads. The manner by which Melchizedek became a priest is by HaShem's decree. Gen 14:18 tells us he (Melchizedek) was a priest of El Elyon (the Most High). Man did not make him so-HaShem did. And this is also how Yeshua is and will be installed as High Priest. Because only those of the physical Aaronic lineage could be High Priest even in Yeshua's lifetime and he was from the line of Judah it requires a decree from HaShem to make Yeshua High Priest and this HaShem has done. But the duties of the High Priest remain intact and Yeshua, as High Priest is the only one who can bring the Yom Kippur korbonot to draw us (the whole world) near to HaShem.

Heb 5:6 As He (HaShem) says also in another place (Ps 110:4, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

The Greek word for Order here is taxis and means -arrangement, manner, fashion, style. Just as Aaron's son became High Priest in the same arrangement, manner, fashion, style that Aaron did, Yeshua becomes High Priest in the same arrangement, manner, fashion, style that Melchizedek. Aaron's sons by physical lineage and Melchizedek and Yeshua by decree of HaShem. The Levitical priesthood will be reestablished in the Kingdom but Yeshua will remain in the office of High Priest forever as he will never die.

This one instruction (that the High Priest will be of the physical line of Aaron) has not so much been changed but HaShem set the precedent for a person of His choosing to be decreed High Priest before the Aaronic priesthood even came into existence.

Melchizedek means "My king is Zedek" (righteous) and Yeshua is certainly righteous and HaShem's chosen king. You are correct that other person has ever legitimately held the offices of high priest and king but the Tanakh tells us that one day one person would indeed be both Priest and King-that person being The (end time) Messiah who, I believe is Yeshua.

 

[Wharton]

Let's look at that thought- Ps 110:4 The has sworn YHVH, and will not relent, "You are a priest forever-a rightful king by My decree' (or after the manner of My rightful king). This is how the original Hebrew actually reads. The manner by which Melchizedek became a priest is by HaShem's decree. Gen 14:18 tells us he (Melchizedek) was a priest of El Elyon (the Most High). Man did not make him so-HaShem did. And this is also how Yeshua is and will be installed as High Priest. Because only those of the physical Aaronic lineage could be High Priest even in Yeshua's lifetime and he was from the line of Judah it requires a decree from HaShem to make Yeshua High Priest and this HaShem has done. But the duties of the High Priest remain intact and Yeshua, as High Priest is the only one who can bring the Yom Kippur korbonot to draw us (the whole world) near to HaShem.

Heb 5:6 As He (HaShem) says also in another place (Ps 110:4, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

The Greek word for Order here is taxis and means -arrangement, manner, fashion, style. Just as Aaron's son became High Priest in the same arrangement, manner, fashion, style that Aaron did, Yeshua becomes High Priest in the same arrangement, manner, fashion, style that Melchizedek. Aaron's sons by physical lineage and Melchizedek and Yeshua by decree of HaShem. The Levitical priesthood will be reestablished in the Kingdom but Yeshua will remain in the office of High Priest forever as he will never die.

This one instruction (that the High Priest will be of the physical line of Aaron) has not so much been changed but HaShem set the precedent for a person of His choosing to be decreed High Priest before the Aaronic priesthood even came into existence.

Melchizedek means "My king is Zedek" (righteous) and Yeshua is certainly righteous and HaShem's chosen king. You are correct that other person has ever legitimately held the offices of high priest and king but the Tanakh tells us that one day one person would indeed be both Priest and King-that person being The (end time) Messiah who, I believe is Yeshua.

The duties of the Levitical high priest are over/finished. Which is why the Creed states that Jesus sits at the right hand of God. The Levitical priests never sat in the Temple as their sacrificial duties never ended. The sacrifice of Jesus is final. He gets to sit as the high priest. The only korbonot left is the thank offering. Which BTW is found in the Catholic Mass or the Orthodox Divine Liturgy. Your 'korbonot' is here now. You don't have to wait to be near HaShem.

 

[Eileen]

If the Levitical priesthood is over HaShem lied=="For the LORD your God has chosen him (tribe of Levi) out of all your tribes, to stand to serve in the name of the Lord, him and his sons forever." (Deut. 18:5) Who do you think will be making those sacrifices in HaShem's Temple? People may bring them but it is the Levitical priest who will offer them in accordance with HaShem's instructions. Yes as an individual a person can draw near to HaShem through teshuvah (repentance and return) but as a group (all humanity) it takes the Yom Kippur korbonot brought into the Holy of holies by the High Priest to draw us all near. Yeshua will make that offering once at the end of this age (Heb 9:26) I know you believe Yeshua already did this but he has not because the end of this age has not come yet. The Greek in this verse is not past tense, it I denotes a certain future event. The korbonot he will bring is not his own blood (human sacrifice is not acceptable to HaShem and even if Yeshua was both human and divine it is the human Yeshua that died, there is no getting around that). That korbonot will either be or represent all of humanity's submitted wills. Yeshua has not yet entered that Temple not made by human hands to make that offering. Again, I know you do not believe this way and that nothing I could say would convince you this is the way it is neither is there anything you can say that can make me believe your way. But, as I trust Yeshua is soon returning and he will straighten this all out for both of us, I will end with Shalom (peace) to you and may HaShem bless you with the knowledge of Himself and His Messiah.

 

[Wharton]

(human sacrifice is not acceptable to HaShem and even if Yeshua was both human and divine it is the human Yeshua that died, there is no getting around that).

God as a person died on the cross, not just his humanity.

 

[viole]

Actually, Jesus said that no one knows the father, except through Him.

Ergo, all the heroes in the OT, were deluded. Correct?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Wharton]

human sacrifice is not acceptable to HaShem

That's really going to bug-out the JW'S, even though you are correct. Their theology is based on human sacrifice.

 

[Nada]

God is Father. Son, and Holy Spirit, as in Matthew 28:19 where Jesus says "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

The Holy Spirit is not a just a force. He is a person of the Trinity who is personified in his will, intellect, emotions, and actions. He was personified when he spoke to John the Baptist and when he alighted on Jesus in the form of a dove at his baptism, as he told John he would. At this moment, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were all distinctly evident in the same place at the same time. The Holy Spirit was also clearly personified on the day of Pentecost.

Jesus did not speak of the Holy Spirit as a thing or a force, but as "he," "him," and with various titles. He told the apostles that the Holy Spirit would be an advocate or comforter to them and to the Church (depending on how "paraclete" is translated). He said "the world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."

The holy spirit is NOT a person.


What the Bible Says

"An honest Bible reader cannot help but conclude that the holy spirit differs from official church descriptions of it as a person. Consider the following Bible accounts.

1. When Mary, the mother of Jesus, visited her cousin Elizabeth, the Bible says that the unborn child in Elizabeth’s womb leaped, “and Elizabeth was filled with holy spirit.” (Luke 1:41) Is it reasonable that a person would be “filled” with another person?


2. When John the Baptizer spoke to his disciples about Jesus as the one who would succeed him, John said: “I, for my part, baptize you with water . . . , but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize you people with holy spirit.” (Matthew 3:11) John could hardly have been referring to the holy spirit as a person when he spoke of baptizing people with it.


3. While visiting a Roman army officer and his family, the apostle Peter spoke of Jesus as having been anointed by God “with holy spirit and power.” (Acts 10:38) Shortly afterward, “the holy spirit fell upon” the army officer’s household. The account says that many were amazed “because the free gift of the holy spirit was being poured out also upon people of the nations.” (Acts 10:44, 45) Here again, the terms used are inconsistent with the idea of the holy spirit being a person.

It is not unusual for God’s Word to personify things that are not a person. These include wisdom, discernment, sin, death, and undeserved kindness. (Proverbs 8:1–9:6; Romans 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12) Jesus himself said that “wisdom is proved righteous by all its children,” or its good results. (Luke 7:35) Clearly, wisdom is not a person that has literal children! Likewise, the holy spirit is not a person simply because in some instances it is personified."

Is the Holy Spirit a Person? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[JFish123]

I was talking to a Lutheran Pastor the other day and he said God provided the greatest gift when he offered himself up as Jesus on the cross. But from what I read in the Bible, when Jesus was on the cross, he spoke to God in heaven. How then can he be God at the same time? Please explain. Thanks

the doctrine of the trinity-which maintains that there is only one God (monotheism) with three persons within the one godhead. Think of a triangle...

There are three points but it is still one triangle. One God. The Trinity permeates throughout the Bible as here are a few examples....
For example, Peter refers to the saints who have been chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God The Father." (1 Peter 1:2) when Jesus made a post resurrection appearance to Thomas, the disciple worshipfully responded be addressing Him, "My Lord and MY GOD." (John 20:28) The Father also said of the Son, "Your throne O God, is forever and ever." In Acts 5:3-4, we are told that lying to the Holy Spirit is equivalent to lying to God. Peter said,"Ananias, why has satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit,,, You have not lied to men but to God."
Besides being called God, each of the three persons are seen on different occasions to possess the attributes of deity. Note the following examples:
All three persons possess the attribute of omnipresence:
The Father (1 Kings 8:27)
The Son (Matthew 28:20)
The Holy Spirit (psalm 139:7)
All three have the attribute of omniscience:
The Father (psalm 147:5)
The Son (John 16:30)
The Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:10)
All there have the attribute of omnipotence:
The Father (Psalm 135:6)
The Son (Matthew 28:18)
The Holy Spirit (Romans 15:19)
Holiness is ascribed to each of the three persons:
The Father (Revelation 15:4)
The Son (Acts 3:14)
The Holy Spirit (Romans 1:4)
Eternity is ascribed to each of the three persons:
The Father (Psalm 90:2)
The Son (Micah 5:2, John 1:4)
The Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14)
Each if the three persons is described as the Truth:
The Father (John 7:28)
The Son (Revelation 3:7)
The Holy Spirit (1 John 5:6)
Each of the three is called Lord (Luke 2:11, Romans 10:12, 2 Corinthians 3:17) each is called Everlasting (Romans 16:26, Hebrews 9:14, Revelation 22:13) each is called Almighty (Genesis 17:1, Romans 15:19, Revelation 1:8) and each is called Powerful (Jeremiah 32:17, Zechariah 4:6, Hebrews 1:3)
Can any one other than God have the Attributes of God?
In addition to having the attributes of deity, each of the three persons were involved in doing the works of deity. For example, all three were involved in the creation of the world:
The Father (Genesis 2:7, Psalm 102:25, 1 Corinthians 8:6)
The Son (John 1:3, Colossians 1;16, Hebrews 1:2)
The Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2, Job 33:4, Psalm 104:30)
They were also involved in the incarnation and resurrection but I won't go into those verses as I think these are good for now.