Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[sojourner]

That he was part of the same "substance" as His Father? Oh, please.

"Oh please" in what way? If Jesus is divine, then (since, for monotheists, there is only one God, and God's people from the ancient Hebrews to the earliest Xtians have done gymnastics trying to keep God One) he must, in some way, be God. There is no other possible answer for monotheism, as far as the earliest Xtians were concerned.

 

[Katzpur]

"Oh please" in what way? If Jesus is divine, then (since, for monotheists, there is only one God, and God's people from the ancient Hebrews to the earliest Xtians have done gymnastics trying to keep God One) he must, in some way, be God. There is no other possible answer for monotheism, as far as the earliest Xtians were concerned.

The word "Trinity" is itself a collective noun. It is composed of more than one individual, each of whom is, as you said, "in some way... God." "Godhead" is another collective noun, meaning much the same, but lacking the need for gymnastics. Mormons also believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are "one." It's the way in which we believe they are "one" that makes it impossible for us to accept the creeds that must resort to gymnastics in order to "keep God one."

 

[sojourner]

The word "Trinity" is itself a collective noun. It is composed of more than one individual, each of whom is, as you said, "in some way... God." "Godhead" is another collective noun, meaning much the same, but lacking the need for gymnastics. Mormons also believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are "one." It's the way in which we believe they are "one" that makes it impossible for us to accept the creeds that must resort to gymnastics in order to "keep God one."

I suspect that the classic understanding is substantively much the same as the Mormon understanding -- just a difference of semantics.

 

[Katzpur]

I suspect that the classic understanding is substantively much the same as the Mormon understanding -- just a difference of semantics.

You know, I actually think you are right about that. I even tried to convince a trinitarian Christian once of that, but he couldn't get beyond throwing out Greek words and Greek philosophical concepts long enough for us to make any headway. This would be an interesting discussion for the two of us to have.

 

[sojourner]

You know, I actually think you are right about that. I even tried to convince a trinitarian Christian once of that, but he couldn't get beyond throwing out Greek words and Greek philosophical concepts long enough for us to make any headway. This would be an interesting discussion for the two of us to have.

We have to understand that theological constructions are just that: theological constructions. None of them really attempts to be a ontological understanding of God; I don't believe we're objective enough, or have enough vision to have such an understanding of God. If the construction is helpful, so be it.

 

[paarsurrey]

Can someone explain the Trinity please...

Trinity is a trick never believed by Jesus.
It does not need to be explained. It is to be refuted.

Regards

 

[sojourner]

Can someone explain the Trinity please...

Trinity is a trick never believed by Jesus.
It does not need to be explained. It is to be refuted.

Regards

Since we don't really know what Jesus believed -- only what later writers said he believed -- your statement is untenable. All we have is the church's witness -- and part of that witness is the bible, and part is the Trinity. Either you trust the church, or you don't.

 

[paarsurrey]

Since we don't really know what Jesus believed -- only what later writers said he believed -- your statement is untenable. All we have is the church's witness -- and part of that witness is the bible, and part is the Trinity. Either you trust the church, or you don't.

Why trust Church when it was not established by Jesus? Please

Regards

 

[sojourner]

Why trust Church when it was not established by Jesus? Please

Regards

Au contraire. The church was established when Jesus called his first disciples. That church grew as Jesus' movement gained momentum. It gained authenticity as the first Anointed-believers spread the gospel. It spread quickly to the Gentile world, from which we have the first extant writings of the church. It was imperialized by Constantine. It has continued to this day.

 

[paarsurrey]

sojourner said↑
Mythical it may be, and that's fine, since a myth is an illustration of truth.
But false? There's nothing about the Trinity that is incongruent with what the church has believed about God since its beginning. And since theology is the province of the church, it's the church that determines what God is or is not doctrinally.

Paarsurrey wrote:

That is not correct. Jesus did not establish any Church, so Church has no authority to invent creeds in the name of Jesus. Whenever Jesus went to pray he went to a Jewish temple.
Trinity is fallacious .

The church was established when Jesus called his first disciples

Please quote from the Gospels when Jesus and the his first disciples attended service in a Church together. Please mention the name of Church and its location exactly.

Regards

 

[sojourner]

sojourner said↑
Mythical it may be, and that's fine, since a myth is an illustration of truth.
But false? There's nothing about the Trinity that is incongruent with what the church has believed about God since its beginning. And since theology is the province of the church, it's the church that determines what God is or is not doctrinally.

Paarsurrey wrote:

That is not correct. Jesus did not establish any Church, so Church has no authority to invent creeds in the name of Jesus. Whenever Jesus went to pray he went to a Jewish temple.
Trinity is fallacious .



Please quote from the Gospels when Jesus and the his first disciples attended service in a Church together. Please mention the name of Church and its location exactly.

Regards

"Church" =/= "building with physical address." "Church also =/= "pre-arranged worship time and venue." "Church" = "people assembled in community."

 

[Muffled]

Can someone explain the Trinity please...

Trinity is mythical and false; it needs no explanation.

Regards

I believe the Trinity is an accurate reflection of scripture and your view is mythical and false.

 

[Muffled]

Mythical it may be, and that's fine, since a myth is an illustration of truth.
But false? There's nothing about the Trinity that is incongruent with what the church has believed about God since its beginning. And since theology is the province of the church, it's the church that determines what God is or is not doctrinally.

I do not believe The Trinity to be mythical because that would mean being unsure whether the source was reporting accurately but scripture comes from God and is approved by God so it is not mythical.

Although this may be what actually happens I believe God should determine our doctrines instead of the church. It would be nice if the two were the same but that does not appear to be the case.

 

[Muffled]

"Church" =/= "building with physical address." "Church also =/= "pre-arranged worship time and venue." "Church" = "people assembled in community."

Whereby I believe the gathering in the upper room at Pentecost is the first instance of a church.

 

[Wharton]

sojourner said↑
Mythical it may be, and that's fine, since a myth is an illustration of truth.
But false? There's nothing about the Trinity that is incongruent with what the church has believed about God since its beginning. And since theology is the province of the church, it's the church that determines what God is or is not doctrinally.

Paarsurrey wrote:

That is not correct. Jesus did not establish any Church, so Church has no authority to invent creeds in the name of Jesus. Whenever Jesus went to pray he went to a Jewish temple.
Trinity is fallacious .



Please quote from the Gospels when Jesus and the his first disciples attended service in a Church together. Please mention the name of Church and its location exactly.

Regards

Name:The Church of Christ. Location: Jerusalem/Upper Room. Service: Jewish todah.

 

[sojourner]

I do not believe The Trinity to be mythical because that would mean being unsure whether the source was reporting accurately but scripture comes from God and is approved by God so it is not mythical.

You've got the wrong definition of "mythical."

Although this may be what actually happens I believe God should determine our doctrines instead of the church. It would be nice if the two were the same but that does not appear to be the case.

The church is the body of Christ, who is fully God.

 

[sojourner]

Whereby I believe the gathering in the upper room at Pentecost is the first instance of a church.

Good start, but not quite. It began when Jesus called his first disciples.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

I believe in both the visible and invisible Church. I believe that Jesus Christ did establish it as part of His ministry, that after His death, men changed it, and that it has been re-established. I don't necessarily believe that all true Christians belong to that organization, though, because I personally take people at their word when they say they're Christian.

And yet you surely realize that what looks like the church today will look different tomorrow don't you?

If the people are the church and we cannot ourselves say exactly who is going to be saved and who isn't, then what we see cannot really be said to be God's church, for we have no doubt his church will be saved. (Or, are saved.)

 

[Katzpur]

And yet you surely realize that what looks like the church today will look different tomorrow don't you?

If the people are the church and we cannot ourselves say exactly who is going to be saved and who isn't, then what we see cannot really be said to be God's church, for we have no doubt his church will be saved. (Or, are saved.)

I, uh... don't think I understood what you're getting at. Want to give it another try?

 

[Mountain_Climber]

I, uh... don't think I understood what you're getting at. Want to give it another try?

Can you look around you at the people in your congregation or even at the leaders and say for certain you know absolutely all there is to know about them?

I would assume not. Therefore the church can only really exist spiritually insofar as you are able to prove. Our faith is in the unseen, not in the seen, or at least it is supposed to be.
Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."