Can the dead be contacted according to your tradition?

[Forever_Catholic]

What dead people is the CCC speaking of. No one dies. Is there a different dead for our catholic relatives then there is for the saints?

The body dies, but the soul does not. The "dead people" are those whose bodies are in the grave. They are all judged by Christ after physical death, and if they are saved, they go to heaven, some directly, and some by way of purgatory. The others go to hell.

Every angel and every human soul in heaven is a saint, meaning that they are holy.[/QUOTE]

 

[Deeje]

If spirits do not exist in your religion?

Belief in spirits does exist in Biblical Christianity. Its the identity of the spirits that is at issue.

Who or what was expelled in Jesus' day if not demonic spirits who possessed individuals causing them much anguish? Jesus clearly said "expel demons" so their existence is not in question.

If not,

How would you interpret those who are "spirit mediums"?

Some people appear to have a certain 'something' (they often call it a gift) that the demons can tap into. Not everyone can be a "medium" which, as the name suggests, is a 'vehicle' for use by spirits masquerading as spirits of the dead. This happened in the case of apostate King Saul who wanted a spirit medium in Endor to conjure up the spirit of the dead prophet Samuel because God had abandoned him. He was the one, who under instruction from his God, had cleared all the spirit mediums out of the land....this was a lone survivor apparently, and only she saw and heard the supposedly "dead" Samuel.
Saul was desperate to know what was going to happen because no living prophets would speak to him.....why did he imagine that a dead one would, when Israelites had no belief in an immortal soul? (Ecclesiastes 9:5-1) He had lost the plot.

If they are not part of your religion, wouldn't you say people are faking not detesting god?

Huh? If you understand why God gave the commands he did in Deuteronomy 18:9-12, then you will see why any communication with spirits is forbidden. Demonic spirits are out to deceive, so the law was given to protect God's people from the practices of the foreign nations who incorporated all manner of spiritism into their worship. They were detestable to God because, like the spirit at Endor, they pretended to be from him and lead people away from God.

This is the reason why God sent his angelic messengers in human form to his servants. It is why Jesus appeared "in the flesh" to his disciples after his resurrection. They were forbidden to communicate with spirits. God made sure that they didn't have to.

How can you detest god by say using tarot cards when there are no such thing as spirits to which those tarot cards would work? They'd just be regular playing cards with lovely colored pictures.

Demonic spirits use any method humans can think of to deceive them....tarot cards is just one method. The spirits are real but they are not as 'friendly' as they pretend to be. Ask anyone who has tried to break free from them. The demons like nothing more than to mislead as many as they can, using any means available to them...especially religious superstition.

How can you divine, fortune-tell, do sorcery, and magic to something that doesn't exist in your faith?

Unless I'm wrong?

All of those things relate to demonic spirits, not the 'good' spirits who serve God faithfully. It is important to be able to make the distinction. The Bible clearly does.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

I am not familiar with other denominations, but yes, Catholics practice nemocracy.

No, they absolutely do not. You are describing your own interpretation or misunderstanding of Catholicism.

Review what the Catechism says.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The Bible says that the dead know not anything. They are unconscious. There is no way to contact them and praying to them makes as much sense as praying to a rock or tree.Oh, that's right, no one believes the Bible.

 

[Neo Deist]

No.

The dead are...dead. Their bodies decay (or are cremated) and whatever spirit/soul they have has moved beyond our realm. I do not believe in ghosts or contacting the dead and getting a response. I view that stuff as hocus pocus nonsense.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I'm not convinced ghosts exist. I'm not convinced that they don't exist either. I doubt they can be contacted reliably and in fact, I've known a few charlatans who made a living by acting like they could.

I've had two experiences that make lose my skepticism about ghosts.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The body dies, but the soul does not. The "dead people" are those whose bodies are in the grave. They are all judged by Christ after physical death, and if they are saved, they go to heaven, some directly, and some by way of purgatory. The others go to hell.

Every angel and every human soul in heaven is a saint, meaning that they are holy.

That makes sense. Other religions do not talk to flesh, they talk to the spirits as do Catholics to spirits of the saints and jesus. I don't see the sin in talking to spirits only that god isn't involved. Is that why it's a sin or are there different spirits of the deceased (like saints) christians can talk to and other same spirits christians cannot?

 

[Forever_Catholic]

The Bible says that the dead know not anything.

Not really. Some English-languages bible translate that verse so as to change the meaning. In the Latin Vulgate Bible, (which by far predates any English-language bible) Ecclesiastes 9:5 translates to "For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing more." Nothing more and nothing are two different things. What the dead know nothing more of is the activities of the living on earth, as is obvious in the context of Ecclesiastes 9.

 

[lovesong]

As far as I know there are no Pagan faiths that discourage the practice of necromancy. As for myself, it is one of my primary religious practices.

As far as this debate on Catholicism and necromancy goes, I consider the act of ancestor veneration, prayer to a religious figure, and necromancy to all be quite different things. Catholics are performing prayer to a religious figure (the saints), not necromancy. This kind of prayer seeks out the help of a figure for who they were in life or who they are as a divine person, and for the sake of personal aid by the figure. Necromancy, on the other hand, is a learned and practiced art that seeks to connect the practitioner to the dead for the fact that they are dead. Necromancy aims to unite a person with death in itself to gain a greater understanding of its condition, and a necromancer practices his art for the sake of knowledge, skill, and power, rather than personal guidance by any one spirit.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

OK, so the dead do not know about those still alive. Still makes no sense to try to contact them or pray to them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hmmm. I guess a demonic spirit would be defined as any spirit not of god?

Huh? If you understand why God gave the commands he did in Deuteronomy 18:9-12, then you will see why any communication with spirits is forbidden. Demonic spirits are out to deceive, so the law was given to protect God's people from the practices of the foreign nations who incorporated all manner of spiritism into their worship. They were detestable to God because, like the spirit at Endor, they pretended to be from him and lead people away from God.

If I had tarot cards and said "oh wi do wi deem be la. Give me the power I beg of you" (good movie quote, if you haven't seen the movie) how is that different than using the same cards to play a card game like, I don't know, Magic of the Gathering (just thinking of things off hand) where casting spells for game purposes are part of the game?

How do you differentiate demon spirits from people just faking it and calling out names like tarot cards to make christians go "ooh that's the devil talking" when it's just, I don't know, a quote from a movie?

Demonic spirits use any method humans can think of to deceive them....tarot cards is just one method. The spirits are real but they are not as 'friendly' as they pretend to be. Ask anyone who has tried to break free from them. The demons like nothing more than to mislead as many as they can, using any means available to them...especially religious superstition.

I think this is a "name" issue. If I used cards and called them "Sembulala", there wouldn't be a fuss until tell you what I use the cards for. Tarot cards are not always used to predict things. They are just cards.

Maybe the focus is the intent of using any cards as a source or medium for demons to get people through not tarot cards compared to playing cards.

All of those things relate to demonic spirits, not the 'good' spirits who serve God faithfully. It is important to be able to make the distinction. The Bible clearly does.

Eh. I never heard and experience a denominic spirit. Either the spirits didn't care and did their thing or they guided and protected me in one way or another. Whether a christian calls it demonic, is their belief. Though, that makes me scratch my head on one side because demons usually don't save and love people but I see it on the other, there is no god involved. So, don't know what to say there.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No, they absolutely do not. You are describing your own interpretation or misunderstanding of Catholicism.

Review what the Catechism says.

It's the name that's getting you.

You talk to the saints.
The saints are not dead.
You use jesus as a medium.
They bless you and help you.

This is straight from the dictionary of nemocracy. We can call it blessings, communication, relationship with christ, sacraments, and confession. That's more Catholic friendly.

I'm just saying Catholics do pray to the spirits of those who have passed on to heaven. They have jesus as a medium. That's pure dictionary definition. Why is this bad and how?
​

Also, also please re-read my post.

I differentiated definitions (by the dictionary) such as conjure (make a appear), divination (for-tell the future) and applied them that Catholics do pray to make appear by god not the catholic so that whatever they prayed for "can you save my mother from dying" may come true. If it does, it is a divination technique (using pray to fortell the future called self fulfilling prophecy) but for christians the source of divination comes from christ.

The dictionary doesn't say where the source comes from.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

I don't see the sin in talking to spirits only that god isn't involved. Is that why it's a sin or are there different spirits of the deceased (like saints) christians can talk to and other same spirits christians cannot?

The problem with it is that people still living in the body are unable to identify who a spirit is. Frequently people have been deceived when making contact with what they thought were human spirits. This has resulted in demonic infestations of houses or objects, etc.and demonic oppression of people. Catholic exorcists often have to deal with these things.

The Church does not deny that there may be human spirits (ghosts) on earth, but does warn that we shouldn't try to initiate contact with them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The problem with it is that people still living in the body are unable to identify who a spirit is. Frequently people have been deceived when making contact with what they thought were human spirits. This has resulted in demonic infestations of houses or objects, etc.and demonic oppression of people. Catholic exorcists often have to deal with these things.

If Catholics can talk to positive spirits so can non-christians too. Unless people are deceived only because they are not christian even though they still talk to positive spirits just the same?

The Church does not deny that there may be human spirits (ghosts) on earth, but does warn that we shouldn't try to initiate contact with them.

I can see the difference. Some religions believe the spirits of the deceased are in heaven. Many mixed with Catholicism and their own faith believe in the christian heaven but are not Catholics. So, I wouldn't know if its a sin if they prayed to the same spirits even though they are in heaven.

Maybe it has to do with the religion rather than the person. If that be the case, then heaven is based on belief rather than fact (just sayin') if not, I can pray to St. Mary now and she'd bless me just the same as Muslim Joe and atheist Jane. Maybe it's religious differences that make everything unequal.

 

[Deeje]

The body dies, but the soul does not.

I can find no scripture confirming that Jews ever believed in an immaterial part of man that separated from the body at death.
Since Jesus was Jewish, he did not teach such a thing. Later Jews influenced by hellenic teachings adopted the platonic belief in an immortal soul. The "Church" did too. This is not a Bible teaching.

The "dead people" are those whose bodies are in the grave. They are all judged by Christ after physical death, and if they are saved, they go to heaven, some directly, and some by way of purgatory. The others go to hell.

Again I can find no scripture confirming this view.

The dead "sleep" in their graves awaiting a resurrection. (John 5:28-29) Jesus calls the dead from their graves, not from the spirit realm.

Every angel and every human soul in heaven is a saint, meaning that they are holy.

Can we have scripture for that belief too?

"Saints" are not those appointed by the Catholic Church, they are individually "chosen" by God for the privilege of ruling with Christ as 'kings and priests' in his heavenly kingdom. These ones are raised first, but not until Christ's return, according to the apostle Paul. (Revelation 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

The Kingdom of God with Christ as King and with the assistance of his "chosen ones", will rule over earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:2-4) God did not create humans to live in heaven...he created them to enjoy everlasting life on earth. God's first purpose will be brought to completion by means of the Kingdom. (Isaiah 55:11) All that Adam lost for his children will be returned to us.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

OK, so the dead do not know about those still alive. Still makes no sense to try to contact them or pray to them.

Haha, lol. Yeah. They do know. I pray to them for guidance. Christians for blessings. and so forth.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Bible says that the dead know not anything. They are unconscious. There is no way to contact them and praying to them makes as much sense as praying to a rock or tree.Oh, that's right, no one believes the Bible.

Eh. Yeah. You got to use a common foundation to talk about some topics since your authority of truth is different than jane and mine different from hers.

Nothing wrong with that. Spirits exist regardless.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

"PopeADope",

Namaste,

Contacting those who have left their bodies behind for the spirit world from which they came is a big part of my practices

.

I would say it is impossible because of Atman & re-birth concepts, which postulate a re-cycling or a cyclic rebirth of the Atman, the Atman is not a person or spirit, nor is it tied down to one life.

Although there could be some Hindus who believe that we can contact the dead, but i doubt that it is a widely believed or practiced phenomenon.

Dhanyavad

 

[Forever_Catholic]

It's the name that's getting you.

You talk to the saints.
The saints are not dead.
You use jesus as a medium.
They bless you and help you.

This is straight from the dictionary of nemocracy.

But the Dictionary of Necromancy is not the voice or authority of the Catholic Church. The first two statements above are true, but the last two are false. Jesus is God the Son, not a medium. Saints don't bless us, and normally don't help us directly, unless God specifically permits. He permits and enables them to hear prayers that we address to them asking for their prayers on our behalf. Since they are with God in heaven, their prayers have greater effect than our own. So that is why we ask them to intercede for us or pray with us for a certain intention. (Whatever the intention is, it must be compatible with God's will of course.) The saints are not conjured. Asking a saint to pray for us is the same as asking a person on earth to pray for us.

 

[Deeje]

Hmmm. I guess a demonic spirit would be defined as any spirit not of god?

According to the Bible demons are fallen angels and they are very powerful. They have had a lot of their power curbed because they can no longer materialize as they did in Noah's day. That resulted in God stepping in to rectify that situation by eradicating the monstrous children born to them through their union with human women, and forcing their errant fathers back to the spirit realm where he dealt with them by confining them to a spiritually debased condition of restraint known as Tartarus. (2 Peter 2:4-6)

So you are correct...any spirit not of God is a demon....a deceptive spirit.

If I had tarot cards and said "oh wi do wi deem be la. Give me the power I beg of you" (good movie quote, if you haven't seen the movie) how is that different than using the same cards to play a card game like, I don't know, Magic of the Gathering (just thinking of things off hand) where casting spells for game purposes are part of the game?

How do you differentiate demon spirits from people just faking it and calling out names like tarot cards to make christians go "ooh that's the devil talking" when it's just, I don't know, a quote from a movie?

These "spirits" do not care what you use to summon them, they will come as a result of any invitation, be it tarot cards, spirit mediums, divination, magic, incantations, satanically inspired music, looking for omens or any other thing mentioned in Deuteronomy 18:9-12.

Once you invite them, don't ever try to leave them and search for the true God. They will make you pay.

I think this is a "name" issue. If I used cards and called them "Sembulala", there wouldn't be a fuss until tell you what I use the cards for. Tarot cards are not always used to predict things. They are just cards.

Fortune telling doesn't just depend on one activity. Whatever the means, it is wrong to use anything that predicts the future if it is not from God.

Maybe the focus is the intent of using any cards as a source or medium for demons to get people through not tarot cards compared to playing cards.

You got it. They don't care what you use.

Eh. I never heard and experience a denominic spirit. Either the spirits didn't care and did their thing or they guided and protected me in one way or another. Whether a christian calls it demonic, is their belief. Though, that makes me scratch my head on one side because demons usually don't save and love people but I see it on the other, there is no god involved. So, don't know what to say there.

You think deceivers come dressed in a uniform for identification?

2 Corinthians 11:14-15:
"And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light.  It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works."

Disguise is their MO. Angels of light are seldom questioned, but wait till they remove the mask.....

What is a minister? A servant. We can make ourselves servants of God's enemies by disobeying his clearly stated commands.