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Can the government make me decorate a cake?

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
OK, I see that if the baker said no before the design was even proposed, that he was not objecting from a creative point of view.
I also see that the KKK is not protected.

Thank you for a legal interpretation.
You're welcomed.
I'm still interested in whether or not the ACLU writer's opinion is a stretch - if the Supreme Court overturns [is that the correct verb here?] this decision, is the logical legal conclusion then that the baker could just go ahead and post a sign that says "No ...any protected group... allowed in here?"
What did the ACLU say? Do you have a link? Phillips certainly does not need to post a sign proclaiming that he obeys the law. He can. As the COA noted, he can also post a sign expressing his disapproval of the law. The law does not infringe his ability to speak.

Also, I'm not so clear on the standard product vs creative product difference.
Baking and selling a non-custom cake is different from custom decorating one.
Selling ready to hang art is different from selling a custom painting.
How can there be no difference between custom and non-custom product? If you ask an artist for their expression of something, you are getting their opinion of it. That's what a creative product is - an opinion or expression.
I am unaware that the Court has ever held that decorating a cake to sell is "expressive activity" protected by the First Amendment. It conceivably is, and the Court is likely to say something to that effect its upcoming opinion. Phillips' claim of compelled expression would have been his best argument, if it weren't for the fact that he ruined that argument by refusing Craig and Mullins service upon finding out that they are a same-sex couple about to get married and wanted the cake for the reception. For all Phillips knew when he refused them service, all they wanted was a nondescript sheet cake that didn't in any way identify the occasion or couple.

You can't make someone have a favorable opinion of anything - so how can you make them create reasonable art about it?
Phillips does not have to have a favorable opinion about anything in order to not discriminate against customers on one of the protected bases.

How does Phillips have a favorable opinion about the couples who are adulterers so that he can make them a happy cake?

I'm not at all comfortable with the government being able to tell anyone that they need to set their ideals aside
If a business-owner's "ideals" are to discriminate against the classes included in the public accommodations laws, then he should find another business. He is obviously unable to conduct his business in the way that the law requires. It's like someone who can't resist stealing money working in a bank.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It strikes me that from a common sense perspective the Hobby Lobby ruling runs counter to the Colorado law. In other words the Hobby Lobby folks were able to avoid following a law due to their religious beliefs, but the baker was not allowed an exception due to his religious beliefs.
This is the relevant part of Colorado's Anti-discrimination law:

2 (a) It is a discriminatory practice and unlawful for a person, directly or indirectly, to refuse, withhold from, or deny to an individual or a group, because of disability, race, creed, color, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, national origin, or ancestry, the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of a place of public accommodation . . .​

The challenge in Hobby Lobby had nothing to do with the company seeking to discriminate against people protected by some law.

The cases are very different in a variety of respects. You're mixing up apples, oranges and law mowers and asking why they aren't the same.

I suggest you read the COA opinion in Masterpiece: https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/craig_v_masterpiece_opinion_81315.pdf

Burwell v. Hobby Lobby: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/13pdf/13-354_olp1.pdf

And I think most clarifying in that case was Justice Gorsuch's concurrence in the Tenth Circuit decision, which begins on PDF page 78: https://www.ca10.uscourts.gov/opinions/12/12-6294.pdf

Again, as I noted above, the case law that controls in the 2 cases is different. The COA opinion is exquisite in its analysis showing how that case meets the requirements of Smith.
 
What did the ACLU say? Do you have a link? Phillips certainly does not need to post a sign proclaiming that he obeys the law. He can. As the COA noted, he can also post a sign expressing his disapproval of the law. The law does not infringe his ability to speak.

Here (it was in the original post but pasting it here, too)
After this happened yesterday, the ACLU published this opinion by James Esseks: President Trump and Attorney General Sessions Want to Enshrine a Business Right to Discriminate Into the Constitution

If a business-owner's "ideals" are to discriminate against the classes included in the public accommodations laws, then he should find another business. He is obviously unable to conduct his business in the way that the law requires. It's like someone who can't resist stealing money working in a bank.

I don't think I'm explaining myself well. I'll try again.
You might not think of decorating a cake as creative expression - it's certainly not high art - but let's say it is. It's a canvas, it gets decorated in a unique way that the decorator does it - so it's creative art.

I agree that it is a legal requirement to sell cakes to people who ask for them << not creative/expression
But how is it a legal requirement to create a design for something I disagree with?

It just *feels* like potentially being forced to lie.

And sorry - I don't understand what you mean here at all :/
How does Phillips have a favorable opinion about the couples who are adulterers so that he can make them a happy cake?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Interesting question @chickenranch . Does one person's right to be offended about discrimination over a cake overrule another person's right to be offended by their lifestyle? I mean this is not just one person's "personal opinion" over another's but the position of one person's conscience over another's....last time I looked, a person's conscience was sacrosanct. You cannot force someone to go against their conscience or religious convictions....even legally.
no.gif
There might be penalties imposed, but that is why Christians chose martyrdom over compromise. It takes courage to have convictions.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Here (it was in the original post but pasting it here, too)
After this happened yesterday, the ACLU published this opinion by James Esseks: President Trump and Attorney General Sessions Want to Enshrine a Business Right to Discriminate Into the Constitution
Thank you. I did look at that, but then I thought it must not be what you were talking about.

Frankly, the article begins somewhat deceptively, asserting: "Can businesses put up a sign that says, “We Don’t Sell To Gays?” President Trump says yes." The Court will undoubtedly not reach any issue about displaying signs--even though, as James Esseks is well aware, CADA does prohibit the display or dissemination of notices that a business will violate the law.

But Esseks eventually does make a couple of important points:

But consider what a ruling for the bakery could mean here — constitutional protection for discrimination based on freedom of religion or expression. That’s breathtaking in its scope and consequences. It would mean that a florist could refuse to sell flowers for the funeral of an interfaith couple, a dance studio could turn away the children of an interracial couple, an architect could put up a sign saying, “No Jews,” a doctor could turn away transgender people altogether. And each and every law that makes discrimination illegal would be overridden by the constitutional right to discriminate.

In fact, the consequences go far beyond nondiscrimination laws.

If any business has a constitutional right to express its views or its religion by refusing to comply with a nondiscrimination law, it could defy other government rules as well. Businesses could refuse to follow food safety rules because they want to express themselves through their refusal. Or a company could flout consumer protection regulations because they are inconsistent with its religious beliefs.​

I do hope the ACLU includes and expands upon those points in its amicus brief, which it surely will file. The ACLU hasn't filed one yet.

The DOJ's amicus brief is highly unusual in arguing for a petitioner who is challenging the constitutionality of a very common type of public accommodations law. I doubt that any such thing has ever happened before. But it isn't going to change anyone's mind on the Court. The brief doesn't make good arguments -- in fact, a couple of times it gives reason to reject it's own argument. The purpose of its primary argument is to try to negate the fact that Smith is the controlling case law, which does not apply strict scrutiny. Justices Kennedy and Roberts won't be going there.

I don't think I'm explaining myself well. I'll try again.
You might not think of decorating a cake as creative expression - it's certainly not high art - but let's say it is. It's a canvas, it gets decorated in a unique way that the decorator does it - so it's creative art.

I agree that it is a legal requirement to sell cakes to people who ask for them << not creative/expression
But how is it a legal requirement to create a design for something I disagree with?
So, if Craig's mother had walked into the store and asked for a white sheet cake decorated with purple and yellow flowers and little else, no writing or other images on it, what is that Phillips would disagree with? How would that impinge on his artistic expression? I feel certain we agree that it wouldn't.

Yet, when Phillips refused Craig and Mullins service, for all he knew that's all they wanted. And for all we know, that's the kind of cake they eventually got. That's why Phillips' claim of compelled expressive activity is fallacious. The facts of the case demonstrate that Phillips' reason for refusing service to Craig and Mullins was not because they wanted him to create a piece of artwork that offended his religion. He refused them service for no other reason than that the were a same-sex couple who were getting married and wanted a cake. And that is an odious violation of the law.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Interesting question @chickenranch . Does one person's right to be offended about discrimination over a cake overrule another person's right to be offended by their lifestyle? I mean this is not just one person's "personal opinion" over another's but the position of one person's conscience over another's....last time I looked, a person's conscience was sacrosanct. You cannot force someone to go against their conscience or religious convictions....even legally
Apparently your ideas are not gotten from any case law. In all the cases of discrimination against same-sex couples in violation of public accommodations laws--photographer, florists, bakers--no court has held that business-owners have a Free Exercise right to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Apparently your ideas are not gotten from any case law. In all the cases of discrimination against same-sex couples in violation of public accommodations laws--photographer, florists, bakers--no court has held that business-owners have a Free Exercise right to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation.

I was speaking about being forced to do something against your conscience. For example....if a government forced conscription on its 20 year olds and some because of conscience towards God refused to join the military, they cannot be forced to do something against their conscience. A higher law applies here...the law of God. Man's law can never nullify God's law, no matter what penalty is placed on them. If it means going to jail or worse.....then so be it. There can be no compromise simply for the sake of dodging a penalty. As I said, this is why Christians were martyred...because they refused to compromise.

I have no problem with gay people doing whatever they wish, as long as they don't interfere with my right to believe that what they are doing is a violation of God's law regarding marriage. He will never sanction their "marriages" no matter what human laws are passed to legalize them. I will never protest or lobby for changes to the law, but I will let God take care of the situation as only he can. We are all free to live as we choose...we are not free to mess with the consciences of others. I would personally not make a specific cake for their wedding because I have the right to exercise my conscience. They have no right to tell me otherwise. I answer to a higher power.
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If they made it impossible to exercise my conscience, I would stop making cakes altogether. I bake a mean cookie. :D
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Apparently your ideas are not gotten from any case law.
Mine aren't either. All those Jim Crow laws were legal at the time.

I think that the antidiscrimination laws were needed decades ago, but are now obsolete. Society has moved far past those problems. There are other ways to deal with the overt discrimination that's left.

I think the main effect of those laws, now, is to feed the sense of victimhood and entitlement that is more of a problem.
Tom
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
That's my thoughts, let the market itself deal any penalty for making wrong decisions.
This "market," it doesn't even fix the problems with companies dumping tons of pollutants into the environment. It doesn't punish them when people get sick, it doesn't punish them for abuses, and it doesn't punish them when extremely unsafe factories and warehouses overseas face a disaster and many people needless die.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
I haven’t read the whole thread, but what was stopping the baker from quoting an exorbitant price for the job if he didn’t want it?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
For example....if a government forced conscription on its 20 year olds and some because of conscience towards God refused to join the military, they cannot be forced to do something against their conscience.
That really depends. Here in America, we can enjoy a privilege of having a large enough volunteer military (as well as two nice and big oceans on both sides). For many European countries, and others, that have much smaller populations, it's pretty much either mandatory conscription or be faced with a country that doesn't have enough people in the military.
If they made it impossible to exercise my conscience, I would stop making cakes altogether. I bake a mean cookie. :D
Societies do not work if everyone thinks they should get their own special privileges. Jesus certainly did not teach that, and it is working together and putting our differences aside that allows society, and all its members, to flourish.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
This "market," it doesn't even fix the problems with companies dumping tons of pollutants into the environment. It doesn't punish them when people get sick, it doesn't punish them for abuses, and it doesn't punish them when extremely unsafe factories and warehouses overseas face a disaster and many people needless die.
The market as you may realize are people like you and me who use, support, and drive businesses forward. I don't think what you're saying is quite all true.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
The market as you may realize are people like you and me who use, support, and drive businesses forward. I don't think what you're saying is quite all true.
It's this idea that the "free market" is self regulating and takes care of those who do wrong. It's almost as if Capitalists have replaced the "invisible hand of god" with the "invisible hand of the market." People assume these invisible hands will fix things for the world, but they don't. Morality is not a concern, but only how to make money.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I was speaking about being forced to do something against your conscience.
If it's against a storeowner's "conscience" to provide his goods and services without discriminating on the basis of a person's disability, race, creed, color, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, national origin, or ancestry, then he simply needs to close shop and find another way to make a living. I'm certain you would understand what's wrong about discrimination in public accommodations if you were the one being discriminated aganst. Right?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think that the antidiscrimination laws were needed decades ago, but are now obsolete.
Anti-discrimination laws in public accommodations serve the same purpose today as they did 50 years ago.

Society has moved far past those problems.
And red is green, and black is white. Got it.

There are other ways to deal with the overt discrimination that's left.
How?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
On Thursday the DOJ told the Supreme court that forcing the baker to make the gay marriage cake would violate his 1st amendment rights. The plot thickens...

Trump DOJ To Supreme Court: Making Gay Wedding Cake Would Violate Baker's Rights
Does your Yahoo article link to the DOJ brief? Here it is: http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/16-111-tsac-USA.pdf As already noted, it's primary argument is to try to negate the fact that Smith is the controlling case law, claiming that heightened scrutiny of a public accommodations law demands strict scrutiny "where it compels both creation of expression and participation in an expressive event."

The problem with the argument is that Phillips did not refuse service to Craig and Mullins because he was compelled to create a piece of artwork that offended his religion, and, moreover, the Court has long held that there is a compelling governmental interest in combatting discrimination in public accommodations.

I'm certain you would understand why discrimination is wrong if you were the person being discriminated against. You would object if it were a woman who was deprived of the same goods and services as men were allowed. Right?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I'm certain you would understand what's wrong about discrimination in public accommodations if you were the one being discriminated aganst. Right?
I do understand that part.
But I also understand the downside to government intrusion into my life, worldview, ethics, and beliefs.
Tom
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I do understand that part.
But I also understand the downside to government intrusion into my life, worldview, ethics, and beliefs
It isn't a "government intrusion" into anyone's "life, worldview, ethics [or] beliefs" to have to abide by public accommodation anti-discrimination laws.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
It isn't a "government intrusion" into anyone's "life, worldview, ethics [or] beliefs" to have to abide by public accommodation anti-discrimination laws.
Yes, actually it is.
I can understand that a lawyer would not, but I do.
Tom
 
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