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Can the government make me decorate a cake?

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I wish to clarify comments I've made about the controlling case law and the DOJ's brief. A couple of my remarks are at least misleading (which wouldn't have happened if I were not making an effort to reduce my quoting (of non-copyrighted material), an effort I'm sure everyone appreciates).

Smith is the controlling case law for Phillips' Free Exercise claim. The DOJ brief primarily argues Phillips' compelled expressive activity claim. Smith has nothing to do with that. I noted a couple of times that the gist of the DOJ argument is to the negate Smith. That is obviously not correct. The DOJ does argue for heightened scrutiny, but it is on the compelled expressive activity claim, not his Free Exercise claim.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Does anyone here contend that the persons who work on and decorate a cake for a certain event are personally participating in that event? No one here has suggested any such thing. I've never known a baker to inquire about the moral status of an event where the cake was to be served; I've never known a baker to suggest that by baking the requested cake s/he would be participating in that event. Have you?

Just to illustrate the sheer inanity of the DOJ's argument in its brief, it hinges on the claim that Phillips would have been participating in the wedding ceremony. Indeed, the brief quotes Phillips initial affidavit in noting that Phillips “believes that to create a wedding cake celebrating a marriage that directly contradicts his religious convictions would be 'a personal endorsement and participation in [a] ceremony and relationship' that he does not condone.” (My underlining.) If Phillips ever overcomes this delusion, he will probably be disappointed to learn the Craig and Mullins never desired that he participate in either their ceremony or relationship.

The DOJ never gets around to explaining exactly how a baker who isn't invited to a wedding ceremony participates in the ceremony. What part does the absent baker play? No court has ever held that bakers or other vendors who are not present at an event are participants in the event, much less has any court ever held that such persons can assert Free Exercise or Free Speech rights on the basis of such a concept of participation.

Moreover, the DOJ brief is entirely disingenuous about the whole issue of Phillips somehow participating in the wedding “ceremony” (a term used nearly 20 times in 30 wide-margin pages). The wedding ceremony was to take place in Massachusetts--Colorado didn't recognize equal marriage rights for same-sex couples in 2012. The cake did not attend the ceremony. The cake was intended only for the later celebration in Colorado.

Again the DOJ's whole purpose in making these absurd statements about Phillips participating in the couple's ceremony and relationship is to argue for "heightened scrutiny" of Phillips' claim of compelled expressive activity. The DOJ never says exactly what standard of judicial review it is urging to the Court apply. Let's say the Court swallows the DOJ argument and decides to review the case under the strictest scrutiny, where the the law does not survive unless it achieves a compelling governmentall objective, is narrowly tailored so as not sweep up a lot of extraneous legal activity, and is the least restrictive sort of law.

In Roberts v. US Jaycees (1984), the Court reviewed a case in which a couple of Minnesota chapters of the Jaycees sued the organization due to its rule that disallowed women to be regular members. The state chapters had been admitting women as regular members, and argued that to not do so would violation Minnesota's public accommodations law prohibiting sex discrimination. The national organization claimed that the First Amendment provided them with a right of association that allowed the organization to prohibit women as regular members. Here is what the Court said:

The right to associate for expressive purposes is not, however, absolute. Infringements on that right may be justified by regulations adopted to serve compelling state interests, unrelated to the suppression of ideas, that cannot be achieved through means significantly less restrictive of associational freedoms. E. g., Brown v. Socialist Workers '74 Campaign Committee, supra, at 91-92; Democratic Party of United States v. Wisconsin,450 U.S. 107, 124 (1981); Buckley v. Valeo, 424 U.S. 1, 25 (1976) (per curiam); Cousins v. Wigoda, supra, at 489; American Party of Texas v. White, 415 U.S. 767, 780-781 (1974); NAACP v. Button, supra, at 438; Shelton v. Tucker, 364 U.S. 479, 486, 488 (1960). We are persuaded that Minnesota's compelling interest in eradicating discrimination against its female citizens justifies the impact that application of the statute to the Jaycees may have on the male members' associational freedoms.

On its face, the Minnesota Act does not aim at the suppression of speech, does not distinguish between prohibited and permitted activity on the basis of viewpoint, and does not license enforcement authorities to administer the statute on the basis of such constitutionally impressible criteria. See also infra, at 629-631. Nor does the Jaycees contend that the Act has been applied in this case for the purpose of hampering the organization's ability to express its views. Instead, as the Minnesota Supreme Court explained, the Act reflects the State's strong historical commitment to eliminating discrimination and assuring its citizens equal access to publicly available goods and services. See 305 N. W. 2d, at 766-768. That goal, which is unrelated to the suppression of expression, plainly serves compelling state interests of the highest order.

[. . .]

In any event, even if enforcement of the Act causes some incidental abridgment of the Jaycees' protected speech, that effect is no greater than is necessary to accomplish the State's legitimate purposes. As we have explained, acts of invidious discrimination in the distribution of publicly available goods, services, and other advantages cause unique evils that government has a compelling interest to prevent - wholly apart from the point of view such conduct may transmit. Accordingly, like violence or other types of potentially expressive activities that produce special harms distinct from their communicative impact, such practices are entitled to no constitutional protection. Runyon v. McCrary, 427 U.S., at 175 -176. Compare NAACP v. Claiborne Hardware Co., 458 U.S., at 907 -909 (peaceful picketing), with id., at 916 (violence). In prohibiting such practices, the Minnesota Act therefore "responds precisely to the substantive problem which legitimately concerns" the State and abridges no more speech or associational freedom than is necessary to accomplish that purpose. See City Council of Los Angeles v. Taxpayers for Vincent, 466 U.S. 789, 810 (1984).​

FindLaw's United States Supreme Court case and opinions.

Here the Court makes clear that the anti-discrimintation provisions of public accommodations law meet the requirements of strict scrutiny.
 
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Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's offering tacit consent to the "marriage". I for one could not do that.
The bigots who discriminated against African Americans for decades said exactly the same thing. God forbids Black and white people to eat in the same room or at the same counter.

So what would you do if you were in Phillips situation? Violate the law? Does your "conscience" condone that?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I was speaking about being forced to do something against your conscience. For example....if a government forced conscription on its 20 year olds and some because of conscience towards God refused to join the military, they cannot be forced to do something against their conscience. A higher law applies here...the law of God. Man's law can never nullify God's law, no matter what penalty is placed on them. If it means going to jail or worse.....then so be it. There can be no compromise simply for the sake of dodging a penalty. As I said, this is why Christians were martyred...because they refused to compromise.

I have no problem with gay people doing whatever they wish, as long as they don't interfere with my right to believe that what they are doing is a violation of God's law regarding marriage. He will never sanction their "marriages" no matter what human laws are passed to legalize them. I will never protest or lobby for changes to the law, but I will let God take care of the situation as only he can. We are all free to live as we choose...we are not free to mess with the consciences of others. I would personally not make a specific cake for their wedding because I have the right to exercise my conscience. They have no right to tell me otherwise. I answer to a higher power.
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If they made it impossible to exercise my conscience, I would stop making cakes altogether. I bake a mean cookie. :D
Would you be this keen to support someone's "exercise of conscience" if the person was in the city Building department and the question of conscience they were struggling with was whether to issue a building permit for a JW Kingdom Hall?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If the bakers have a love of God and a respect for his laws, then nothing will induce them to go against it. If they ignore God's laws to avoid punishment, then they have a lot to learn about the Christian martyrs who chose death rather than to put a pinch of incense on the alter as an act of worship to the emperor. God's laws are not negotiable.

That's acceptable to me, in part because it has to be.

The legality of something doesn't mean its a good idea.....only to some.

Agree. Getting married to somebody you just met that day and dropping out of high school are both bad ideas, but legal and should remain so.

"Marriage" is God's arrangement

You mean that that is what you have been taught to believe and have accepted on faith. I have no reason to believe that.

it will never be allowed to be tainted by those who believe that what they want overrides what God's word says

Same sex marriage is already allowed, and it doesn't taint the institution of marriage. My marriage has not been affected adversely at all by it, and I doubt that yours has either.

What has happened is that uncounted numbers of loving, committed, same sex couples are enjoying the same dignity and legal protections offered to heterosexual couples.

You hurt Christianity by calling that tainted. People that don't already agree with you are mostly put off by such attitudes, which fact may account for a large portion of the decline in numbers of those self-identifying as Christian or as a church affiliated Christian since the issue gained traction in the news, especially in America

I've got a question, for you about Jehovah's Witnesses, Deeje, but since it's off topic, I'll conceal it from those not interested:

The Jehovah's Witnesses are very active in the village where I live, and I get a knock on the door a couple of times a year. I really don't want to discuss anything with them, but I also want to be friendly and polite. In the past, when I have told them that we are atheists that aren't interested in religion, they continue to try to get me to take literature or investigate the JW.org website. What I've discovered is that if I tell them that we are Catholic, they seem give up and move on immediately. Does that surprise you? Can you explain it?

Also, is Deeje either a nickname or short for something? If you know how, please put your reply in a spoiler for the same reason.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's offering tacit consent to the "marriage". I for one could not do that. That is what my conscience would dictate. I do not care what lifestyle homosexuals choose because it has nothing to do with me....but if they involve me in it by demanding that I do something that indicates that I condone their "marriage".....then that is something I could not consent to.

That's your choice to see baking such a cake as condoning same sex marriage. I know that you don't approve, and if you told me that you baked a wedding cake for such a couple, I would know that you had baked a cake for somebody that you do not approve of.

Most of us do that on the job. I have. One was a guy just out of jail that day in the ER who had overdosed on cocaine, and had developed cardiac complications. I never once thought that anybody saw me as endorsing anything about this guy because I helped him get through his predicament safely.

So, you can understand why I don't accept that answer from others, and why I see taking that position as a choice. As far as I know, there is no scripture justifying such bakers. The Bible is referring to sexual relationships, not marriages. In my demographic and community, which is an enclave of retired American and Canadian expatriates, many if not most same sex couples are beyond being sexually active just like their heterosexual counterparts, and even if they weren't, I don't recall the Bible instructing believers to persecute them or discriminate against them.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Guess what? When you serve the public, there are going to be those you disagree with and do things you find questionable and immoral. You still have to serve them.You don't get to pick and choose whom you serve.

I understand that...and I have no problem selling a cake for sharing a spot of afternoon tea with your family....that is none of my business...I am providing a neutral service.....but that is not the same as asking someone to violate their conscience and forcing them to do something that is specifically against their beliefs. If gays feel uncomfortable for not being able to order a wedding cake to mark their "marriage", from a person whose conscience would be uncomfortable delivering such a request....why does a homosexual have the high ground here? Whose level of discomfort is more important?...and why? :shrug:

Plus there is also the issue that Jesus not once turned anyone away, but rather to the contrary he humbled himself before the sinners and society's lowest and washed their feet. What about saying "we don't serve your kind here" reflects Jesus' ways and teachings?

Jesus did not consort with sinners to pat them on the back and tell them to go on sinning. His primary aim was to get them to see the error of their ways and change their course. He washed the feet of those whom he considered worthy of such a humble act....his apostles. It was a lesson in the face of many incidents where they fell to arguing who among themselves was the greatest. Jesus showed them that the greatest one was he who could realize his place as the servant of his brother. He never once condoned sin.

You might remember that Jesus admonition was to "go and sin no more"...how does that apply here?

It's no different because they would still be giving the person the same exact things, except the added bonus of very terrible customer service.

Not the same at all. It is demanding compromise because of one person's discomfort being held over another's....and for a Christian, there can be NO compromise. For myself personally, if I was forced to sell wedding cakes to gays in honor of their "marriage" I would either close up shop or sell something they would never need for such an occasion. I would have the same stance if someone ordered a specific Christening cake for an infant baptism, a Christmas cake, or even a birthday cake. As a JW, I would never be in that business to start with obviously. Afternoon tea cakes? No worries.
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I make them all the time..cookies too.

Except that's a terrible idea. Society works better when people put aside their differences and work together.

No its a great idea! It would remove all the animosity and allow peace to reign in all neighborhood bakeries.
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People do not put their differences aside and work together...in case you hadn't noticed. If it isn't cakes and bakeries, its something else. Just human nature, isn't it?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The bigots who discriminated against African Americans for decades said exactly the same thing. God forbids Black and white people to eat in the same room or at the same counter.

So what would you do if you were in Phillips situation? Violate the law? Does your "conscience" condone that?

Hmmm, very nice legal lingo here Nous. Its not what you say, its the intonation of the words you use.....right?

Look at how you phrased this.....

"Just to illustrate the sheer inanity of the DOJ's argument in its brief, it hinges on the claim that Phillips would have been participating in the wedding ceremony. Indeed, the brief quotes Phillips initial affidavit in noting that Phillips “believes that to create a wedding cake celebrating a marriage that directly contradicts his religious convictions would be 'a personal endorsement and participation in [a] ceremony and relationship' that he does not condone.” (My underlining.) If Phillips ever overcomes this delusion, he will probably be disappointed to learn the Craig and Mullins never desired that he participate in either their ceremony or relationship."

I understand Phillips' objections completely. I don't care about man's law when it contravenes God's law. No one should be forced to violate their conscience.

Its a fine line, but then compromise often walks such a thin one. Had the gay couple simply bought a cake and the accessories and taken it home to decorate themselves, there would have been no issue. Why didn't the couple seek out a bakery that did not have problems of conscience over the SSM issue.....what kind of victory is it to trample on the right to hold a different opinion in a free society, when forcing someone to do what violates their conscience is essentially something that smacks of dictatorship. One person's freedom is sacrificed to appease another's. Where does it stop? What other freedoms will we be forced to surrender? Where is this leading...?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I understand that...and I have no problem selling a cake for sharing a spot of afternoon tea with your family....that is none of my business...I am providing a neutral service.....but that is not the same as asking someone to violate their conscience and forcing them to do something that is specifically against their beliefs.
Why are homophobes so happy to illegally discriminate against honest, hardworking, upstanding gay people but have no objection whatsoever to providing their goods and services to rapists, thieves, perpetrators of domestic violence, and other criminals?

None of the bakers, florists, photographers or venue-owners who were willing to violate the law and lose their businesses in order to discriminate against same-sex couples had ever expressed any objection to providing their goods and services to different-sex couples who were adulterers, homewreckers or delinquent in their child support payments.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hmmm, very nice legal lingo here Nous. Its not what you say, its the intonation of the words you use.....right?

Look at how you phrased this.....

"Just to illustrate the sheer inanity of the DOJ's argument in its brief, it hinges on the claim that Phillips would have been participating in the wedding ceremony. Indeed, the brief quotes Phillips initial affidavit in noting that Phillips “believes that to create a wedding cake celebrating a marriage that directly contradicts his religious convictions would be 'a personal endorsement and participation in [a] ceremony and relationship' that he does not condone.” (My underlining.) If Phillips ever overcomes this delusion, he will probably be disappointed to learn the Craig and Mullins never desired that he participate in either their ceremony or relationship."
Intonation

1. the pattern or melody of pitch changes in connected speech,especially the pitch pattern of a sentence, which distinguishes kindsof sentences or speakers of different language cultures.​

the definition of intonation

I have no idea what your comment about my "intonation" is supposed to mean. If you have any objection to anything I actually said, just say so.

I understand Phillips' objections completely.
The claim in Phillips affidavit, where he says that baking a cake for Craig and Mullins would mean that he is participating in their wedding ceremony and relationship, is sheer nonsense. It has no basis in the law. Vendors who provide a baked good for an event are not recognized in the law as participating in that event nor in the buyers' personal relationships.

And Phillips certainly didn't come up with those ideas on his own. He didn't express any such ideas to Craig and Mullins. Phillips is merely repeating what his lawyers instructed him to put in the affidavit.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Why are homophobes so happy to illegally discriminate against honest, hardworking, upstanding gay people but have no objection whatsoever to providing their goods and services to rapists, thieves, perpetrators of domestic violence, and other criminals?

I think you are missing the point. I am not a "homophobe" inasmuch as I have no interest in what people do in the privacy of their own homes. I would not lobby the government to ban them or punish them, or impose any other sanctions against them on the same basis as Jesus mentioned in Matthew 5:45......but I reserve the right to object to their lifestyle when it is transferred into my domain and I am expected to violate my conscience for the sake of what?...accommodating actions that the Bible clearly condemns?

All people who commit sexual immorality such as defined in scripture, regardless of gender are all equally committing sin as it is described in the Bible. Our laws have reflected the Bible's teachings for hundreds of years, until someone came up with the notion that they didn't want to live by the Bible's rules any more. They were too restrictive. Altering the laws of men does not alter the laws of God....those are the laws I live by. I apologize to no one for that.

None of the bakers, florists, photographers or venue-owners who were willing to violate the law and lose their businesses in order to discriminate against same-sex couples had ever expressed any objection to providing their goods and services to different-sex couples who were adulterers, homewreckers or delinquent in their child support payments.

Again, you are missing the point. Unless those people were encroaching on my conscience by making me somehow participate in their behaviors, then I am not complicit. If an adulterer asked me to bake and decorate a cake in celebration of his sexual conquests, or to celebrate 10 years of dodging child support, then I would object. I cannot however, be held accountable unless I am complicit in the event.....do you understand?

If one gay partner ordered a wedding cake with no specific reference to it being used to celebrate a gay "marriage"....and with no indication on the decoration that it was for anything but a common heterosexual wedding, then I would not be complicit. I can only be held accountable for what I do once I know.

I would not decorate a cake celebrating something that I know God condemns.

I have no idea what your comment about my "intonation" is supposed to mean. If you have any objection to anything I actually said, just say so.

I though it might be obvious in the next sentence....."Look at how you phrased this....." It was your tone.

Look at what I underlined and bolded.....you deliberately used phrases like " to illustrate the sheer inanity"....or "If Phillips ever overcomes this delusion".....that kind of speech is taking the reader down your pathway of thinking, denigrating him for his beliefs. You have no right to do that just because you disagree with him.

The claim in Phillips affidavit, where he says that baking a cake for Craig and Mullins would mean that he is participating in their wedding ceremony and relationship, is sheer nonsense. It has no basis in the law.

We are not talking about man's law......Christians abide by a higher law. (Acts 5:29) You cannot ride roughshod over somebody's conscience, regardless of what man's law says. Obedience to God has to come first, regardless of the consequences. Like conscious objection might mean jail time...so be it.

Vendors who provide a baked good for an event are not recognized in the law as participating in that event nor in the buyers' personal relationships.

Not recognized by whose law? Again, you make no room for the exercise of conscience and obedience to God's law here. You can throw God's laws away if you wish...just don't expect me to.

And Phillips certainly didn't come up with those ideas on his own. He didn't express any such ideas to Craig and Mullins. Phillips is merely repeating what his lawyers instructed him to put in the affidavit.

Oh please. If someone has convictions and then has the courage to back them up, I applaud them. It takes guts to stand up for what you believe in, especially in the face of this very emotive issue. Those who cave in to political correctness will have it come back and bite them. Just wait.....
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Would you be this keen to support someone's "exercise of conscience" if the person was in the city Building department and the question of conscience they were struggling with was whether to issue a building permit for a JW Kingdom Hall?

The city is not an individual with a conscience. The person in the Building Permits Dept is not at liberty to legally prevent a permit for a building just because he doesn't personally approve of its use. He is an employee of the city and operates on its behalf. Anyone who lives in proximity to a Kingdom Hall has little to complain about. We are very well behaved.
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The person in the bakery is operating his own business and should be able to exercise his conscience whilst conducting it.

If the city decides for whatever reason to decline a permit for a Kingdom Hall, our legal department will be asking for grounds.
If legitimate grounds can be proven, then we will take our building elsewhere...perhaps to a city where there is less objection.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have no problem selling a cake for sharing a spot of afternoon tea with your family....that is none of my business...I am providing a neutral service.....but that is not the same as asking someone to violate their conscience and forcing them to do something that is specifically against their beliefs.

Look at your words. They say that the sexual orientation of others and its expression are your business. If they just want to have a spot of tea and cake, it's not your business. If they like to rub an innie against an innie or an outie against an outie, that's different. You need to step up and object. You need to refuse to comply with their wishes.

For myself personally, if I was forced to sell wedding cakes to gays in honor of their "marriage" I would either close up shop or sell something they would never need for such an occasion.

I'm good with that. Just don't discriminate.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't care about man's law when it contravenes God's law.

Then I'm sure you'll understand why an unbeliever doesn't and shouldn't care about what you call God's law when it contravenes man's law. Some Christians seem to expect us to. You might be one of them. Fine. They should pay the price for breaking man's law gladly and without objection.

I think you are missing the point. I am not a "homophobe" inasmuch as I have no interest in what people do in the privacy of their own homes. I would not lobby the government to ban them or punish them, or impose any other sanctions against them on the same basis as Jesus mentioned in Matthew 5:45......but I reserve the right to object to their lifestyle when it is transferred into my domain and I am expected to violate my conscience for the sake of what?...accommodating actions that the Bible clearly condemns?

That meets the definition of homophobe for many.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Then I'm sure you'll understand why an unbeliever doesn't and shouldn't care about what you call God's law when it contravenes man's law.

I don't know that I ever asked them to. For Christians, God's law comes first. Atheists can do whatever they like. That doesn't mean that I interfere with their choices or their lifestyle, except when it trespasses on my conscience.

Some Christians seem to expect us to. You might be one of them.
Since I never mix politics and religion, I will never "expect" people to do anything, nor would I lobby government to make or change laws to punish homosexuals. The only person whose behavior I have any say about, is myself. So when someone asks me to violate my conscience, I will never agree. And no one can make me. If they implement a penalty for my non-compliance, I will cop it on the chin because I will not compromise. Do you get that?
I won't make waves unless someone throws me in the water first.
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They should pay the price for breaking man's law gladly and without objection.

Indeed, just like the Christian martyrs did in the early centuries. Man's law will never override God's law for us.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Does the court brief filed yesterday support the ACLU writer’s opinion: Allowing someone to object to creating something for a customer based on religious or other reasons means that being able to discriminate for any reason is the logical next conclusion?
I think they’re exaggerating their case a little (though proponents on all sides of this issue can be equally guilty of that) but there is a valid core point. The fundamental argument being made is that if any law is brought in but religious person declares that following that law contradicts their beliefs, they should be free to ignore that law. I think it should be clear that regardless of the Constitution, that can’t be an unconditional principle.

I separate “making a wedding cake” from “selling a cake” to someone. Making and decorating a wedding cake is artistic. I fully support an artist of any type being able to refuse to create art that they don’t agree with. If I were a baker I could think of many things I would not want to decorate a cake with. I wouldn’t want to create a “KKK ROCKS! College Recruitment Party 2017” cake. I’d ask that they go somewhere else. I’d sell them a blank cake, though. They could come in with hoods and I’d sell them cupcakes. But I couldn’t stomach creating art for them.
That isn’t what any of these cases are about though. Some didn’t even get as far as the homosexual couples discussing the design of their cake with the bakers and in cases where they did, there was nothing fundamentally different in the kind of design they wanted. If a straight couple goes in and asked for a three-tier fruit cake with white icing and blue flowers and then a homosexual couple goes in and asks for a three-tier fruit cake with white icing and blue flowers, there’s no artistic justification for accepting the first but refusing the second.

The bakers are perfectly entitled to refuse to include a specific design feature (though they’d need to refuse it for all customers) but that’s an entirely separate issue (indeed, not at issue at all).

If they did make me, and I did it, and I did a terrible job … did I violate the law? “OH! I spelled KKK wrong!? And no, those aren’t pooh emojis, I just can’t draw those silly hats right!”
I suspect if it could be proven that a business intentionally did a bad job because the customer has a specific characteristic, they could fall foul of discrimination law. Of course, it they did a really bad job, the customer would presumably have a general right not to pay for the product.

I can see that there could be a slippery slope of which business are artistic vs not artistic, but it seems like that could be dealt with on a case by case basis and most things would be pretty obvious.
So artists should have more rights that engineers? I’m not convinced a case-by-case distinction could be efficiently of fairly applied to be honest. It would also mean that pretty much every case would be subject to a full court process to rule on that distinction.

Also, are you supporting the idea that religious people should have special rights non-religious people don’t. If I have a personal objection to homosexuality but aren’t religious (or don’t follow an officially recognised religion), can I still be forced to provide “artistic” services for homosexuals? The Constitution is the legal basis being used to support this and that only works for religious objections.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
I would have more respect for the LGBT activists if they did not just go after soft targets.


It seems his honesty has been his downfall.
 

Stanyon

WWMRD?
I want to know what you think about this.

It sounds like those who filed the complaint suffer from some sense of entitlement just because they are gay and want to force someone else to recognize it and want to go through legal channels to do so. I look at it like this, if a merchant refuses to sell me something then I'll just go down the street and pay someone else for the same thing giving them the profit- it's really that simple.

Here's a list of bakers around Lakewood Colorado:
Wedding Cake Bakeries in Lakewood, CO - The Knot

Now imagine if someone went to a Muslim or Kosher Jewish bakery and demanded a cake with bacon on it and filed a complaint if they refused for violating bacon eaters civil rights, I also wonder how that would be handled in the press and social media.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
I wonder how many shops they went to before they found someone that refused to do it.

As the bakery owner said, it took very little time before he started to get abusive phone calls.


 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I wonder how many shops they went to before they found someone that refused to do it.

My guess is fewer than the number of customers the baker served before finding one to refuse service to.

As the bakery owner said, it took very little time before he started to get abusive phone calls.

Do you object? The baker expressed his opinion, and others expressed theirs. Bakers are now aware of the cost to them for taking this position. They will be found guilty in the court of public opinion. They are free to choose how to proceed. Is there anything objectionable about that?
 
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