Can the Shudras study the Vedas....

[Ravi500]

I thought of starting a debate in the Debate Forum, but thought it better if I can discuss this over here whether the Shudras can study Vedas or not as I hold the view that established teachings of the religions (which pertains to the shrutis ) should not be challenged.

Yes, the smritis did not allow, perhaps due to the challenges of the times of teaching,but it is a fact that the smritis can be updated as per changing times and conditions, and the lack of doing so lead to gradual degradation of India and the rise of the religions Islam and Christianity and now Buddhism which is on a revival .

I am aware that many Hindu organisations now do teach the Shudras the Vedas, the Chinmaya Mission, RAmakrishna Mission ,Arya Samaj and many others.

Are they doing the right thing, and if not, what should be the proper course of action for the Shudras?

This is important as the Shudras form the vast majority in Hinduism.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Moved from other thread:
I don't want to get into an argument, but you're being silly. All I am saying is that per varNa dharma, i.e doing your duty as per ones varNa, a shUdra is not supposed to be reciting veda-s or doing sandhyAvandanam, just as I being a kShatriya am not in a position to be a pujArI. When sivAnand is saying that one must recite veda-s and follow varNAshrama to be Hindu, he is excluding shUdra-s from being Hindu, hence I pointed out my objection. Similarly, he states that one must worship avatAra-s to be Hindu, hence excluding certain shaiva-s, which I think is foolish of him. Also, please don't misinterpret my quotes; I am not casteist, nor would I ever agree with Adisha~NkarAchArya's "punishment" prescribed for shUdra-s who listen to the veda-s. However, from my readings, the shAstra-s do not seem to support the view that a shUdra should recite large portions of the veda-s, although this is kind of a blessing rather than a curse, as they attain mokShaH much more easily, which is a benefit of the kaliyuga according to the viShNupurANam:

"Being thus addressed by the Munis, Vyása smiled, and said to them, "Hear, excellent sages, why I uttered the words 'Well done, well done.' The fruit of penance, of continence, of silent prayer, and the like, practised in the Krita age for ten years, in the Treta for one year, in the Dwápara for a month, is obtained in the Kali age in a day and night: therefore did I exclaim, 'Excellent, excellent, is the Kali age!' That reward which a man obtains in the Krita by abstract meditation, in the Treta by sacrifice, in the Dwápara by adoration, he receives in the Kali by merely reciting the name of Keśava. In the Kali age a man displays the most exalted virtue by very little exertion; therefore, pious sages, who know what virtue is, I was pleased with the Kali age. Formerly the Vedas were to be acquired by the twice-born through the diligent observance of self-denial; and it was their duty to celebrate sacrifices conformably to the ritual. Then idle prayers, idle feasts, and fruitless ceremonies, were practised but to mislead the twice-born; for although observed by them devoutly, yet, in consequence of some irregularity in their celebration, sin was incurred in all their works, and what they ate, or what they drank, did not effect the fulfilment of their desires. In all their objects the twice-born enjoyed no independence, and they attained their respective spheres only with exceeding pain. The Śúdra, on the contrary, more fortunate than they, reaches his assigned station by rendering them service, and performing merely the sacrifice of preparing food, in which no rules determine what may or may not be eaten, what may or may not be drunk. Therefore, most excellent sages, is the Śúdra fortunate."

 

[Ravi500]

However, from my readings, the shAstra-s do not seem to support the view that a shUdra should recite large portions of the veda-s, although this is kind of a blessing rather than a curse, as they attain mokShaH much more easily, which is a benefit of the kaliyuga according to the viShNupurANam:

Does the Shastras over here mean the smritis or the shrutis !

However, from my readings, the shAstra-s do not seem to support the view that a shUdra should recite large portions of the veda-s, although this is kind of a blessing rather than a curse, as they attain mokShaH much more easily, which is a benefit of the kaliyuga according to the viShNupurANam:

Also Swami Sivananda does not appear to be casteist himself , as he had a Dalit guru for martial arts, and prostrated before him.

The varnashrama dharma he stated could be the fluid one, which is the true one as well, where one's karma determines the caste and not birth.

The very fact that Siddhartha born in the Kshatriya caste,Guru Raidas born in the Shudra caste became brahmins by karma, illustrates this fact.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Does the Shastras over here mean the smritis or the shrutis !

praNAm,
Both really, I remember there being a verse in the ashvalAyana gR^ihyasUtram pertaining to only dvija-s being allowed to recite the veda-s, and chhAndogyopaniShad 5.10.7 also gives one the impression that varNa is birth-based.

Also Swami Sivananda does not appear to be casteist himself , as he had a Dalit guru for martial arts, and prostrated before him.

The varnashrama dharma he stated could be the fluid one, which is the true one as well, where one's karma determines the caste and not birth.

The very fact that Siddhartha born in the Kshatriya caste,Guru Raidas born in the Shudra caste became brahmins by karma, illustrates this fact.

A shUdra can act like a brAhmaNa, sure, but it's not his duty to chant the veda-s. kR^iShNa, in the gItA, stresses niShkAmakarmayoga. If one is to chant from the veda-s when that is not one of that individual's prescribed nityakarma-s, then it shows attachment to another individuals work, which is exactly what is condemned in BG 18:47. For a shUdra, there is no requirement to recite veda-s, whereas for many dvija-s, it is obligatory for mokShaH; shUdra-s can attain the same station just through bhakti and nAmajapa, so what is the purpose of a shUdra in reciting mantram-s from the veda-s or performing a yaj~na?

 

[Ravi500]

praNAm,
Both really, I remember there being a verse in the ashvalAyana gR^ihyasUtram pertaining to only dvija-s being allowed to recite the veda-s, and chhAndogyopaniShad 5.10.7 also gives one the impression that varNa is birth-based.

And may we see that teaching over here.

How would you account then for the fact that Satyakama Jabala, an illegitimate son of a prostitute, became a Rishi, and had even compiled some portions of the vedic texts !

A shUdra can act like a brAhmaNa, sure, but it's not his duty to chant the veda-s.

kR^iShNa, in the gItA, stresses niShkAmakarmayoga. If one is to chant from the veda-s when that is not one of that individual's prescribed nityakarma-s, then it shows attachment to another individuals work, which is exactly what is condemned in BG 18:47. For a shUdra, there is no requirement to recite veda-s, whereas for many dvija-s, it is obligatory for mokShaH; shUdra-s can attain the same station just through bhakti and nAmajapa, so what is the purpose of a shUdra in reciting mantram-s from the veda-s or performing a yaj~na?

And the shudra over here is one who does manual work, and is action-based, not birth-based.

There are indeed many of the upper castes in India who does manual work, and can be seen as shudras, while many of the lower castes perform the functions of higher offices and can be seen as brahmanas and kshatriyas.

Surely such can indeed study the vedas, as many are doing now, right !

 

[Vinayaka]

I thought of starting a debate in the Debate Forum, but thought it better if I can discuss this over here whether the Shudras can study Vedas or not as I hold the view that established teachings of the religions (which pertains to the shrutis ) should not be challenged.

Yes, the smritis did not allow, perhaps due to the challenges of the times of teaching,but it is a fact that the smritis can be updated as per changing times and conditions, and the lack of doing so lead to gradual degradation of India and the rise of the religions Islam and Christianity and now Buddhism which is on a revival .

I am aware that many Hindu organisations now do teach the Shudras the Vedas, the Chinmaya Mission, RAmakrishna Mission ,Arya Samaj and many others.

Are they doing the right thing, and if not, what should be the proper course of action for the Shudras?

This is important as the Shudras form the vast majority in Hinduism.

Well then I'm out cause I'm somewhere below a shudra.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If they can compile the Vedas (VedaVyasa), no reason they cannot read it.

 

[Ravi500]

If they can compile the Vedas (VedaVyasa), no reason they cannot read it.

And Chandragupta Maurya of Shudra origin was the first emperor of India in official history.

With India being a democray, and with the shudras the vast majority in the country, and hence the ones with political power potentially, I would say majority of the shudras would attain kshatriyahood and brahminhood in the coming years, and attaining the cultural levels to understand and study the Vedas.

 

[Aupmanyav]

There are indeed many of the upper castes in India who does manual work, and can be seen as shudras, while many of the lower castes perform the functions of higher offices and can be seen as brahmanas and kshatriyas.

Gentlemen, you are making a basic mistake, confusing here between 'varna' and 'caste'. The two things are completely different. 'Varna' if we go by Gita is God-arranged (Chaturvarna maya srishtam). That is the inclination that God has put in him/her.

Now this person can be born in any caste, brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya, or shudra. There are brahmins who may be clerical workers. God gave them the inclination of a shudra.

And there was Raidas or Namdeva. God had given them 'brahmin' varna, but they were born among shudras. But what God gave them shows. They transcend their castes.

Varna: God given qualities ----------Kindly understand this very clearly.
Caste: the accident of birth ---------Lord Brahma's doing perhaps because of their karmas in previous births.

Well then I'm out cause I'm somewhere below a shudra.

How come, Vinayaka?

 

[ShivaFan]

Namaste

Anyone can "study" anything, that does not mean mastery of it. Five different people can "study" art, chemistry, medical science, math and mechanics. One may master art, another math, another both math and mechanics, none of the five may ever achieve a "license" to practice medicine.

Along the way, someone may seem tu have a natural ability such as art, but then be suddenly handicaped by a disease and blinded, or a great surgeon has a form of a tick born paralysis that leaves the arms inoperable to hold a scalpel.

Yet some blinded can still be great teachers of art. Some say, you can to be born with a natural ability for art, and it may be true most artists may be born with that ability, yet there are some great teachers even who are blind but so great a teacher they are they can teach a young student who seems to have no such ability to become a master of fine art. But such a teacher can have only so many students, and it is the teacher who decides what to teach and to whom, and as to why such a teacher may choose a student with no natural ability at all may be an expression of the teacher to demonstrate the power of art itself and his own expression of art at a higher level by making such a student the canvas itself. But some may not have the good fortune to meet such a teacher.

Another may have the natural ability to be a doctor, but cannot acquire a "license" or medical degree to practice medicine due to poverty, the cost of such education and credentials, an evil or politically ideologue government, yet another may be born in a rich family or "connected" family and have easy opportunity to exercise a skill in the medical field and this person's parents themselves may already be doctors which makes transfer of knowledge and navigating your way through the "system" even easier. However one may have the luck or grace to be born in a country that values medical practition highly, and offer opportunity and assistance to anyone poor or minority to have opportunity to acquire such credentials if one can "pass the tests" along the way.

Life is unfair to some. There can be many reasons for this. You may be born in a bad family of drunkards, or in a good and moral family. You may be born in a rich family, a rich clan, or a rich country. Or you may be born in a poor family, or a poor clan, or a poor country. Any which of factors may make things "easy" or hobbel you.

Some may be born where there is ample food or rich resources, another where there is little. Some may be born where cleanliness and the environment around one is preserved, another born where every pollution prevails. This can foreshadow results and hopes. Some are born in a time of peace. And some are born in a time of war.

Since most can remember, there have always been on Bhumi Mother Earth the priests, the soldiers, the traders and farmers, the laborers. Not always. Perhaps one time there were only priests, or only priests and wandering hunters and gatherers, or only priests and wanderers and soldiers, or only priests and wanderers and soldiers and also settled farmers and then cities and then workers, and then so many things it became hard to manage it all.

The Vedas tell us all these things existed and existed in this world. But there are also paths of a different sort, a higher mind. And then some Divines also said just to accept that Name of the Divine and it can change yourself in one life, or one year, or one minute.

There is no debate, actually. No one can "stop" or "not allow" anything. Not for very long. That is a waste of energy. It is better to share what is good. Even with that, there is no 100 percent answer at the material level. There are many things which, on the material level, there never will be a "solution". Many demand an instant solution. But on the material level, you probably will always have the poor, there will be other things unfair. That is the way of things, so we read about that too in scriptures because truth is told no matter. But on a divine level, all is possible and can even change the material. The divine needs to be open. If you try to hide it, your entire house will be eaten by the termites of the material. If it is open, those who develop and those who do not is going to take it's course sooner or later. It is none of your business because you control nothing but yourself, you can only influence.

Om Namah Sivaya

 

[Ravi500]

Gentlemen, you are making a basic mistake, confusing here between 'varna' and 'caste'. The two things are completely different. 'Varna' if we go by Gita is God-arranged (Chaturvarna maya srishtam). That is the inclination that God has put in him/her.

I believe I have taken into account the 'inclination' and 'temperament' while interpreting caste based on one's action or karma.

It is actually the varna system that is mentioned in the shrutis, while the birth-based caste system came up in the smritis, perhaps written in some challenging times, which unfortunately was not updated in time.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

It is actually the varna system that is mentioned in the shrutis, while the birth-based caste system came up in the smritis, perhaps written in some challenging times, which unfortunately was not updated in time.

Now that is what we call baseless neo-Hindu conjecture.

 

[ShivaFan]

Namaste Ravi

Ravi500: It is actually the varna system that is mentioned in the shrutis, while the birth-based caste system came up in the smritis, perhaps written in some challenging times, which unfortunately was not updated in time.

This is a wise analysis, and it is your sense and knowledge of history that supports your inference which makes it credible.

I have thought the same in this regard, and those who teach me seem to confirm that it is the wisdom that is heard and transmitted which refers to varna, and paramount per those who teach is the Vedas. While smritis or "law books" may hold value, they came after the timeless Vedas, and actually there are more than one edition of the "same" smriti (and many commentaries to such law books) which is based in a time/place when a law may have pertained to some particular political, social, war, crisis in Bharat, some contain a lot of "additions" put in by those who really were thinking of self interest. While there are also wise slokas that perhaps Manu (the REAL Manu) versed in a glorious past, these may have been added also to the "law books" to give them an air of authority.

But to me, they have no authority. Also I am taught, the actual Law Book for this Age IS STILL TO COME, I am not interested in this "Laws of Manu" (the one promoted by the British) edition at all, parts of it are actually laughable and I give it no more authority than the Jataka Tales.

I know you may not agree with me, but I agree with those who teach me that Varna is know as the social classes which pretty much all societies acknowledge, this Varna does not mean jati or caste, and it is this caste that has become 6000 jati that they claim is "birth based". There are few things I hate, but this is one of them. Certainly Karma can put you in a situation of a good or bad birth, but no one is hobbled to some particular profession by birth for an entire life (e.g. jati system), that is not what reformers such as Krishna taught, and certainly not what Saivas teach either.

There are very, very few "Brahmins" today that I respect, actually, and I see the Varnas based on qualities and character, and actually a Guru (which is more modern than a Rishi actually but valid in this Age) can give any student the Varna of that Guru and the qualities and character. THAT is why THEY are very careful whom they choose as disciple or initiate etc., because the wrong call and the GURU TAKES THE KARMA OF THE STUDENT or Brahmacharya.

I am a Grihasta, not a Brahmacharya, but my Ishta is Hanuman as a Brahmacharya. Yes it is true, Saiva's mostly do not take an Ishta, and I might be called a Smarta, but actually I have no choice but that Hanuman is my Ishta and I am not going to lie and say I do not. But you can see I admire the Brahmacharyas greatly.

I am very disappointed in this Age, where I see some Gurus who call themselves Brahmins but then are child molesters.

It is ego which makes one think I am "this or that", for example I would like to consider myself a great King or Soldier, like a Kshatriya. But words are cheap, the only thing that counts IS RESULTS. One can say they are a Kshatriya, but what are they doing in daily life to earn such a title? Are they a King or Queen or Prince? Or a great Hierophant of Political savvy? Can they support multiple wives? Also simply being a "soldier" does not mean you are a Kshatriya. No. There are many soldiers or police who are low class.

So there seems to be many Kshatriya's today in the age of Kali. Too many.

Something is wrong.

There was an article in Hinduism Today about some REAL Brahmins of the Saiva tradition. Now they were real ones. Yes, we should protect the TRUE Brahmins, the wise who show RESULTS and whose character and quality is what we admire. 99% of all "Western Hindus" have NO desire to be a pujari for some temple. But even a pujari is not what is a TRUE Brahmin.

There are two wise members on this very forum whom I consider TRUE Brahmins, and one was Western born, another who does not consider the Devatas as the all to be all (which you do not like, I know). There is a third member who is an expert on the Vedas, and probably is a Rishi or soon to be.

But those are few and far between.

Om Namah Sivaya

 

[Aupmanyav]

It is quite simple to understand. Indigenous people had their 'jatis', and Aryans came in with their 'varnas'. Even Zoroastrians have the four-fold division of the society. Then the 'jatis' were adjusted in four 'varnas'. Now, like the rest of the world, we have five 'jatis' - stinkingly rich, rich, middle class, poor, and the starving.

 

[Ravi500]

Now that is what we call baseless neo-Hindu conjecture.

And how does it become baseless neo-Hindu conjecture !!

 

[Ravi500]

It is quite simple to understand. Indigenous people had their 'jatis', and Aryans came in with their 'varnas'. Even Zoroastrians have the four-fold division of the society. Then the 'jatis' were adjusted in four 'varnas'. Now, like the rest of the world, we have five 'jatis' - stinkingly rich, rich, middle class, poor, and the starving.

Wish to state here that Arya means noble or a civilized person in Hinduism. It does not have any racial connotation whatsoever, as made up by the european pseudoscholars in the 19th century.

I have stated this before that it is the tremondous negative karma created by the european scholars in distorting the universalist Arya culture into a race related one lead to the second world war and the tremondous destruction and suffering that followed in its wake.

All sects of Hinduism are also unanimous in their consensus that Arya means the cultured or civilized one, and does not have any racial connection whatsoever.

 

[Ravi500]

Namaste Ravi



This is a wise analysis, and it is your sense and knowledge of history that supports your inference which makes it credible.

Thank you. :namaste

I have thought the same in this regard, and those who teach me seem to confirm that it is the wisdom that is heard and transmitted which refers to varna, and paramount per those who teach is the Vedas. While smritis or "law books" may hold value, they came after the timeless Vedas, and actually there are more than one edition of the "same" smriti (and many commentaries to such law books) which is based in a time/place when a law may have pertained to some particular political, social, war, crisis in Bharat, some contain a lot of "additions" put in by those who really were thinking of self interest.

Yes,it is important to note that the birth-based caste system is not at all present in the Shrutis which is the reason why the Hindu institutions are now teaching Vedas to the Shudras.

It came into origin through the Manusmriti, probably to compress and consolidate the brahminical, kshatriya , vaishya and shudra work cultures into different compact masses, and developing the culture of each to a very high level in the process, as pertaining to the caste.

This could be due to the challenges of material civilization at that times, which was not well-developed.

As I said before, the Shudras performing manual work, and lacking sufficient literary and cultural levels, were not allowed to perform the vedic rites which required precision in pronounciation lacking which the recitation can be counter-productive and create negativity.

Those Shudras which attained such cultural and literary levels in course of time were promoted as the upper castes, and allowed to perform the vedic rites.

And the upper castes which failed to maintain the prescribed vedic rites were also demoted to the lower castes.

Shankara himself had uplifted many lower castes to higher castes during his travels all over India.

This was also practiced by Ramanuja.

While there are also wise slokas that perhaps Manu (the REAL Manu) versed in a glorious past, these may have been added also to the "law books" to give them an air of authority.

Yes, there has been a lot of interpolations from what I understand.

There were also brahmins who were interested in ensuring the privileged position they enjoyed continued.

But to me, they have no authority. Also I am taught, the actual Law Book for this Age IS STILL TO COME, I am not interested in this "Laws of Manu" (the one promoted by the British) edition at all, parts of it are actually laughable and I give it no more authority than the Jataka Tales.

The smritis are created for certain times and conditions, and are bound to change when the conditions and times changes, and new ones are required to meet presently existing challenges of civilization.

As Churchill himself said, " The only constant is change itself. "

During the times of Buddha and Mahavira, who expounded equality of all and universal brotherhood, the smritis were probably ready to be updated to more democratic forms as per the civilizational needs.

This was not done properly at the right time, and hence India deteriorated gradually and became a victim to foreign invasions by progressive nations, which further degraded the nation and reduced it to poverty and slavery.

At present, the Ambedkar Smriti rules India, which proclaims equality, fraternity and liberty of all.

I know you may not agree with me, but I agree with those who teach me that Varna is know as the social classes which pretty much all societies acknowledge, this Varna does not mean jati or caste, and it is this caste that has become 6000 jati that they claim is "birth based". There are few things I hate, but this is one of them. Certainly Karma can put you in a situation of a good or bad birth, but no one is hobbled to some particular profession by birth for an entire life (e.g. jati system), that is not what reformers such as Krishna taught, and certainly not what Saivas teach either.

There are very, very few "Brahmins" today that I respect, actually, and I see the Varnas based on qualities and character, and actually a Guru (which is more modern than a Rishi actually but valid in this Age) can give any student the Varna of that Guru and the qualities and character. THAT is why THEY are very careful whom they choose as disciple or initiate etc., because the wrong call and the GURU TAKES THE KARMA OF THE STUDENT or Brahmacharya.

Thank you for these interesting comments. :namaste

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

Am not sure that in this age we should be discussing such a topic because everyone can read anything on the net; none can stop even the gods.
However understanding of things in its essence of what one reads would depend on background and present karma. Background is inborn which cannot be changed but karma can of which nishkam karma is the highest.

Would love to read the final outcome of this discussion when concluded.

Love & rgds

 

[Ravi500]

Friends,

Am not sure that in this age we should be discussing such a topic because everyone can read anything on the net; none can stop even the gods.

Yes, and the discussion is to bring clarity to all with respect to the truth. :namaste

Let us not forget that the Shudras form the brute majority of Hindus in India, and their upliftment is necessary for upliftment of India as a whole.

However understanding of things in its essence of what one reads would depend on background and present karma. Background is inborn which cannot be changed but karma can of which nishkam karma is the highest.

Would love to read the final outcome of this discussion when concluded.

Thank you for these comments. :namaste

 

[Aupmanyav]

Let us not forget that the Shudras form the brute majority of Hindus in India, and their upliftment is necessary for upliftment of India as a whole.

Ravi nobody has conducted any census. And then there are grey areas. Jats, till now were not shudras, now they are. There have been so many inclusions in the list. The government figures are what they want to project. It is a matter of political expediency and benefits. The various lists. Those who are now bracketed in 'Other Backward Classes' want to be listed as 'Scheduled caste/tribes', because it gives them more facilities. The real have-nots have been forgotten. The pink layer now starts at 6 lacs (hundred thousand) these days. This is politics.