Can the Shudras study the Vedas....

[Jaskaran Singh]

And how does it become baseless neo-Hindu conjecture !!

Apart from your mention of the story of satyakAma jAbAla (which could be interpreted in many ways, I may add), you haven't stated anything from shruti which could be viewed as going against birth-based varNa. That makes it kind of a baseless claim; the neo-Hindu part comes from the fact that this view is often peddled by neo-Hindus (you yourself said you wanted to "update Hinduism") and conjecture part pertains to the fact that it's an assumption. I hope that cleared up your doubts.

Shankara himself had uplifted many lower castes to higher castes during his travels all over India.

This was also practiced by Ramanuja.

Yet neither of them believed that shUdra-s should listen to the veda recition, much less learn it and recite it themselves:

From rAmAnuja's shrIbhAShyam:

"The Sûdra is specially forbidden to hear and study the Veda and to perform the things enjoined in it. 'For a Sûdra is like a cemetery, therefore the Veda must not be read in the vicinity of a Sûdra;' 'Therefore the Sûdra is like a beast, unfit for sacrifices.' And he who does not hear the Veda recited cannot learn it so as to understand and perform what the Veda enjoins. The prohibition of hearing thus implies the prohibition of understanding and whatever depends on it."
Source:http://www.bharatadesam.com/spiritu...nuja/vedanta_sutra_commentary_ramanuja136.php

From Adisha~NkarAchArya's brahmasUtrabhAShyam:

"The Sûdras are not qualified for that reason also that Smriti prohibits their hearing the Veda, their studying the Veda, and their understanding and performing Vedic matters. The prohibition of hearing the Veda is conveyed by the following passages: 'The ears of him who hears the Veda are to be filled with (molten) lead and lac,' and 'For a Sûdra is (like) a cemetery, therefore (the Veda) is not to be read in the vicinity of a Sûdra.' From this latter passage the prohibition of studying the Veda results at once; for how should he study Scripture in whose vicinity it is not even to be read? There is, moreover, an express prohibition (of the Sûdras studying the Veda). 'His tongue is to be slit if he pronounces it; his body is to be cut through if he preserves it.' The prohibitions of hearing and studying the Veda already imply the prohibition of the knowledge and performance of Vedic matters; there are, however, express prohibitions also, such as 'he is not to impart knowledge to the Sûdra,' and 'to the twice-born belong study, sacrifice, and the bestowal of gifts.'--From those Sûdras, however, who, like Vidura and 'the religious hunter,' acquire knowledge in consequence of the after effects of former deeds, the fruit of their knowledge cannot be withheld, since knowledge in all cases brings about its fruit. Smriti, moreover, declares that all the four castes are qualified for acquiring the knowledge of the itihâsas and purânas; compare the passage, 'He is to teach the four castes' (Mahâbh.).--It remains, however, a settled point that they do not possess any such qualification with regard to the Veda."
Source:http://www.bharatadesam.com/spiritual/brahma_sutra/brahma_sutra_sankara_34107.php

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

At present, the Ambedkar Smriti rules India, which proclaims equality, fraternity and liberty of all.

Would you mind telling me what that was, because it certainly wasn't the Indian constitution.

"The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar:
Sir, looking back on the work of the Constituent Assembly it will now be two years, eleven months and seventeen days since it first met on the 9th of December 1946. During this period the Constituent Assembly has altogether held eleven sessions. Out of these eleven sessions the first six were spent in passing the Objectives Resolution and the consideration of the Reports of Committees on Fundamental Rights, on Union Constitution, on Union Powers, on Provincial Constitution, on Minorities and on the Scheduled Areas and Scheduled Tribes. The seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth and the eleventh sessions were devoted to the consideration of the Draft Constitution. These eleven sessions of the Constituent Assembly have consumed 165 days. Out of these, the Assembly spent 114 days for the consideration of the Draft Constitution.

Coming to the Drafting Committee, it was elected by the Constituent Assembly on 29th August 1947. It held its first meeting on 30th August. Since August 30th it sat for 141 days during which it was engaged in the preparation of the Draft Constitution. The Draft Constitution as prepared by the Constitutional Adviser as a text for the Drafting Committee to work upon, consisted of 243 articles and 13 Schedules. The first Draft Constitution as presented by the Drafting Committee to the Constituent Assembly contained 315 articles and 8 Schedules. At the end of the consideration stage, the number of articles in the Draft Constitution increased to 386. In its final form, the Draft Constitution contains 395 articles and 8 Schedules. The total number of amendments to the Draft Constitution tabled was approximately 7,635. Of them, the total number of amendments actually moved in the House were 2,473."

To the contrary, he was a fan of British rule of India:
"...Addressing the British Prime Minister, Ambedkar said, "Prime minister, permit me to make one thing clear. The depressed classes are not anxious, they are not clamorous, they have not started any movement for claiming that there shall be an immediate transfer of power from the British to the Indian people.... Their position, to put it plainly, is that we are not anxious for transfer of power from the British to the Indian people."...."

 

[Ravi500]

Apart from your mention of the story of satyakAma jAbAla (which could be interpreted in many ways, I may add), you haven't stated anything from shruti which could be viewed as going against birth-based varNa.

And you have not stated anything of shruti which is favouring birth-based varna.

The various Hindu institutions, including the Arya Samaj,Chinmaya Mission and Ramakrishna mission, which teach the Vedas to the Shudras are doing so on the basis of shruti and not smriti.

If indeed, there was anything in the shrutis which prohibits this, they would not have done the same.

Yet neither of them believed that shUdra-s should listen to the veda recition, much less learn it and recite it themselves:

From rAmAnuja's shrIbhAShyam:

"The Sûdra is specially forbidden to hear and study the Veda and to perform the things enjoined in it. 'For a Sûdra is like a cemetery, therefore the Veda must not be read in the vicinity of a Sûdra;' 'Therefore the Sûdra is like a beast, unfit for sacrifices.' And he who does not hear the Veda recited cannot learn it so as to understand and perform what the Veda enjoins. The prohibition of hearing thus implies the prohibition of understanding and whatever depends on it."
Source:SriBhashya - Ramanujas Commentary On Brahma Sutra (Vedanta Sutra) - Brahma Sutra Sribhashya Ramanuja Vedanta Sutra Commentary Ramanuja136

From Adisha~NkarAchArya's brahmasUtrabhAShyam:

"The Sûdras are not qualified for that reason also that Smriti prohibits their hearing the Veda, their studying the Veda, and their understanding and performing Vedic matters. The prohibition of hearing the Veda is conveyed by the following passages: 'The ears of him who hears the Veda are to be filled with (molten) lead and lac,' and 'For a Sûdra is (like) a cemetery, therefore (the Veda) is not to be read in the vicinity of a Sûdra.' From this latter passage the prohibition of studying the Veda results at once; for how should he study Scripture in whose vicinity it is not even to be read? There is, moreover, an express prohibition (of the Sûdras studying the Veda). 'His tongue is to be slit if he pronounces it; his body is to be cut through if he preserves it.' The prohibitions of hearing and studying the Veda already imply the prohibition of the knowledge and performance of Vedic matters; there are, however, express prohibitions also, such as 'he is not to impart knowledge to the Sûdra,' and 'to the twice-born belong study, sacrifice, and the bestowal of gifts.'--From those Sûdras, however, who, like Vidura and 'the religious hunter,' acquire knowledge in consequence of the after effects of former deeds, the fruit of their knowledge cannot be withheld, since knowledge in all cases brings about its fruit. Smriti, moreover, declares that all the four castes are qualified for acquiring the knowledge of the itihâsas and purânas; compare the passage, 'He is to teach the four castes' (Mahâbh.).--It remains, however, a settled point that they do not possess any such qualification with regard to the Veda."
Source:Brahmasutra Bhashya Of Shankaracharya - Commentary Of Shankaracharya On Vedanta Sutras - Brahma Sutra Brahma Sutra Sankara 34107

And I have also stated that it is on the basis of varna that the shudra was identified.

The shudra is identified as one who is given to much pain, due to attachment to sensory pleasures, and tamasic in nature hence, as opposed to the Brahmana who is attached to self-awareness and sattvic in nature.

And it was with this interpretation in mind, that Shankara and Ramanuja stated the following.


There are indeed many born in the Brahmana caste who may be shudra in nature by varna, while many born in the Shudra caste may be Brahmin in nature.

The Manu Smriti itself states the following...

As the son of a Sudra can attain the rank of a Brahmin, the son of Brahmin can attain rank of a sudra. Even so with him who is born of a Vaishya or a Kshatriya.



Same was said by Paramahamsa Yogananda...

"These were (originally) symbolic designations of the stages of spiritual refinement. They were not intended as social categories. And they were not intended to be hereditary. Things changed as the yugas [cycles of time] descended toward mental darkness. People in the higher castes wanted to make sure their children were accepted as members of their own caste. Thus, ego-identification caused them to freeze the ancient classifications into what is called the ‘caste system.’ Such was not the original intention. In obvious fact, however, the offspring of a Brahmin may be a Sudra by nature. And a peasant, sometimes, is a real saint.”

 

[Poeticus]

Well then I'm out cause I'm somewhere below a shudra.

1. Brahmin
2. Kshatriya
3. Vaishya
4. Shudra
2,897. Vinayaka
34,954. Poeticus​

 

[Ravi500]

Would you mind telling me what that was, because it certainly wasn't the Indian constitution.

It is a well-known fact that Ambedkar is the architect of the present Indian constitution, and the present constitution is run under his written direction.Perhaps your being born and brought up in Pakistan has not acquainted you much with Indian political culture.

To the contrary, he was a fan of British rule of India:
"...Addressing the British Prime Minister, Ambedkar said, "Prime minister, permit me to make one thing clear. The depressed classes are not anxious, they are not clamorous, they have not started any movement for claiming that there shall be an immediate transfer of power from the British to the Indian people.... Their position, to put it plainly, is that we are not anxious for transfer of power from the British to the Indian people."...."

And he had every right to say so, considering that the smritis had not been changed or updated.

And it was with the Indian constitution, which is popularly called the Ambedkar Smriti which proclaimed equality, liberty and fraternity arose in India.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

praNAm,

And you have not stated anything of shruti which is favouring birth-based varna.

Uh, yes I did:

Both really, I remember there being a verse in the ashvalAyana gR^ihyasUtram pertaining to only dvija-s being allowed to recite the veda-s, and chhAndogyopaniShad 5.10.7 also gives one the impression that varNa is birth-based.

Let's see that verse, shall we?:

Source: https://archive.org/details/Shankara.Bhashya-Chandogya.Upanishad-Ganganath.Jha.1942.English

The various Hindu institutions, including the Arya Samaj,Chinmaya Mission and Ramakrishna mission, which teach the Vedas to the Shudras are doing so on the basis of shruti and not smriti.

The founder of the AryasamAj espoused the absurd view that the veda-s were monotheistic (lol), members of the rAmakR^iShNa mission has been known to offer meat as prasAdam, and swAmI chinmayAnanda has neo-Hindu tendencies which are probably shared by his followers; none of those institutions could be considered truly traditional.

If indeed, there was anything in the shrutis which prohibits this, they would not have done the same.

The veda-s denounce beef eating, but that didn't prevent vivekAnanda from promoting his three "B's": "beef, biceps, and the bhagavadgItA."

And I have also stated that it is on the basis of varna that the shudra was identified.

The shudra is identified as one who is given to much pain, due to attachment to sensory pleasures, and tamasic in nature hence, as opposed to the Brahmana who is attached to self-awareness and sattvic in nature.

And it was with this interpretation in mind, that Shankara and Ramanuja stated the following.

Uh, no. From the same source (https://archive.org/details/Shankara.Bhashya-Chandogya.Upanishad-Ganganath.Jha.1942.English):

There are indeed many born in the Brahmana caste who may be shudra in nature by varna, while many born in the Shudra caste may be Brahmin in nature.

The Manu Smriti itself states the following...

As the son of a Sudra can attain the rank of a Brahmin, the son of Brahmin can attain rank of a sudra. Even so with him who is born of a Vaishya or a Kshatriya.

Attaining the same rank or status is not the same as being a brAhmaNa. shUdra-s are already higher than brAhmaNa-s in some regards; as I stated previously,
according to the viShNupurANam, a shUdra is more blessed and fortunate than the dvija-s, as they can attain mokShaH merely through harinAma.

Same was said by Paramahamsa Yogananda...

"These were (originally) symbolic designations of the stages of spiritual refinement. They were not intended as social categories. And they were not intended to be hereditary. Things changed as the yugas [cycles of time] descended toward mental darkness. People in the higher castes wanted to make sure their children were accepted as members of their own caste. Thus, ego-identification caused them to freeze the ancient classifications into what is called the ‘caste system.’ Such was not the original intention. In obvious fact, however, the offspring of a Brahmin may be a Sudra by nature. And a peasant, sometimes, is a real saint.”

yogAnanda was not a traditional Hindu, as I've said many times before.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Ravi,

Let us not forget that the Shudras form the brute majority of Hindus in India, and their upliftment is necessary for upliftment of India as a whole.

Personally in this age am not sure of my own caste nor bother about to which any other belongs because as everything as its meaning in every age rather importance of values depends on time and space and personally if you ask me shall say caste has lost its significance today.

Next if you still know or practise such differentiation amongst fellow humans then you need to change your own understanding as only that will change your perception about the subject.

In short, personally do not discriminate between any two people on the basis of caste, creed, colour, sex, nationality, language etc. etc.

Love & rgds

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

It is a well-known fact that Ambedkar is the architect of the present Indian constitution, and the present constitution is run under his written direction.Perhaps your being born and brought up in Pakistan has not acquainted you much with Indian political culture.

Really, you think that because I'm Pakistani, I'm "not acquainted with Indian political culture"? Also, did you just ignore that huge quote about the Drafting Committee?

Anyway, from the same speech (if you still don't believe me)
Ambedkar: "The credit that is given to me does not really belong to me. It belongs partly to Sir B. N. Rau, the Constitutional Adviser to the Constituent Assembly who prepared a rough draft of the Constitution for the consideration of the Drafting Committee. A part of the credit must go to the members of the Drafting Committee who, as I have said, have sat for 141 days and without whose ingenuity of devise new formulae and capacity to tolerate and to accommodate different points of view, the task of framing the Constitution could not have come to so successful a conclusion. Much greater, share of the credit must go to Mr. S. N. Mukherjee, the Chief Draftsman of the Constitution. His ability to put the most intricate proposals in the simplest and clearest legal form can rarely be equalled, nor his capacity for hard work."

 

[Ravi500]

Uh, yes I did:
Let's see that verse, shall we?:

This is not at all evidence for any birth-based system. Lol...

The ones of good karma will be born as one with brahmanical tendencies , kshatriya tendencies or vaishya tendencies, again as per varna or one's aptitude or inclination.

The one's of bad conduct or bad karma will be born as one with the tendencies of a shudra... denoting one of great tamas , pain and attachment to sensory pleasures.

The founder of the AryasamAj espoused the absurd view that the veda-s were monotheistic (lol), members of the rAmakR^iShNa mission has been known to offer meat as prasAdam, and swAmI chinmayAnanda has neo-Hindu tendencies which are probably shared by his followers; none of those institutions could be considered truly traditional.

The founders of these institutions are sages who has millions of followers all over India and the world.

To assess such sagely figures in such a disparaging manner denotes lack of proper intellectual understanding ,perhaps mainly for reasons that you were not born and brought up in India, but in pakistan where a well-established Hindu culture does not exist.

yogAnanda was not a traditional Hindu, as I've said many times before.

He is a figure of Hinduism nonetheless,with a great presence in India as well, and a great saint who spread the teachings of Hinduism all over the world.

I don't think you are well-qualified to assess him, in my humble opinion .

 

[Ravi500]

Really, you think that because I'm Pakistani, I'm "not acquainted with Indian political culture"? Also, did you just ignore that huge quote about the Drafting Committee?

Anyway, from the same speech (if you still don't believe me)
Ambedkar: "The credit that is given to me does not really belong to me. It belongs partly to Sir B. N. Rau, the Constitutional Adviser to the Constituent Assembly who prepared a rough draft of the Constitution for the consideration of the Drafting Committee. A part of the credit must go to the members of the Drafting Committee who, as I have said, have sat for 141 days and without whose ingenuity of devise new formulae and capacity to tolerate and to accommodate different points of view, the task of framing the Constitution could not have come to so successful a conclusion. Much greater, share of the credit must go to Mr. S. N. Mukherjee, the Chief Draftsman of the Constitution. His ability to put the most intricate proposals in the simplest and clearest legal form can rarely be equalled, nor his capacity for hard work."

And, as the creator of the constitution, he simply showed his appreciation for his subordinates, just as the director of a film politely shows his regard for his actors, scritptwriters , producer and so on... after the movie is released.

 

[Ravi500]

Friend Ravi,

Personally in this age am not sure of my own caste nor bother about to which any other belongs because as everything as its meaning in every age rather importance of values depends on time and space and personally if you ask me shall say caste has lost its significance today.

I appreciate these comments of yours. Caste has indeed lost its significance today. However one has to concede they are an important factor of vote-bank politics predominant in India at the moment.

Religiously speaking, it has no relevance, though it can be used as a benchmark to see how one is performing spiritually.

For example, being sad and unhappy, can be considered as tamasic or a shudra trait.

Being happy and living in the moment, can be considered as a sattvic or a brahminical trait.

Next if you still know or practise such differentiation amongst fellow humans then you need to change your own understanding as only tat will change your perception about the way you think about the subject.

The practice of such differentiation is the mark of an unconscious mind, not established in mindfulness.

I respect the wisdom of your saying.

I do not believe in differentiation, and hence the reason why I put down this thread,
to see whether the Shudra caste born, are also apt and capable enough to learn the vedas, without being discriminated. Indeed many are doing so.

:namaste

 

[zenzero]

Friend Ravi,

Finally understand that since the question was there in your sub-consciousness mind it has come up and only by not raising such irrelevant issue will we help eradicate the existing caste feeling in India and only by such pro activeness of non-discrimination in our activity will the thoughts on caste lines ever cross anyone's mind and only ten will politicians find other ways to divide.
For your information the Indian society is slowly moving from caste based to financial base or income levels though religion still remains which again is our own mind set issue.

Love & rgds

 

[Ravi500]

Friend Ravi,

Finally understand that since the question was there in your sub-consciousness mind it has come up and only by not raising such irrelevant issue will we help eradicate the existing caste feeling in India and only by such pro activeness of non-discrimination in our activity will the thoughts on caste lines ever cross anyone's mind and only ten will politicians find other ways to divide.

The question actually did not rise up from my subconsious mind, though I am aware of the discrimination faced by Dalits in some quarters with a casteist mindset, and have put them over here due to my ideals of humane behaviour . This discrimination is what has spawned reactionary movements in India.

The question arose, during a discussion in the thread....

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/hinduism-dir/161105-what-makes-hindu-hindu-version-2-a-4.html

For your information the Indian society is slowly moving from caste based to financial base or income levels though religion still remains which again is our own mind set issue.

Indian society is definitely doing so, however due to deep set traditional modes of thought process, we are unfortunately still stuck in caste-based and religion-based vote bank politics.

However, I am hopeful that positive change may come.

:namaste

 

[Aupmanyav]

And he had every right to say so, considering that the smritis had not been changed or updated.

You have repeated it very often. Please be informed that there is the necessary correction in Smriti (Vishweshwara Smriti, written by my grandfather and published in 1947). I would have serialized it in the Hindu forum but members objected to it. The purpose of serialization was to show that Hinduism is not a stagnant religion and that it makes necessary changes when required.

 

[Ravi500]

You have repeated it very often.

I hope I did.

Please be informed that there is the necessary correction in Smriti (Vishweshwara Smriti, written by my grandfather and published in 1947). I would have serialized it in the Hindu forum but members objected to it. The purpose of serialization was to show that Hinduism is not a stagnant religion and that it makes necessary changes when required.

I , unfortunately , am not aware of Vishweshwara Smriti, or your grandfather, though I am sure he was a fine gentleman like you.

I do not know the reason for the forum members objection to your grandfather's book.

The book is fine, but we had also developed the constitution which confers equality, liberty and fraternity of all, which is a smriti in itself.

The smritis after all, are law-bodies created from time to time, with new laws and regulations designed for existing conditions and situations.

 

[Aupmanyav]

For example, being sad and unhappy, can be considered as tamasic or a shudra trait.

Being happy and living in the moment, can be considered as a sattvic or a brahminical trait.

Do you mean that shudras are always sad and brahmins always happy? Like Zenzero said, forget caste, it has no relevance today. If someone rakes it up, file an FIR. The person will see stars in the day. And finally, vote Modi (he is a shudra. Let him be the first Shudra Prime Minister of India). He is the panacea for all ills of India today.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Ravi,

The question actually did not rise up from my subconsious mind, though I am aware of the discrimination faced by Dalits in some quarters with a casteist mindset, and have put them over here due to my ideals of humane behaviour . This discrimination is what has spawned reactionary movements in India.

Thank you for having consciously put up such a question. Fine you have some responses.
What could be of importance is that we should hence forth be conscious to ignore any issues/matters of such nature as giving importance even slightly kicks up dust and dust again takes a long time to settle as you know.

However, I am hopeful that positive change may come.

CHANGE is the only thing which is PERMANENT and the direction depends on the way we wish to and for that you have a lot of social responsibility.

Love & rgds

 

[Ravi500]

Friend Ravi,

Thank you for having consciously put up such a question. Fine you have some responses.

Thanks, pal.

What could be of importance is that we should hence forth be conscious to ignore any issues/matters of such nature as giving importance even slightly kicks up dust and dust again takes a long time to settle as you know.

And is this indeed the wise path !

To ignore discriminatory attitudes !! Is this what Buddhism and Hinduism has taught you .

I have recounted the tale over here, of how an untouchable child in rural India was allowed to be gored by a bull, as some nut case shouted out to people who tried to rescue the child from the bull, that he was an untouchable, and hence should not be touched.

Needless to say , the child was gored by the bull and killed.

We talk a lot about baby Krishna and sing bhajans and kirtans about Him, and when Krishna came in the form of an untouchable child , no one was keen on rescuing him, as they were afraid of being impure and losing their caste !

I would state that ignoring such discriminatory attitudes, and talking about religion, compassion and God at the same time, is hypocrisy of the highest order.

CHANGE is the only thing which is PERMANENT and the direction depends on the way we wish to and for that you have a lot of social responsibility.

The direction does not depend on the way we wish to, or our personal fancies, but on the path of Truth and Dharma, which must be walked upon, even if it is a lonely one filled with thorns .

One must be wise enough by foresight to understand the path of change, and follow this direction, or else we will be forced by nature to follow this path.

 

[Tyaga]

Pranam everyone,


This may be irrelevant to the topic,but, can anyone who know Samskrtam translate Manusmriti verses 10.63-65 for me?I came across these verses on a certain blog which says Manusmriti has mention of upgrading castes.

Thanks!

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Pranam everyone,


This may be irrelevant to the topic,but, can anyone who know Samskrtam translate Manusmriti verses 10.63-65 for me?I came across these verses on a certain blog which says Manusmriti has mention of upgrading castes.

Thanks!

Growing to exceed a brAhmaNa is not the same actually being a brAhmaNa by birth. Therefore, that verse does not go against a birth-based varNAshrama system; saying that someone can attain the same shreyastvaM as someone from another class is not the same as saying that he is from the other class. I never said, nor would I ever think, that a shUdra is innately inferior to a brAhmaNa. However, I do believe in the concept of svadharma: if it is not the duty of a shUdra to recite the veda-s, then why do so? I'm not against a shUdra taking initiation, but I feel that it goes against the entire concept of niShkAmakarmayogam.

This is not at all evidence for any birth-based system. Lol...

The ones of good karma will be born as one with brahmanical tendencies , kshatriya tendencies or vaishya tendencies, again as per varna or one's aptitude or inclination.

The one's of bad conduct or bad karma will be born as one with the tendencies of a shudra... denoting one of great tamas , pain and attachment to sensory pleasure.

Are you even reading what you're saying? Yes, one's jAti and varNa are based on karma, but the karma of the past life, not that of the present, since you are born before you actually do anything. If the above quote was not supporting a birth based system, then I presume that a hog or a dog (they are also mentioned in that verse, after all) could also become a brAhmaNa in their life-time? Stop being silly.

The founders of these institutions are sages who has millions of followers all over India and the world.

To assess such sagely figures in such a disparaging manner denotes lack of proper intellectual understanding ,perhaps mainly for reasons that you were not born and brought up in India, but in pakistan where a well-established Hindu culture does not exist.

Before you accuse me of engaging in gurunindA, you should first realize that I don't consider neo-Hindus to be lesser than regular Hindus, I just consider them to be non-traditional (you can interpret that however you like). How then, am I belittling or degrading anyone? Also, for a person who is so staunchly against birth-based varNa, you seem to be pretty hung up over the place where I was born. Is that not a bit hypocritical?