Can the universe create itself when it does‘t exist?

[paarsurrey]

This is what I can’t grasp with these nothingness theory fanatics. How do you get existence according to a science fetish.

Now, what is this science fetish, please? I have never heard of it,please?

Regards

 

[George-ananda]

What do you mean by the term 'magic'? What I see is physical laws. And I see no violations in those laws.

One definition of magic can be action outside the known physical laws like the existence of the universe. Things happening without physical cause can be called magic. The example I gave was the universe coming into being by a bang being a creative thought-form of God/Brahman.

The very existence of the universe is magic even to an atheist.

 

[paarsurrey]

.. nothing never existed all at once. Thinking things exist within how we understand physics and godlessness could have resulted in this? Thinking the Big Bang mass that atheists rationalize as truth has better odds than a designer pushing the beginning is absurd.

"Big Bang"

Big Bang is not the authored by the Atheism people. They have no hand in it. Do they claim it, please? Right, please?

Regards

 

[Koldo]

i don’t doubt magic-like aspects to reality.

So when you say that someone is flirting with magic, you don't mean it as a criticism towards the belief he is upholding but rather that he is being inconsistent with also holding the belief that magic doesn't exist?

 

[Polymath257]

One definition of magic can be action outside the known physical laws like the existence of the universe. Things happening without physical cause can be called magic. The example I gave was the universe coming into being by a bang being a creative thought-form of God/Brahman.

The very existence of the universe is magic even to an atheist.

But I don't say that the universe 'came into being'. That is a time-based description. But if you take all of space and all of time together, the whole does NOT 'come into existence. It simply exists.

Also, a great number of physical things happen 'without a cause'. In fact, most quantum level events are 'uncaused' in any reasonable sense. But to call them magic would be a serious abuse of the language.

 

[ChristineM]

Sorry, one believes in magic, I don't. And magic is not the topic of this thread. Right, please?

Regards

Scripture says god created everything from nothing. The hypothesis i presented says the universe could have been caused by nothing. You accept one and deny the other. The only possible reason is your belief god did it. If nature cannot do it but god can then that indicates magic. Right, please?

 

[George-ananda]

So when you say that someone is flirting with magic, you don't mean it as a criticism towards the belief he is upholding but rather that he is being inconsistent with also holding the belief that magic doesn't exist?

That's correct.

 

[Koldo]

Please define the natural word "magic", one's own understanding not from a lexicon, please.

Regards

A process ( or it's result ) that can achieve physical consequences without being accounted, even in principle, by physical principles and laws.
It is akin to the term 'supernatural'.

 

[Koldo]

That's correct.

Fair enough.

 

[paarsurrey]

Because God made no claim.
Lots of people about making claims for God but no God. Just others like you and me. Failable and prone to mistakes.

Some person decided to create a story about creation to tell for entertainment late at night around the campfire. Someone else decided the story should be included in the Torah. Where is God in all of this? Did God take pen in hand to make this claim?

You choose to believe the story of some unknown human author is true. There is nothing other than your belief to support this truth.

"Because God made no claim."

G-d has claimed it. Should I quote from the truthful Quran. Else, one could oneself read it and find it. There is no harm in getting to know the truthful religious knowledge. It is easy and beneficial, I understand.No compulsion, however. Right, please?

Regards

 

[Polymath257]

"Because God made no claim."

G-d has claimed it. Should I quote from the truthful Quran. Else, one could oneself read it and find it. There is no harm in getting to know the truthful religious knowledge. It is easy and beneficial, I understand.No compulsion, however. Right, please?

Regards

You realize there are many here that don't hold the Quran to be truthful, right?

 

[George-ananda]

But I don't say that the universe 'came into being'. That is a time-based description. But if you take all of space and all of time together, the whole does NOT 'come into existence. It simply exists.

At some point you are accepting 'non-physically caused' things as existing. You are at least as I originally said 'flirting with magical beliefs'.

 

[Polymath257]

At some point you are accepting 'non-physically caused' as existing. You are at least as I originally said 'flirting with magical beliefs'.

I disagree that is any sort of flirting at all. There is no 'cause' because there is no 'becoming'.

The universe simply exists. To ask why is to ask for laws that explain why this is true. But those laws would be about and operating only within the universe.

So, the basic question is ultimately: why is there something rather than nothing?

To that, there is no answer.

 

[paarsurrey]

If you mean can a compact singularity begin to expand into the universe we know today on its own via a natural process, there's absolutely no evidence to suggest that that it could not.

I understand,nature and all natural processes are created by G-d, science does not claim that it created them. Right, please?

Regards

 

[George-ananda]

I disagree that is any sort of flirting at all. There is no 'cause' because there is no 'becoming'.

The universe simply exists. To ask why is to ask for laws that explain why this is true. But those laws would be about and operating only within the universe.

So, the basic question is ultimately: why is there something rather than nothing?

To that, there is no answer.

Well, like a lot of debates it comes down to how words are being used (like magic). It sometimes gets forgotten that even to an atheist our existence itself is a mystery.

 

[Polymath257]

Well, like a lot of debates it comes down to how words are being used (like magic). It sometimes gets forgotten that even to an atheist our existence itself is a mystery.

And it is sometimes forgotten that introducing deities doesn't resolve that mystery.

 

[ManSinha]

G-d has claimed it. Should I quote from the truthful Quran

What is your proof other than purely circumstantial - that any god had anything to do with the Qu'ran? What is your proof that "Allah" exists? There is none whatsoever - not in the way the Qu'ran describes it.

I have seen the common ones

Why did Muhammad at age 40 suddenly start getting these revelations? (people change careers mid life all the time and there is no awareness in the Qu'ran of the eastern faiths - making the Qu'ran a periodic book whose time has passed)
The Qu'ran has beautiful verses unmatched anywhere else (droppings of a large mammal IMO - read the Vedas or the Gita or the writings of Kabir - they are better than the gobbledegook in your book IMO)
The Qu'ran says it was authored by god via the angel Jibril (circular reasoning)

There are obvious man made mistakes like Mirian - sister of Aaron being confused with the mother of Jesus
Confusion of Dhul Qarnayn - first thought to be Alexander - then changed to Cyrus when it was found that Alexander was a polytheist - and the mention of him having lived 700 years and built a wall to keep Gog and Magog out - something that has never been found -

Reverence for Adam as a Nabi when he did not exist by all scientific accounts

So do not even start down that road - it maybe something from god for muslims - your quotes from the Qu'ran may mean something to you - to those of us whom you call Kafirs - it means less than a rat's behind

Next?

 

[paarsurrey]

I disagree that is any sort of flirting at all. There is no 'cause' because there is no 'becoming'.

The universe simply exists. To ask why is to ask for laws that explain why this is true. But those laws would be about and operating only within the universe.

So, the basic question is ultimately: why is there something rather than nothing?

To that, there is no answer.

"The universe simply exists"

I understand from the truthful religious knowledge that Universe cannot exist on its own but because G-d helps it to exist for the purpose He created it, else, it cannot exist. And science has no ruling on it. Right, please?

Regards

 

[Nakosis]

"Because God made no claim."

G-d has claimed it. Should I quote from the truthful Quran. Else, one could oneself read it and find it. There is no harm in getting to know the truthful religious knowledge. It is easy and beneficial, I understand.No compulsion, however. Right, please?

Regards

When did God become a man so he could write the Quran?

I thought the Quran was the words of Mohamad written down by other men. Did God become Mohamad?

 

[Revoltingest]

Can the universe create itself when it does‘t exist?

I understand it cannot. Right, please?

Regards
___________
With thanks to friend @PruePhillip post #244

I don't like the word "create". It suggests intention.
If particles can appear spontaneously without us knowing why,
then there's no reason to say that an entire universe can't do
the same.