Can the US afford socialized medicine?

[Watchmen]

So here is what scientists at the Institute of Medicine of the National Academies had to say in 2004:

"Lack of health insurance causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States. Although America leads the world in spending on health care, it is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have coverage."
​

An enormous amount of data links lack of insurance to lack of access to healthcare to poor health in the U.S. Even when you control for other factors, lack of insurance/access is correlated with poor health outcomes.

Just the other day I spoke with a woman with cystic fibrosis who volunteers for a legal hotline for health insurance. She said just recently a 9-year-old's private insurance wouldn't cover a liver transplant, and the law requires 4 weeks of waiting before you can get on public insurance. She died waiting for the coverage to kick in. Conservatives say no one is allowed to die in a hospital in America because they can't afford treatment. They are living in a fantasy world.

The woman told me this kind of thing happens all the time, but it's very difficult to organize because people who are sick and dying, or bereaved, have a hard time taking political action.

Anyway, a LOT more relevant, scientific information is available from the non-partisan Kaiser foundation:
http://www.kff.org/uninsured/upload/7451-05.pdf

The evidence seems overwhelming to me.

Thank you for the additional information. I'll certainly take a look. I really appreciate this over repetitive conclusory statements.

I'll see if I can find information on diet. I suspect that is an even greater influence on the categories in the OP than access to healthcare.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Thank you for the additional information. I'll certainly take a look. I really appreciate this over repetitive conclusory statements.

I'll see if I can find information on diet. I suspect that is an even greater influence on the categories in the OP than access to healthcare.

I'm sure diet and exercise are big factors. Then again, diet and exercise might improve if people had regular check-ups or early warnings about blood pressure and so on. And diet and exercise might not explain the high rate of medical bankruptcy or high premiums. The biggest health costs by a significant margin are end-of-life care and care for chronic disorders like hemophilia -- not exactly diet and exercise per se.

At the end of the day there are many countries in the world and they are all different. Each one is an experiment in public policy. Despite the enormous differences between France, Taiwan, Botswana, and the U.S., there is a clear trend that affordable public insurance is cheaper and healthier.

 

[Magic Man]

Just because my views do not agree with yours do not mean they are wrong. Last I checked you were not my dictator.

I always love this response. No, just because they disagree with mine doesn't mean they're wrong. The fact that they're misinformed and have a false perception of the situation means they're wrong.

 

[Magic Man]

What you say might be true or it might not. Again, conclusions with no correlations. Even if we go to a cheaper system that does not mean we'll get better results than we do now. All those other factors will play a part.

Let me try this again. All of these other countries get better results for cheaper. Whether that's just because of their healthcare systems, or it has to do with other factors is irrelevant. Model our system after one or more of their systems (including anything that goes along with their system, like education) and we should be able to get the same results.

As Spinkles said, there are dozens of countries that are vastly different in every way, and yet they all have some kind of universal healthcare, and they all get results as good or better than us. Yes, we need to take our differences with Canada or Japan into account when instituting something like this, but it's still pretty obvious that it's the way to go.

 

[Autodidact]

Proven in other countries mball. One shoe fits all right?

Other countries have secure borders and do not hand visa's out like candy.

Countries like Western Europe, inundated with immigrants from Pakistan and other Muslim countries?

Other countries do not have half of their citizens paying zero in income taxes.

Wealthy countries like Thailand and India?

Other countries have citizens with a better education and a thing called gainful employment.

Countries like Mexico and Brazil?

All of these countries have universal health care; we do not.

In other words, other countries are in it all together. They have a shared sacrifice for the greater good.

Here in America, too many folks are not carrying the water. They vote to let the other guy pay for something. Socialized medicine in this country would be something different all together. It would not be shared sacrifice for the greater good.

It would be health care distribution from the worthy to the not so worthy.

People in America want something for nothing, not shared sacrifice like other countries that have sucessful health care programs.

They don't abuse their program because it would cost THEM more money.

Not so in the good ol U.S.A.

People rip off the system because they have not paid a dime into it.

Ah, so that's why you hate America. You think people in Hong Kong, Colombia and Germany are better than Americans. I don't share your contempt for my fellow Americans. That would explain why you would rather the country go down the tubes than implement universal health care. Because that's wehre it's going if we don't do something about it.

 

[Autodidact]

Here is the thing, everyone assumes that the United States Government could run a health care system like other countries do with the same results. I believe they give our government a little too much credit.

Look at all the fraud and abuse with medicare.
Look at the postal service.
The VA does not impress me.

I believe our government has grown way too big as it is.

I want less government, not more.

I understand. And it's well worth it to you for the country to spend its wealth on health insurance companies, in order to accomplish that goal. It's expensive to have a smaller government, gosh darn it, but it's worth it!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Here is the thing. The topic of the thread is, "Can the US afford socialized medicine?".

Seeing how we are trillions of dollars in debt, the answer is no.

I may need a new car. They are having a great end of year sale and prices are reduced. That still does not mean I CAN AFFORD IT !

You can say I need the car.

You could even call it a necessity. :yes:

The sale could even save me money, but that does not mean I could afford it.

Running with the analogy...

The fuel efficiency on my old minivan has been getting worse over the years, and it's getting to the age where I know some significant repair bills are on the horizon. I'm just about at the point where if I were to get something newer and smaller, the savings in fuel and repair costs would more than outweigh the car payments.

 

[Autodidact]

For one thing, we are bigger.

1. Why does that matter? Some countries with universal care:
China, India, Australia.

Nope! People do not want to pay for others folks health care even if it is cheaper. See that is it in a nut shell. It may be cheaper per capita, but some folks would have to PAY EVEN MORE than they do now FOR LESS! Exactly! It does not save EVERYONE money now does it? The straw man is that EVERYONE will get better health care FOR LESS. You keep leaving out the part where some Americans will pay A GREAT DEAL MORE for an inferior health care plan.

You ignore the facts. The facts are you are not getting health care reform :no:

No, even those people could pay a little more for supplemental policies, but would still pay less than they do now. As usual, you're factually incorrect. This may explain why your policy choices are so bad.

Seems to me there's only one person in this thread ignoring the facts, Rick.

 

[Autodidact]

mball1297, please help slay my ignorance on this subject.

What part of the proposed Health Care Bill or any Socialized Medical Plan will
deter those who would try to take advantage of it? Has it become "Politicaly
Incorrect" to enforce our Laws against Fraud?

I'm not being faceitious, I just don't understand.

Well it's not like going to the doctor is a lot of fun. What kind of fraud are you worried about?

 

[Autodidact]

I think if the fire or police come to your home, they should send you a bill. The money could pay back the tax payer.

Now just stop for a moment and think. Can you think of any reason why I might NOT want to discourage my neighbors from calling the fire department? Why in fact it might be in my interest for them to call them?

 

[enchanted_one1975]

I always love this response. No, just because they disagree with mine doesn't mean they're wrong. The fact that they're misinformed and have a false perception of the situation means they're wrong.

My views are not misinformed, nor do I have a false perception of the situation. You are just upset and being a crybaby because I will not conform to your ridiculous ways.

 

[Magic Man]

My views are not misinformed, nor do I have a false perception of the situation. You are just upset and being a crybaby because I will not conform to your ridiculous ways.

Thanks for the ad hominem, but no. If you agree with Rick here, then you're misinformed, probably intentionally.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Thanks for the ad hominem, but no. If you agree with Rick here, then you're misinformed, probably intentionally.

Spoken like a true dictator. It does not matter what the people want, YOU WILL HAVE SOCIALISED MEDICINE AND YOU WILL LIKE IT! :sad:

 

[Magic Man]

Spoken like a true dictator. It does not matter what the people want, YOU WILL HAVE SOCIALISED MEDICINE AND YOU WILL LIKE IT! :sad:

Rick, you should do stand-up. This is just precious.

 

[enchanted_one1975]

Rick, you should do stand-up. This is just precious.

mball1297, you really have issues. Give it up. We are never going to agree with your views. Unless, of course, you open your eyes and start to see how the world really turns. In that case you will be taking on our views. It will be an enlightening experience though.

 

[T-Dawg]

My views are not misinformed, nor do I have a false perception of the situation. You are just upset and being a crybaby because I will not conform to your ridiculous ways.

Hah. Your views ARE misinformed, as we've all explained at least a few dozen times by now (seriously, this is like what, the 20th thread on healthcare? And you conservatives always say the same things each time!). When are you going to learn that it's YOUR views that are ridiculous? Nice ad hominem, by the way.

 

[enchanted_one1975]

...And you conservatives always say the same things each time!)...

When we have strong, simple, and to the point facts we don't need to keep changing our story like the handout-hungry democrats. The truth is self explanatory.

 

[T-Dawg]

When we have strong, simple, and to the point facts we don't need to keep changing our story like the handout-hungry democrats. The truth is self explanatory.

You have FACTS? :biglaugh:

In all the threds on healthcare I've slogged through, the conservatives almost never posted facts, and when they did, they were quickly debunked. You conservatives don't have ANY facts (at least when it comes to healthcare reform), much less strong, simple, to the point ones.

And handout-hungry democrats... :biglaugh:
(And no, we don't keep changing our story. We keep presenting you with the same facts, and you charge at them with the lies we already debunked in the last healthcare thread. That's what I meant when I said that you conservatives always say the same things.)

You're so full of lies and propaganda, I can't tell if you're one of the dispensers of the lies or one of the receivers who actually believes them...

Oh yes, the truth is self-explanatory. Our side has all the statistics, common sense, AND moral superiority (because who in their right mind wants innocent people to die when they can do something about it?). Yours has a few annecdotal stories at best.

 

[Magic Man]

mball1297, you really have issues.

You should really stop with the ad hominems.

Give it up. We are never going to agree with your views.

Oh, I already know that. That doesn't mean I won't come on and tell you how wrong you are, when you make ridiculous claims, though.

Unless, of course, you open your eyes and start to see how the world really turns. In that case you will be taking on our views. It will be an enlightening experience though.

I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning. Get back to me when you understand reality.

 

[Magic Man]

When we have strong, simple, and to the point facts we don't need to keep changing our story like the handout-hungry democrats. The truth is self explanatory.

Can you tell us these strong, simple and to-the-point facts? I seem to have missed them.