Can the US afford socialized medicine?

[Autodidact]

Spoken like a true dictator. It does not matter what the people want, YOU WILL HAVE SOCIALISED MEDICINE AND YOU WILL LIKE IT! :sad:

Once again, your facts are the opposite of reality.

Americans overwhelmingly support substantial changes to the health care system and are strongly behind one of the most contentious proposals Congress is considering, a government-run insurance plan to compete with private insurers, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News poll.



The poll found that most Americans would be willing to pay higher taxes so everyone could have health insurance and that they said the government could do a better job of holding down health-care costs than the private sector.

A vast majority of people in the United States voice support for a universal health care system, according to a poll by Opinion Research Corporation released by CNN. 64 per cent of respondents think the government should provide a national health insurance program for all citizens, even if it leads to higher taxes.

Do you favor or oppose, "Having a national health plan in which all Americans would get their insurance through an expanded, universal form of Medicare-for all?"
Favor 58%, Oppose 38%, NA/DK 3%

"When given a choice of the current system or one "like Medicare that is run by the government and financed by taxpayers," voters overwhelmingly chose the latter. A solid majority (59%) say they would prefer a national health insurance program that covers everyone, over the current system of private insurance offered to most through their emloyer."

14. "Which comes closest to your view?
34% - The United States should continue the current health insurance system in which most people get their health insurance from private employers, but some people have no insurance
65% - The United States should adopt a universal health insurance program in which everyone is covered under a program like Medicare that is run by the government and financed by taxpayers
2% - Refused / Not Answered"

So what's actually going on here in reality is that it does not matter what the people want, you will have corporatized health care and YOU WILL LIKE IT! Or just go ahead and die, as you prefer.

 

[Yerda]

We are never going to agree with your views.

Is there no evidence that could convince you?

 

[JMorris]

conservatives are anti-facts for a good reason. facts are opposite to the mythic world view they want to believe in. luckily for them, facts dont matter nearly as much as who can shout the loudest.

 

[Falvlun]

Is anyone else getting really annoyed with Republicans and conservative talk-heads claiming that "America has utterly rejected healthcare reform and government-run healthcare". Excuse me? Since when has half (or even slightly above half) of the population equalled all of America?

Autodidact posted quotes from the Opinion Research Poll showing that the majority of Americans actually do support a comprehensive health-care reform, that would include a government run program.

Rasmussen currently shows 41% for and 56% opposed to the health care reform plan currently being discussed in Congress. 56%, while certainly a majority, hardly equals America, and does show that a substantial portion of the population does support this bill. It also doesn't take into account those who support a government run plan/ comprehensive reform, but are unhappy with the wimpiness displayed by the current bill.

Anyway. Point of rant: Please, please, please, conservatives! Stop saying that America has rejected healthcare reform! And please, please, please liberals! Call the conservatives out on it when they ignore and marginalized the other half of the population!

 

[Autodidact]

Hey, I'm a big proponent of health care reform, specifically, universal health care, and I oppose they current proposal. Unfortunately, it looks like all we're going to get. My point is that most of the opposition to the current plan is coming from people who want real reform, not people who oppose reform.

 

[Valjean]

I always thought the Republicans were opposed to higher taxes and more government spending.

Both individual and government (tax) expenditures for healthcare are higher here in the US than elsewhere. It seems reasonable, then, that if we went with some non-profit, universal coverage system like other developed countries have, the government would spend less and our taxes would go down.
Why do Republicans not see this? [rhetorical question, response not needed]

 

[Mr Spinkles]

It's interesting that so many Americans dismiss the wisdom gained through experience in all the other countries of the world. It doesn't matter what has been proven to work, and what has been proven to not work, over and over again in countless diverse countries across the globe. It's as if they see the world consisting of two parts -- the U.S., and "other countries". "Other countries" is small and perfectly homogeneous. In contrast, the U.S. is enormous and diverse -- it is the rest of the universe, apart from that strange little corner known as "other countries". Just because something happens to work or be true in one, specific, simple little example -- "other countries" -- that does not mean it will work in the rest of the Universe -- America.

 

[KatNotKathy]

It's interesting that so many Americans dismiss the wisdom gained through experience in all the other countries of the world. It doesn't matter what has been proven to work, and what has been proven to not work, over and over again in countless diverse countries across the globe. It's as if they see the world consisting of two parts -- the U.S., and "other countries". "Other countries" is small and perfectly homogeneous. In contrast, the U.S. is enormous and diverse -- it is the rest of the universe, apart from that strange little corner known as "other countries". Just because something happens to work or be true in one, specific, simple little example -- "other countries" -- that does not mean it will work in the rest of the Universe -- America.

No, you see, America is special because every other country is super homogeneous while America is uniquely diverse. This means that UHC is impossible here.

No really, I have encountered this argument on RF.

 

[Magic Man]

I always thought the Republicans were opposed to higher taxes and more government spending.

Yeah, the problem is that the only thing they're more opposed to than higher taxes and more government spending is socialism. I can see why, too. I mean, that **** will destroy our country and probably bring on Armageddon.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

In my few years here on RF, I don't think I've ever seen the term ad hominem thrown around so many times in one thread.

Nope! People do not want to pay for others folks health care even if it is cheaper.

I wouldn't mind paying extra taxes so my fellow citizens can have health insurance. I don't see any reason to have any objections to it. Sure some abuse the system, but many don't.

I think if the fire or police come to your home, they should send you a bill. The money could pay back the tax payer.

Thank you for suggesting that should my house catch on fire, I'll just have to let it burn to the ground because I can't afford any extra bills. Or call 911 when my crazy neighbor (who has at least two or three guns) starts acting very crazy and delusional. Seriously, this guy is so crazy, the cops have been to his house so many times all you have to do is give them his name, and they send the same two state troopers and one county sheriff, and eventually an ambulance, who have dealt with him in all past incidents. So I guess by your own logic, next time who goes off the deep, I'll just ignore it and hope he doesn't harm me or himself.

You have FACTS? :biglaugh:
---
And handout-hungry democrats... :biglaugh:

I wouldn't be so quick to laugh it up. Republicans have very skewed and flawed views and opinions, but that does not mean the Democrats are perfect. I honestly believe that most Democrats would make better philosophers than politicians. They tend to talk alot, about some good stuff, and talk, and talk some more, but they get stuff done at about the speed of a turtle. Now Republicans OTOH, they get stuff done quickly, but when it's something like the Patriot Act, the hastiness is not good.
Democrats are also known for poor handling of foreign affairs, scandals, lies, drug use, and every other problem the public and about half the media is quick to point the finger at Republicans for. Or if it's a Republican in fault, then they can just pretend the politician is Democrat.

 

[Troublemane]

I agree we need to do something. But theres a difference between Japan and England and the rest, and the USA. We have more people for one. And two, we are starting from a totally different model than they are. How do we change the privately held hospitals/medical firms, etc into publicly held and controlled ones? Do we authorize the government to seize them?

Do we pass a law which says, in ten years all private medical companies will be outlawed, and will be purchased by the government? Or do we instead create a socialized medical system, like the VA hospitals, open to anyone and have it operate alongside the current system?

Its easy to get up on a soap box and shout "we need xyz!"...but how to fix it? thats the question...

 

[KatNotKathy]

I agree we need to do something. But theres a difference between Japan and England and the rest, and the USA. We have more people for one. And two, we are starting from a totally different model than they are. How do we change the privately held hospitals/medical firms, etc into publicly held and controlled ones? Do we authorize the government to seize them?

That would be an efficient way to do it.

Do we pass a law which says, in ten years all private medical companies will be outlawed, and will be purchased by the government? Or do we instead create a socialized medical system, like the VA hospitals, open to anyone and have it operate alongside the current system?

Either way, private companies will die off, the only difference is time. I'd be satisfied with either.

Its easy to get up on a soap box and shout "we need xyz!"...but how to fix it? thats the question...

It's really not that hard. People need to stop making excuses about how America is so special and different that it wouldn't work here. We could literally just copy one of the many successful models out there and have something better than what we have now, even if it isn't optimized.

 

[Magic Man]

I agree we need to do something. But theres a difference between Japan and England and the rest, and the USA. We have more people for one.

Brazil has 191 million people. It's not quite as populated as us, but it's close enough. I really don't understand why the size matters that much.

And two, we are starting from a totally different model than they are. How do we change the privately held hospitals/medical firms, etc into publicly held and controlled ones? Do we authorize the government to seize them?

They don't have to be public. There are plenty of models to use that wouldn't make hospitals public. In some cases, nothing has to be public; it's just a question of how things are paid for.

Do we pass a law which says, in ten years all private medical companies will be outlawed, and will be purchased by the government? Or do we instead create a socialized medical system, like the VA hospitals, open to anyone and have it operate alongside the current system?

Either the latter, or we don't have any publicly-owned ones at all.

Its easy to get up on a soap box and shout "we need xyz!"...but how to fix it? thats the question...

It's a pretty simple fix. We look at all of those other countries, see what works well for them and what could be applied to us, and we implement those things.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I agree we need to do something. But theres a difference between Japan and England and the rest, and the USA. We have more people for one. And two, we are starting from a totally different model than they are. How do we change the privately held hospitals/medical firms, etc into publicly held and controlled ones? Do we authorize the government to seize them?

Why would you want to?

The critical element of universal health care is putting the health insurance in government hands. Beyond that, deciding whether healthcare delivery should be public as well is, IMO, a separate matter. Some countries have said "yes" and some have said "no". In the case of the US, I think it'd be silly to dismantle your infrastructure of private hospitals and clinics. I'm not saying they're perfect, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Autodidact]

Brazil has 191 million people. It's not quite as populated as us, but it's close enough. I really don't understand why the size matters that much.

One word. China.

 

[Magic Man]

One word. China.

Yeah, I just wasn't sure how good their results are there. As it turns out Brazil and China's results are not very good, but they also each only pay roughly 1/18 of what we do per capita, and 1/10 of what European countries do.

Japan is a great example, though, as shown in the OP. They have 127 million people, and they get great results. I'd say for our purposes, 127 million is close enough to 300 million.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Who said "handout-hungry Democrats"?

It's not a handout. I'm willing to pay taxes along with everyone else for a public insurance plan. That's not a handout any more than a sewage system, bridges, the fire department, schools, libraries, parks, etc.

If anyone is handout-hungry it is the Republicans who support subsidies for private insurance companies and tax cuts for the wealthy.

 

[Smoke]

Who said "handout-hungry Democrats"?

I don't know, but I take issue with the idea that anybody who favors universal healthcare is either handout-hungry or a Democrat. I'm not a Democrat, thank the gods, and I already have decent health insurance.

 

[JMorris]

That would be an efficient way to do it.

agreed, id like to see health care nationalized

Either way, private companies will die off, the only difference is time. I'd be satisfied with either.

agreed again

It's really not that hard. People need to stop making excuses about how America is so special and different that it wouldn't work here. We could literally just copy one of the many successful models out there and have something better than what we have now, even if it isn't optimized.

you win frubals

 

[Troublemane]

One word. China.

Sure, lets model ourselves after a country with little regard for human rights, where health and safety and property rights are meaningless, where the government dictates to its people their rights to reproduce. Sounds fantastic.