Can the US afford socialized medicine?

[Magic Man]

Many people choose to go without health care and do pay their medical expenses out of pocket.

I guess it's a good thing for them that they don't have any major problems, huh? I'm also guessing they have enough money to pay for whatever they need.

A health care savings account would help out in this situation.

The only difference between that and insurance is that you could use that for something else at some point. The problem is that you could save up, say, $4,000 in that account and then come down with cancer, and have to spend tens of thousands of dollars over the course of a couple years. That's why it's called insurance, because it insures that you'll be taken care of when you need to be (even though that's not how it currently works many times).

Another solution would be to have the government apply their tax return to pay the medical bill. That would reduce the burden on society.

Huh?

The thing is, if a person has been responsible and paid their medical expenses in the past, why would we want to force them to buy something they don't want?

Ideally we don't. Ideally we want to cover everyone through taxes.

 

[Magic Man]

Not everyone is hand to mouth.

Not everyone, but have you seen the median income in the U.S.? It's just over $50,000. That means that half of the people in the country are making less than that.

Many people have demonstrated their ability to be personally responsible for their medical care.

Well, yeah, but many of them have also demonstrated that they haven't had to pay for a lot of medical costs because they don't have many problems.

So in you opinion, no one should be exempt from forced medical care?

It's not forced medical care. It's paying taxes to help cover everyone, instead of paying premiums to an insurance company.

Why should I have to pay for what I consider to be an inferior medical policy that would restrict my medical options?

Because it wouldn't be inferior and it wouldn't restrict your options.

People in America should be able to say, "no thanks" to Obama care. Especially when he promised us we could during the debates.

People in America should stop using the term "Obamacare". What people should say "yes" to is a form of universal coverage similar to Canada's or Japan's or Germany's. Of course, politicians are saying "no, thanks" to that because it's too big a leap. So we have to settle for what's in this bill.

You're more than welcome to say "no" to the health insurance bill, but if it passes in Congress, then more people will have said "yes" than "no".

 

[Mr Cheese]

Why should I have to pay for what I consider to be an inferior medical policy that would restrict my medical options?
.

Do some research

Overall you will find US medicine is mediocre at best.... sure some fields are excellent, but overall it is mediocre. Add to this the fact that it is pretty much the most expensive healthcare on the planet (is there a more expensive country?)..and you have a sytem that is just plain up a creek without a paddle.

Again, there is a reason why USA is nowhere near the top for life expectancy globally...and for the riches and resources this country has......a lacklustre healthcare system, really is something that needs to be changed.....
What will essentially killing its own populace through lack of coverage or crippling them with financial debts...... health care is also preventing competitiveness...as a good right wing neo con capitalist.... you should appreaciate that healthcare in this country is actually preventing us making more of that lovely thing...MONEY...

because labor is cheaper elsewhere....

 

[Troublemane]

Do some research

Overall you will find US medicine is mediocre at best.... sure some fields are excellent, but overall it is mediocre. Add to this the fact that it is pretty much the most expensive healthcare on the planet (is there a more expensive country?)..and you have a sytem that is just plain up a creek without a paddle.

Again, there is a reason why USA is nowhere near the top for life expectancy globally...and for the riches and resources this country has......a lacklustre healthcare system, really is something that needs to be changed.....
What will essentially killing its own populace through lack of coverage or crippling them with financial debts...... health care is also preventing competitiveness...as a good right wing neo con capitalist.... you should appreaciate that healthcare in this country is actually preventing us making more of that lovely thing...MONEY...

because labor is cheaper elsewhere....

So...we are going to wind up paying to keep Aunt Martha alive for another 10 years, because she can't afford that operation otherwise. So she can live another decade, and continue to suck up money from the teat of Big Government, while the rest of us scratch out a meager existence just trying to get by.

You guys are right, what was I thinking. Just by virtue of being born in this great nation, and by the very fact that I spent decades working my way up to where I am now, (making a paltry 40k per year as an electrician), the fact that I have saved my money, paid down my debts, volunteered spare time working for friends and family, and occasional charity work---never asking for anything free....because I have been blessed by the fruits of my own labor, then I OWE it to those less fortunate to give them money, so that they can have something more than "just mediocre" healthcare. So they can have BETTER healthcare than I can get.

That just makes me mad. It makes me burn with anger that people who cannot or will not work for a living, can have better healthcare than I can. Because of the fact that I work, means that I am going to have to go without a raise for the next ten or 20 years, because all my raises will be swallowed up by trying to keep pace with rising healthcare costs.

And that the decisions about what will happen with the money I make is being determined by people in congress who never have to worry about it. It really, really makes it difficult to maintain a calm demeanor when entering a debate with people who adopt such an arrogant attitude, claiming that it is "society's" duty to provide the best healthcare for the least of its citizens, when it is the average income earner who is shouldering the burden of it all--not the wealthy.

Now, if thats what you all want to see, a world populated by nothing but the ultra-rich and a vast nation of service workers, that is fine. Thats exactly what you are gonna get....a vast majority of people all barely getting by, and the few who are worth millions, running everything. Say bye-bye to the middle class, because we won't be able to afford to live here anymore.:help:

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That just makes me mad. It makes me burn with anger that people who cannot or will not work for a living, can have better healthcare than I can. Because of the fact that I work, means that I am going to have to go without a raise for the next ten or 20 years, because all my raises will be swallowed up by trying to keep pace with rising healthcare costs.

The sad thing is, if my fiance and I got married, quit our jobs, and had a baby, we would be living better than we are now. That is one aspect of welfare that does need to be addressed, but it doesn't mean it should be abolished because many people do just need alittle extra help from time to time. Food stamps during medical leave, some extra money to help with the cost of diapers and formula, and insurance to those who don't have access to it. I firmly believe that if you are on welfare, you must at least show you are looking for work if you are not working, or be on disabilities. And if you refuse to work, there are plenty of roads that have litter that need to be cleaned up, and Goodwill and Salvation Army always take volunteers. I even believe we need a permanently disabilities, and a temporary disabilities for those who can work, but they need a desk job or whatever so that they can work.

Now, if thats what you all want to see, a world populated by nothing but the ultra-rich and a vast nation of service workers, that is fine. Thats exactly what you are gonna get....a vast majority of people all barely getting by, and the few who are worth millions, running everything. Say bye-bye to the middle class, because we won't be able to afford to live here anymore.:help:

Well, the solution is simple, tax the rich who can afford it, lay off the middle-class so they still pay taxes but aren't taxed to death, and provide aid to the poor so they can become middle class. Those who won't work, just leave them in the gutters. And no, it does not take billions of dollars to create jobs. They can pay their fair share of taxes to help out their fellow citizens without missing a dime. And not all the super rich create jobs, so they can really afford it.

 

[Autodidact]

So...we are going to wind up paying to keep Aunt Martha alive for another 10 years, because she can't afford that operation otherwise. So she can live another decade, and continue to suck up money from the teat of Big Government, while the rest of us scratch out a meager existence just trying to get by.

You guys are right, what was I thinking. Just by virtue of being born in this great nation, and by the very fact that I spent decades working my way up to where I am now, (making a paltry 40k per year as an electrician), the fact that I have saved my money, paid down my debts, volunteered spare time working for friends and family, and occasional charity work---never asking for anything free....because I have been blessed by the fruits of my own labor, then I OWE it to those less fortunate to give them money, so that they can have something more than "just mediocre" healthcare. So they can have BETTER healthcare than I can get.

That just makes me mad. It makes me burn with anger that people who cannot or will not work for a living, can have better healthcare than I can. Because of the fact that I work, means that I am going to have to go without a raise for the next ten or 20 years, because all my raises will be swallowed up by trying to keep pace with rising healthcare costs.

And that the decisions about what will happen with the money I make is being determined by people in congress who never have to worry about it. It really, really makes it difficult to maintain a calm demeanor when entering a debate with people who adopt such an arrogant attitude, claiming that it is "society's" duty to provide the best healthcare for the least of its citizens, when it is the average income earner who is shouldering the burden of it all--not the wealthy.

Now, if thats what you all want to see, a world populated by nothing but the ultra-rich and a vast nation of service workers, that is fine. Thats exactly what you are gonna get....a vast majority of people all barely getting by, and the few who are worth millions, running everything. Say bye-bye to the middle class, because we won't be able to afford to live here anymore.:help:

I think you need to brush up on some of the facts; you seem to be seriously misinformed. Like one of the reasons we need this reform is to prevent the cost of health care from continuing to skyrocket, as it has been doing without this reform. Like, if you're making $40K per year, your taxes are at their lowest in 50 years, and went down this year. LIke right now you're paying for retarded exorbitant health care for poor people, instead of reasonable health care. But don't let the facts get in the way of your anger. Oh, btw, did you know that this reform will prevent your insurance company from screwing you over if you have coverage?

 

[dawny0826]

Can someone who supports socialized medicine explain to me how this will be paid for? Am I correct in assuming that the middle and upper classes will be ultimately responsible for footing the bill for this?

 

[Peacewise]

I am thoroughly amazed that the question isn't.

Can america afford to not have a socialized health care system? or perhaps...

Why is it that america can spend trillions of dollars on war, and sweet FA on socialized health?

The answer is obvious, read Chomsky, he'll give ya a reason why, and the reasons the 'why' exists too.

 

[Troublemane]

I think you need to brush up on some of the facts; you seem to be seriously misinformed. Like one of the reasons we need this reform is to prevent the cost of health care from continuing to skyrocket, as it has been doing without this reform. Like, if you're making $40K per year, your taxes are at their lowest in 50 years, and went down this year. LIke right now you're paying for retarded exorbitant health care for poor people, instead of reasonable health care. But don't let the facts get in the way of your anger. Oh, btw, did you know that this reform will prevent your insurance company from screwing you over if you have coverage?

I only wish I was misinformed. Or able to just live in the dream world liberals seem to. The Congress spouts off how this healthcare bill will actually cut the deficit, cut spending and cut healthcare costs.....HOW? Lemme show you....

Step (1) By forcing everyone to buy insurance. Those who cannot afford it will be subsidized, (exactly as it is in Massachussetts right now...the system there is broken, by the way). Insurance companies are going to raise their premiums to compensate for taking on pre-existing conditions. Or they will simply close their doors.

Step(2) By slashing Medcare in half,....supposedly, this will help pay for this healthcare bill, as they think the majority of people on medicare can actually afford health insurance. Or if they can't, they can be subsidized, like the rest who can't afford it (which will be just about everyone, in a few years...)

Step (3) By slashing public funding to public hospitals who take in a huge amount of non-insured patients, usually illegal immigrants, most of whom come in through the emergency room. They think if they cut that funding by half they will be able to more than pay for the bill....because supposedly these previously un-insured persons will now be covered by the new bill?....WRONG. the majority of those treated are illegal immigrants. How in the hell are they going to become insured? The bill makes no provisions for them, all it does is slash funding for the public hospitals....You thought slashing funding for education was bad, wait till you see the effect of this.

Step (4) this is the real gem...By forcing people who have no insurance to pay a fine. This is their solution. A fine. So, they argue, people will be motivated to go get insurance. Ah, but the inurance companies have changed their methods now, that they are not allowed to 'screw you over', so instead of rejecting someone with a pre-existing condition, they simply charge someone 10 times what they would have before. Or, they simply say "Sorry, we are not taking new clients from that ZIP code." Or, "Sorry we only deal with Company XYZ, we handle no other policies..." The insurance companies will find a loophole. Thats what they do. So for the rest of people who cannot get insurance, who are not employed, there is....

Step(5) They get rolled over into MEDICAID. Which, over half of all doctors turn down. Why? Because Medicaid only pays for about 50-60% of the cost of a procedure. But wait, you say, the government has already provided for that, in this bill. Any difference in reinbursement between Medicare and Medicaid will be paid for by the Federal Government (!!!!)...nevermind how is this going to make things any easier, or the fact that it will pile more red tape on top of an already bureaucratic mess [medicaid], it still will not give Doctors an incentive to take new patients who are using Medicaid as their sole insurance policy. Medicaid turns down procedures, and refuses payment, it makes its money back by going in to hospitals and handing them a thousand cases and demands they justify all of them. If they cannot, the hosital may have to pay all the money back...and there is no statute of limitations, the government can charge a hospital for a procedure they feel was unwarrented years after the fact. It means hospitals' costs for keeping records goes up per patient, if they don't, then they either go out of business or they STOP TAKING MEDICAID PATIENTS. It is that simple.

So.,.. how the freakin hell is this bill supposed to cut spending? Answer: it is not designed to. The people who keep on saying over and over, "Ah its the biggest tax cut in a decade", are liars. That is what they are, bold faced liars.:yes:

 

[Troublemane]

I am thoroughly amazed that the question isn't.

Can america afford to not have a socialized health care system? or perhaps...

Why is it that america can spend trillions of dollars on war, and sweet FA on socialized health?

The answer is obvious, read Chomsky, he'll give ya a reason why, and the reasons the 'why' exists too.

The reason why america sends trillions to haliburton and nothing on healthcare, is that money spent on war can be made back through seizing another country's assets. Its fine to inlfate the currency when you are building vast war debt, because you can send the bill overseas while lining the pockets of your constituents.

With socialized medicine, you help nobody but the poor. There is no profit in it.

If you need to know the truth, don't read Chomsky. Read the "report from iron mountain", it details how psychologically people are able to justify laying down their liberties/money/etc. for WAR, but for public works programs, meh..not so much.

 

[Peacewise]

To my line of reasoning helping the poor is a good work, it's worthwhile whilst war is not - no matter the economic value of the assets seized.

I don't hear about any people who work in charity complaining of health issues that soldiers complain of post-war. - strike 1 for war.

Economic growth is not the only concept/thing that has value. - strike 2 for 'war for profit"

War causes hatred. - strike 3, war is outta here.

just a bit of fun, I understand why the war economy of america is believed to be necessary, but I am hoping that such an august nation will grow out of that mentality.

I find it strange that you directed me to "report from iron mountain" a satirical report that it's author as declared a spoof, according to the wiki on it.

People do lay down their liberties and money and time for public programs, it's called volunteering and charity work, quite a big economy... not as big as the war economy I'll grant you, but to my thinking FAR more valuable.

 

[Comicaze247]

With socialized medicine, you help nobody but the poor. There is no profit in it.

This brings to mind "We are only as strong as our weakest link." In order to grow stronger as a country, we have to bring up our country, not just some people in our country. Sure, we want the cream of the crop to rise up above the rest, but that doesn't mean we can't help those below them improve themselves. One of the sad things is that poverty itself is a vicious cycle that is extremely difficult to get out of.

The lower class tend to be uneducated simply because they can't afford it. The lower class also tends to have more a lot unplanned pregnancies, and therefore a lot more children, which is very likely due to the lack of education.

lack of money = lower chance for education = lower education about safe sex = more children = more mouths to feed = need for more money = more hours needed to work = less time less time for exercise/sleep = higher chance of health complications = higher likelihood of needing medical attention = less money = more hours at work = less time caring for the family = higher chance of health complications = higher likelihood of needing medical attention = less money for adequate food/clothing = higher chance of health complications = higher likelihood of needing medical attention = less money = lower chance for education = etc.

I'm sure you get the idea.

If you need to know the truth, don't read Chomsky. Read the "report from iron mountain", it details how psychologically people are able to justify laying down their liberties/money/etc. for WAR, but for public works programs, meh..not so much.

That's because people (at least in this country) are naturally self-serving. It's human nature. If it doesn't benefit them in some way, they likely won't do it. But that's not a justification for allowing others to suffer. We've developed intellect and reason as a species, why can we not use them to rise above the base self-serving urges? We are already a nation of surplus. We're known for getting things that we really don't need. The upper class is getting almost everything they want, while other fellow human beings aren't even getting things that they need. If one can afford to help, why not?

I'm not saying we should let them ride our coat-tails. I'm just saying they could use a hand. A hand that's actually placed in reach and is actually intent on helping them up so that they can learn to walk on their own. Not everyone is born naturally intelligent, gifted, and driven enough to break out of the cycle. Some need a helping hand, but that hand would still have some requirements. Those who would receive the helping hand need to prove that they are actually trying to walk rather than be dragged.

 

[Troublemane]

It all boils down the abolishing the Federal Reserve System. They operate the IMF, keep third world countries in perpetual debt to the USA and developed nations, while keeping us (US) in continual inflation. Its a system designed for war.

But we learned it from our parent nation, the Brits. They excelled at it---divide and conquer. Take a country, split it in half, then make the two sides fight each other. Never resolve it, cuz that defeats the purpose. (Pakistan/India, Iran/Iraq, North/South Korea, North/South Vietnam)...its like crop rotation. When one conflict ends, move on to the next. Meanwhile bet on both sides, and force the loser to pay reparations in oil revenues.

Now if I was Haliburton, which would I choose....???

Yeah, we should just abolish the Fed. It be too tempting for others to try .

 

[Autodidact]

Can someone who supports socialized medicine explain to me how this will be paid for? Am I correct in assuming that the middle and upper classes will be ultimately responsible for footing the bill for this?

You want to know how we would pay for socialized medicine, or for the recent legislation, which has nothing to do with socialized medicine, unfortunately?

 

[Autodidact]

I only wish I was misinformed. Or able to just live in the dream world liberals seem to. The Congress spouts off how this healthcare bill will actually cut the deficit, cut spending and cut healthcare costs.....HOW? Lemme show you....

Step (1) By forcing everyone to buy insurance. Those who cannot afford it will be subsidized, (exactly as it is in Massachussetts right now...the system there is broken, by the way). Insurance companies are going to raise their premiums to compensate for taking on pre-existing conditions. Or they will simply close their doors.

Step(2) By slashing Medcare in half,....supposedly, this will help pay for this healthcare bill, as they think the majority of people on medicare can actually afford health insurance. Or if they can't, they can be subsidized, like the rest who can't afford it (which will be just about everyone, in a few years...)

Step (3) By slashing public funding to public hospitals who take in a huge amount of non-insured patients, usually illegal immigrants, most of whom come in through the emergency room. They think if they cut that funding by half they will be able to more than pay for the bill....because supposedly these previously un-insured persons will now be covered by the new bill?....WRONG. the majority of those treated are illegal immigrants. How in the hell are they going to become insured? The bill makes no provisions for them, all it does is slash funding for the public hospitals....You thought slashing funding for education was bad, wait till you see the effect of this.

Step (4) this is the real gem...By forcing people who have no insurance to pay a fine. This is their solution. A fine. So, they argue, people will be motivated to go get insurance. Ah, but the inurance companies have changed their methods now, that they are not allowed to 'screw you over', so instead of rejecting someone with a pre-existing condition, they simply charge someone 10 times what they would have before. Or, they simply say "Sorry, we are not taking new clients from that ZIP code." Or, "Sorry we only deal with Company XYZ, we handle no other policies..." The insurance companies will find a loophole. Thats what they do. So for the rest of people who cannot get insurance, who are not employed, there is....

Step(5) They get rolled over into MEDICAID. Which, over half of all doctors turn down. Why? Because Medicaid only pays for about 50-60% of the cost of a procedure. But wait, you say, the government has already provided for that, in this bill. Any difference in reinbursement between Medicare and Medicaid will be paid for by the Federal Government (!!!!)...nevermind how is this going to make things any easier, or the fact that it will pile more red tape on top of an already bureaucratic mess [medicaid], it still will not give Doctors an incentive to take new patients who are using Medicaid as their sole insurance policy. Medicaid turns down procedures, and refuses payment, it makes its money back by going in to hospitals and handing them a thousand cases and demands they justify all of them. If they cannot, the hosital may have to pay all the money back...and there is no statute of limitations, the government can charge a hospital for a procedure they feel was unwarrented years after the fact. It means hospitals' costs for keeping records goes up per patient, if they don't, then they either go out of business or they STOP TAKING MEDICAID PATIENTS. It is that simple.

So.,.. how the freakin hell is this bill supposed to cut spending? Answer: it is not designed to. The people who keep on saying over and over, "Ah its the biggest tax cut in a decade", are liars. That is what they are, bold faced liars.:yes:

How much did the cost of health care go up in the last year before reform?

 

[Troublemane]

According to what I read, last year 2.3 trillion, was spent last year, and accounted for about 16% the GDP.

 

[Peacewise]

What a great deal of people need to recognize is the truth that giving is more powerful than receiving, it's not a platitude to tell the children to give presents at birthdays and christmas and such - and then forget as adults when we enter the market place for work.

For me it's about recognizing that relationships and cooperation is more powerfully lasting and worthwhile than transactions and competition.

The value of a thing is not merely it's economic value, but includes its cultural value, its sentimental value, its environmental cost and value and so on - these things are not given $$ values, and these non-$ values are often superior or worth more than the economic value.

That wedding ring - it's value is far more than mere gold.
That last remaining photo of your loved dead grandma, it's worthless to frank smith in tasmania, but priceless to you.
The painting on the cave wall that is 50000 years old, it's a story of what humanity once was - and it's worth more than the resource in the ground under the cave.
These values are subjective and they fall by the wayside in accounting and economics and it is to the detriment of humans and humanity when they do.

And so on...
Likewise, the life and health of someone doesn't need an economical rationalisation ever, and most especially today when abundance is so evident in society.

Come on most of money is merely electronic numbers in bank accounts - it is a fiction, and so often people are fixated on that number that society as a whole is fixated on keeping that number high - and belittles the value of life and health compared to resources and information.

I think this objectification of economy needs more work, we need to start placing dollar values on culture, environment, life - if the accountants, CEO's, corporations and governments can put a value on Good will - then how about they start putting a value on all the other subjective concepts, ideals, values, people and things.

 

[Autodidact]

Interesting. And that's double what any other country on earth spends, per capita. Yet every other industrialized country on earth has some form of universal health care. Yet, unaccountably, you believe it will raise our cost to move in that direction. Why?

You're saying that the Congressional Budget Office is lying? On what do you base that?

 

[Magic Man]

I only wish I was misinformed. Or able to just live in the dream world liberals seem to. The Congress spouts off how this healthcare bill will actually cut the deficit, cut spending and cut healthcare costs.....HOW? Lemme show you....

Step (1) By forcing everyone to buy insurance. Those who cannot afford it will be subsidized, (exactly as it is in Massachussetts right now...the system there is broken, by the way). Insurance companies are going to raise their premiums to compensate for taking on pre-existing conditions. Or they will simply close their doors.

Step(2) By slashing Medcare in half,....supposedly, this will help pay for this healthcare bill, as they think the majority of people on medicare can actually afford health insurance. Or if they can't, they can be subsidized, like the rest who can't afford it (which will be just about everyone, in a few years...)

Step (3) By slashing public funding to public hospitals who take in a huge amount of non-insured patients, usually illegal immigrants, most of whom come in through the emergency room. They think if they cut that funding by half they will be able to more than pay for the bill....because supposedly these previously un-insured persons will now be covered by the new bill?....WRONG. the majority of those treated are illegal immigrants. How in the hell are they going to become insured? The bill makes no provisions for them, all it does is slash funding for the public hospitals....You thought slashing funding for education was bad, wait till you see the effect of this.

Step (4) this is the real gem...By forcing people who have no insurance to pay a fine. This is their solution. A fine. So, they argue, people will be motivated to go get insurance. Ah, but the inurance companies have changed their methods now, that they are not allowed to 'screw you over', so instead of rejecting someone with a pre-existing condition, they simply charge someone 10 times what they would have before. Or, they simply say "Sorry, we are not taking new clients from that ZIP code." Or, "Sorry we only deal with Company XYZ, we handle no other policies..." The insurance companies will find a loophole. Thats what they do. So for the rest of people who cannot get insurance, who are not employed, there is....

Step(5) They get rolled over into MEDICAID. Which, over half of all doctors turn down. Why? Because Medicaid only pays for about 50-60% of the cost of a procedure. But wait, you say, the government has already provided for that, in this bill. Any difference in reinbursement between Medicare and Medicaid will be paid for by the Federal Government (!!!!)...nevermind how is this going to make things any easier, or the fact that it will pile more red tape on top of an already bureaucratic mess [medicaid], it still will not give Doctors an incentive to take new patients who are using Medicaid as their sole insurance policy. Medicaid turns down procedures, and refuses payment, it makes its money back by going in to hospitals and handing them a thousand cases and demands they justify all of them. If they cannot, the hosital may have to pay all the money back...and there is no statute of limitations, the government can charge a hospital for a procedure they feel was unwarrented years after the fact. It means hospitals' costs for keeping records goes up per patient, if they don't, then they either go out of business or they STOP TAKING MEDICAID PATIENTS. It is that simple.

So.,.. how the freakin hell is this bill supposed to cut spending? Answer: it is not designed to. The people who keep on saying over and over, "Ah its the biggest tax cut in a decade", are liars. That is what they are, bold faced liars.:yes:

Hold up. One thing at a time. Either rail against socialized healthcare and keep to that topic, or rail against the healthcare bill that was passed and keep on that topic. The new law we have is not socialized healthcare.

This is a big pet peeve of mine about conservatives.

reasonable person - Universal healthcare is the way to go.
conservative - But this bill only raises the cost and it doesn't help this or that... reasonable person - Where did I mention the healthcare bill?

 

[Troublemane]

Interesting. And that's double what any other country on earth spends, per capita. Yet every other industrialized country on earth has some form of universal health care. Yet, unaccountably, you believe it will raise our cost to move in that direction. Why?

You're saying that the Congressional Budget Office is lying? On what do you base that?

I call em liars because they flat out said this bill will be a huge cut in the deficit. Then it turns out the US debt to GDP ratio will hit 63% this year, and if spending is not reigned in, will hit 90% in this decade. The bill cost 850 billion, and is only predicted to reduce the deficit, and then only regarding healthcare expenditures by the government. The fact is, the GDP is going to keep dropping in relation to our debt, and the only thing the gov will continue to do (if it continues down this line of creating healthcare entitlements), is go ever deeper into debt.

governments cannot create money. They can only seize it.

....those 2.3 trillion dollars going to healthcare, do you know how much of it is from the public sector?....and how much from private citizens?

How much was paid for by taxpayers, and how much by individuals and insurance companies?