Can the US afford socialized medicine?

[Reverend Rick]

Hey in case you missed it. Looks like the CBO was wrong, or they were lying. What a surprise.

Report: Health overhaul will increase tab - Health care reform- msnbc.com

Tell me about any program that did not exceed the projected budget when the Federal Government became involved.

All the Liberals kept repeating themselves over and over to me like I was too dumb to understand, "I've explained this to you before" was the mantra.

Or, "you just don't get it do you?".

I said it before and I'll say it again, IF IT SOUNDS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE, IT PROBABLY IS.

Insuring more people for less, quality of care improving with not one single additional doctor or nurse on staff, uh huh that makes sense. :no:

I love all this feel good pixie dust the Liberals have been pumping up our butts......

No business model I have ever heard of produces more with a 60% budget.

Just ask yourself, would you work harder and longer for 60% of your pay?

 

[dawny0826]

Everybody would be automatically covered just by being an American citizen. If your insurer provides private health insurance, you would get insurance through that provider. You could raise the money from any number of methods (e.g. VAT tax, income tax, etc.). Think of it as expanding medicare to all Americans.

I suppose my concern is...how can this possibly work if only about half of Ameria is paying taxes now? Will this translate to people like myself paying more for essentially less?

 

[Reverend Rick]

I suppose my concern is...how can this possibly work if only about half of Ameria is paying taxes now? Will this translate to people like myself paying more for essentially less?

It is another transfer of money from one group to another.

Young healthy people will pay more.
Older workers will pay less.
Retired folks will receive less services, (that 50 billion taken from medicare does not come without strings).

I believe most of us can count on paying around 10% of our income. For some, this will be a good deal, for others not so much.

I have heard rumors of a federal income tax in addition to our current taxes. The projected amount of the VAT tax, (value added tax) would be around another 10%.

So, a young healthy person who has not been to the doctor in over a year, could end up paying about 20% more of their income to the government than they did before.

A young person making 300 dollars a week could see another 60 dollars taken away from them.

Some of you young folks cannot remember what it was like to live under a Democrat for a President, basically they spend lots of money on things we need that we do not have the money to pay for. Then they raise taxes to pay for it all.

To be fair, Republicans spend too much money on other things that benefit them and do not raise taxes and increase the National debt.

One side taxes and spends while the other borrows and spends.

Both sides ignore the fact that the American people cannot afford for the government to spend money WE DO NOT HAVE.

 

[Magic Man]

I suppose my concern is...how can this possibly work if only about half of Ameria is paying taxes now? Will this translate to people like myself paying more for essentially less?

Ah, you were taken in by the whole "only half of Americans are paying taxes" thing. That's because half of Americans make less than $50,000, and a quarter of Americans make less than $20,000. It's the other half that has all the money, and so they'll be the ones to pay the taxes. Taxes still get paid, just by the people who can actually afford to pay them. Think of it like this: There is, let's say, $12 trillion being made every year by Americans. $1 trillion of that is made by 50% of the country, while the other 50% makes the other $11 trillion. So, if only that second 50% pays the taxes, that's all you need. If we got it to the point of that first 50% making $4 trillion out of 12, then part of that lower 50% would be paying taxes.

If we instituted a truly "socialized" system, depending on how much you make, you might save money considering you wouldn't have your health insurance premium anymore. That is, unless you're making a good salary, like over $100,000. If you make $30,000 and don't have kids or other dependents, you're not going to be the one paying for it.

 

[Magic Man]

I believe most of us can count on paying around 10% of our income. For some, this will be a good deal, for others not so much.

You might believe that, but that doesn't make it any less BS. If you make less than $50,000, you're paying in the neighborhood of 15% in federal taxes. That's not suddenly going to jump up 10%.

I have heard rumors of a federal income tax in addition to our current taxes. The projected amount of the VAT tax, (value added tax) would be around another 10%.

And amazingly you'll believe any rumor you hear, as long as it fits your biased view of things.

So, a young healthy person who has not been to the doctor in over a year, could end up paying about 20% more of their income to the government than they did before.

Yes, they could. I could also win the lottery, get struck by lightning twice and be eaten by a bear tomorrow. I'd say I have better odds of the my scenario happening.

A young person making 300 dollars a week could see another 60 dollars taken away from them.

Again, they could. Anything could happen. However, it's not going to happen. A person making $300 a week is only paying about 10% in federal taxes, assuming they are single and only take the standard deduction. They're not suddenly going to being paying 30%. The chances of them paying any more than they already are are astronomically low.

Hyperbole and fear don't make for a good argument, Rick.

 

[Peacewise]

Tell me about any program that did not exceed the projected budget when the Federal Government became involved.

All the Liberals kept repeating themselves over and over to me like I was too dumb to understand, "I've explained this to you before" was the mantra.

Or, "you just don't get it do you?".

I said it before and I'll say it again, IF IT SOUNDS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE, IT PROBABLY IS.

Insuring more people for less, quality of care improving with not one single additional doctor or nurse on staff, uh huh that makes sense. :no:

I love all this feel good pixie dust the Liberals have been pumping up our butts......

No business model I have ever heard of produces more with a 60% budget.

Just ask yourself, would you work harder and longer for 60% of your pay?

Less bureaucrats, less finance officers, less lawyers, less accountants, less policy makers, less chairmen, less vice presidents, less ceo's, less upper managers, , less middle management, less business managers, less business plans and less insurers and less paper pushers... to make room for

More doctors and nurses. => lower budget and more people cared for.

How to achieve this. lol.
Lower education fees in medicine, and higher education fees in business, law, accounting etc... is one step.. the small one.

The big one is to recognise that people are more important than correctness, that relationships are more powerful than transactions, that caring is more important than money...
good luck with that.

 

[enchanted_one1975]

...that caring is more important than money...
good luck with that.

The money has to exist before you can care or not care about it. Our country is currently spending money that does not exist. This hurts everyone in our country and is actually having an effect on the global economy. You cannot buy what you do not have a means to pay for.

 

[Peacewise]

The money has to exist before you can care or not care about it. Our country is currently spending money that does not exist. This hurts everyone in our country and is actually having an effect on the global economy. You cannot buy what you do not have a means to pay for.

that's a nice point and I totally agree with you. Why is it then that debt is a standard form of finance, that is.
A business will borrow money for it's start up, then work for 10 years to repay that debt and finally enter profit.
Or a person and their home, or tv, or credit card, people do have the money to pay for these things despite going into debt for them - the things society wants are material, and they want them NOW. Why is it that debt is not entered for matters of health, and culture? - because these things do not suit a consumer society, they do not seem important enough.

How much has america spent on wars that it has not won, on wars that have made greater and more powerful enemies of those it fought?

No america is rich, but to my small thinking it seems preoccupied with war, rather than health, and hence my belief is that usa is spending it's wealth in the incorrect fashion, and hence seems poorer than it is.

What would a trillion dollars have done for medicine in america? Instead of Iraq and afghan?

As my original post indicated, too often the money is spent in the wrong places...
so it seems to me.

 

[enchanted_one1975]

There's an old saying, "No use crying over spilled milk!" What has been spent has been spent. Spending more will not justify what may or may not have been a good decision in the past. That would be like maxing out one credit card because you are upset that you can't afford the payment on another. Doesn't really make sense, does it?

 

[Peacewise]

I agree, but will they cut up the credit card, or just keep spending it on the crap that is warfare.

Another war will come, there is no doubt of this, tis the way of the usa for a long time now, and then will we be sitting again thinking, no use crying over spilled milk, it's spent on war, it's not there in the budget - yet again, and ever onwards.

I think there should be crying over the spilled milk - only then will it be realised that the milk was too precious to waste on that war, and hence hopefully, too precious to spend on any future wars of aggression.

 

[Reverend Rick]

There's an old saying, "No use crying over spilled milk!" What has been spent has been spent. Spending more will not justify what may or may not have been a good decision in the past. That would be like maxing out one credit card because you are upset that you can't afford the payment on another. Doesn't really make sense, does it?

Using their logic, If I over drafted my checking account buying beer, that should entitle them to over draft my checking account yet again for something they want too.

Maybe I was drunk when I wrote a cold check, whats their excuse?

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

We need a balanced budget amendment and then decide what we want and how we are going to pay for it.

I don't believe you can Fix the budget without fixing the cost of medicine. My wife negotiates union contracts for a living. She said that two of her employers have came up to her and said that costs have went up by over 30% last year. Medicare is a very large expense for our government.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I have always thought that a good first step would be to let everyone buy into Medicare and the Government make 3% profit on the deal. This would help the deficit and keep the insurance companies under control.

I would like the single payer system the best but I don't believe the american people will go for it.

 

[Falvlun]

There's an old saying, "No use crying over spilled milk!" What has been spent has been spent. Spending more will not justify what may or may not have been a good decision in the past. That would be like maxing out one credit card because you are upset that you can't afford the payment on another. Doesn't really make sense, does it?

By the same flip of the coin, shouldn't that mean you shouldn't be crying about the health care bill anymore? Afterall, the milk's been spilt!

If we don't cry about the spending we think is wasteful (war for me, healthcare for you), then how do we ever expect them to stop spending on those wasteful things? Peacewise hit it on the nose: if we don't make a stink over the money spent on war, then the money will keep on being spent on wars.

I also think it's kinda funny how we can always seem to come up with the money for the wars, but when we try to bring healthcare to the people, its all "America's broke!"

 

[Reverend Rick]

You might believe that, but that doesn't make it any less BS. If you make less than $50,000, you're paying in the neighborhood of 15% in federal taxes. That's not suddenly going to jump up 10%.

Matt, Matt, Matt, I was talking about what Dawny might have to spend on her health insurance policy.

If she had no health insurance before, she will be spending something she was not before.

And amazingly you'll believe any rumor you hear, as long as it fits your biased view of things.

Are you saying I am incorrect that congress is considering a VAT tax? I really wonder how you will feel about paying the same rate of federal sales tax that I do in the future?

Yes, they could. I could also win the lottery, get struck by lightning twice and be eaten by a bear tomorrow. I'd say I have better odds of the my scenario happening.

That is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard you say Matt. :sorry1:

Again, they could. Anything could happen. However, it's not going to happen. A person making $300 a week is only paying about 10% in federal taxes, assuming they are single and only take the standard deduction. They're not suddenly going to being paying 30%. The chances of them paying any more than they already are are astronomically low.

They might have to pay something for health insurance. That is really going to hurt some folks because they might choose to pay the penalty because they can't afford the premiums. I know they will get help, but if they have a pre-existing condition their rates could be very high and even a percentage of that amount could be substantial.

Just because the insurance company can't deny you does not translate into they won't charge you more than everyone else if you have a pre-existing condition.:yes:

Hyperbole and fear don't make for a good argument, Rick.

The health care bill will put an undue burden on the working poor. They have to pay something right? The government is not going to give it to them for free right?

Why would someone who cannot afford to pay income tax have the money for a health care policy?

How are the poor going to afford to pay a 10% VAT tax AND a health care policy premium Matt?

 

[Falvlun]

Just because the insurance company can't deny you does not translate into they won't charge you more than everyone else if you have a pre-existing condition.:yes:

Exactly. I've been worried about that one too.

 

[Reverend Rick]

And amazingly you'll believe any rumor you hear, as long as it fits your biased view of things.





Hyperbole and fear don't make for a good argument, Rick.

[youtube]T7R9wYLmzKI[/youtube]
YouTube - Pelosi Open To Raising Taxes On Everything (VAT) Including The Poor

 

[Reverend Rick]

[youtube]TREC6UGQgiA[/youtube]
YouTube - Top White House Advisor Suggests Imposing VAT Tax

 

[enchanted_one1975]

By the same flip of the coin, shouldn't that mean you shouldn't be crying about the health care bill anymore? Afterall, the milk's been spilt!

Nope...since the part that hurts me hasn't taken effect yet there is still time to keep the milk from spilling. What we have now are plans to spill the milk.

 

[Falvlun]

Nope...since the part that hurts me hasn't taken effect yet there is still time to keep the milk from spilling. What we have now are plans to spill the milk.

Ok, so does that means that once it does, you will no longer be able to cry about it?

Also, if you want to get technical, we are still in the process of spilling the milk for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars as well.