Can we change our mind about what we believe?

[muhammad_isa]

..You both believe that the Bible is wrong... yes, wrong... when it claims that Abraham took Isaac. So, what is that story? Hmmm? Maybe fiction?

As @Trailblazer has just said, why find the errors, and conclude therefore, that G-d does
not exist or people have made it all up etc. ?

It's your choice .. but it's not a logical one .. it's a lazy one, imo.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Don't lie. Don't steal. Don't murder. Yeah, good advice. But did it come from God? Then what do non-Jews do with the commandment about the Sabbath? And did God really want the people that did anything considered "work" stoned to death? But there is still the advice that God gave to Joshua, to go kill every man, woman and child in Jericho.

I'm much more comfortable thinking that an ancient warrior people made that up. They demonized their enemies and made their God the only true God. But I do believe the effect of religion is to get people to do what's good and right... for those people in that culture at that time. An invisible God watching and punishing the people for not obeying is a real good way to get most of the people obeying and following the laws. I just think this invisible God could very easily have been made up.

Yes CG we all have difficulties with knowing the essence of an invisible God we can’t directly communicate with because basically our brains would get fried as if the sun descended to the earth. Instead God CHOSE to create a special pre existent Soul with the ability to withstand direct communication and relay His Guidance to us through His Divine Spokesman. So analysing and researching the Lives and Teachings of the Manifestations is really the ONLY way we can find a trace of God. Some do investigate with a pure heart and see clearly Their Spiritual greatness, others take time but eventually agree and others spend a lifetime in doubt. I think it’s clear to see God if we look at many of the Manifestations but by trying to prove God exists by proving His absence or presence or any human method such as mathematics and such will never lead us to His Essence. So if we reject the Manifestations basically there is no other way to find God and we become distracted wanderers all our lives.

Now using your argument that God may have been made up. I believe that most of the maybe 4 billion religious people made up a God which is why we aren’t all on the same page. If we all found God we would all be united but we are not. The real God, the Manifestations tell us is unknowable so any physical or mental image of a god is NOT God but our own imaginations.

So let us say for example the mineral kingdom gets together and has a discussion. One mineral says that it heard that there is another kingdom above it which it cannot confirm or deny. Most say it’s a fallacy but some believe. Now because the vegetable kingdom does exist then the lower kingdom is wrong. So can we in the human kingdom say with any certainty that there also is not another kingdom above ours which we cannot perceive but which the Manifestations assure us do exist?

As you stated very wisely, if we do follow God’s laws then it’s better for us and all these wars would not exist. But to follow God we must follow His Manifestations as They have the correct medicine the the ills of our age.

 

[CG Didymus]

As @Trailblazer has just said, why find the errors, and conclude therefore, that G-d does
not exist or people have made it all up etc. ?

It's your choice .. but it's not a logical one .. it's a lazy one, imo.

Hmmm? Again... as if Muslims and Baha'is take the Bible stories literally. And Baha'is and Muslims find errors in how some Jews and Christians interpret it. You and TB sure like to call other people "not logical" or "illogical" and now "lazy"? It's not that I haven't listened to and studied the way Christians and Baha'is interpret the Bible.

And yet again, TB has called the stories fiction also. And I agree with her. So, how about you... Which story is not fiction... That Mary gave birth to Jesus in a stable in Bethlehem or, under a date palm tree? Of course, there is the creation and flood story in Genesis... True? Or fictional? I guess you'd have to say "true", because it would be "not logical" to believe it is fictional? Please.

And then there is "errors"... The Bible says that Abraham took Isaac to be sacrificed... An error? Since Islam and Baha'is say it was Ishmael, somethings wrong with the Bible version.... Or somethings wrong with the way Islam and the Baha'i Faith believes it happened.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes CG we all have difficulties with knowing the essence of an invisible God we can’t directly communicate with because basically our brains would get fried as if the sun descended to the earth. Instead God CHOSE to create a special pre existent Soul with the ability to withstand direct communication and relay His Guidance to us through His Divine Spokesman. So analysing and researching the Lives and Teachings of the Manifestations is really the ONLY way we can find a trace of God. Some do investigate with a pure heart and see clearly Their Spiritual greatness, others take time but eventually agree and others spend a lifetime in doubt. I think it’s clear to see God if we look at many of the Manifestations but by trying to prove God exists by proving His absence or presence or any human method such as mathematics and such will never lead us to His Essence. So if we reject the Manifestations basically there is no other way to find God and we become distracted wanderers all our lives.

Now using your argument that God may have been made up. I believe that most of the maybe 4 billion religious people made up a God which is why we aren’t all on the same page. If we all found God we would all be united but we are not. The real God, the Manifestations tell us is unknowable so any physical or mental image of a god is NOT God but our own imaginations.

So let us say for example the mineral kingdom gets together and has a discussion. One mineral says that it heard that there is another kingdom above it which it cannot confirm or deny. Most say it’s a fallacy but some believe. Now because the vegetable kingdom does exist then the lower kingdom is wrong. So can we in the human kingdom say with any certainty that there also is not another kingdom above ours which we cannot perceive but which the Manifestations assure us do exist?

As you stated very wisely, if we do follow God’s laws then it’s better for us and all these wars would not exist. But to follow God we must follow His Manifestations as They have the correct medicine the the ills of our age.

All I can say is there's been lots of "gods" and lots of "prophets", and some of them were false. The religions of many ancient cultures were made up by the people. They all had stories of god/men and prophets. They all had their gods. But most of us these days believe that those religions were based on man-made myths.

Some of the stories in the Bible sound very much the same as some of those ancient myths. Now if you wanted to be consistent, you'd have to say that the religions of China, Greece, Egypt and of Meso-America were true, originally, but became corrupted over time. That's the way that Baha'is treat Judaism and Christianity.

But then there's Hinduism and Buddhism. What, if any, Scriptures do Baha'is accept as even close to authentic in either of those religions? I'm fine with them being fictional, religious myth. Or... Baha'is are stuck trying to make sense of them. Like how do Baha'is explain the many Gods of Hinduism? Baha'is are forced to come up with "symbolic" interpretations.

For me, I just say that I think those people, at that time, came up with beliefs and Gods to explain the world around them and to explain what happens to people after they die.

 

[joelr]

I merely pointed out that many religions do not deal with the Divine and revelation.
..but the most populous ones i.e. Abrahamic do, yes.

And non-Abrahamic. Krishna comes to Prince Arjuna, the cargo Cults shaman got revelations from a deity named John Navy. Divine knowledge has to "come" to some person in a religion, this is nothing new.

I am suggesting that as the revelation was revealed in a harsh environment i.e. the Arabian desert,
it's style might also be considered "harsh" by those in relative comfort.

Yes and the God seems to hate other religions and non-believers. an environment would not effect the disposition of a supreme deity?
He would say what words he has to say. To say someone is going to have a horrible doom for freedom of religion is hate.

I will not comment on a "flood" of quotes etc.

I will, these are hateful comments directed at people who hold different beliefs. Written by people who probably hated other religions for a reason. A God would probably not have this hate.

Allah will burn you forever in the fire that he has prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24

Your opinion .. can't be categorically proved either way .. yet suffering is very real to us
in the here and now.

Right but it isn't 50/50? You need evidence. Mythology doesn't hold true things, it's made up fiction set in real places. You should read God: An Anatomy by Fransesca Strakopolou, Hebrew Bible scholar. She really puts the first 5 books in perspective and shows how much of the stories, speech, events, are all drawn from mythic motives that were used in all gods at that time. It is 100% all mythology.

So then around 167 BC, the Hellenistic Greeks occupy Israel and the NT suddenly has this new stuff about souls and heaven. Clearly borrowing, once again from another culture. Cultures who are not considered to have real holy books, they are myth. Because Israel borrowed them they don't become more real.
I just watched a story about a MMA coach who grew up Jehova's Witness and when he left home at 18 as a non-believer his family and friends refused to even look at him. He never recovered and 20 years later died from the emotional trauma. People get attached to beliefs that they are told and will not allow themselves to see reality. Even if it means losing children.

Just because Islam used some NT beliefs doesn't make them any more real than when they were made up in Greek religions.

see above..

Nothing there demonstrates hell or makes it a possibility. I posted this recently, it's scholarship on what the Hebrews took from Persia regarding hell and Satan. It was a myth in Persia and still is now.

"
The central ideas of heaven and a fiery hell appear to come directly from the Israelite contact with Iranian religion. Pre-exilic books are explicit in their notions the afterlife: there is none to speak of. The early Hebrew concept is that all of us are made from the dust and all of us return to the dust. There is a shadowy existence in Sheol, but the beings there are so insignificant that Yahweh does not know them. The evangelical writer John Pelt reminds us that “the inhabitants of Sheol are never called souls (nephesh).”4

Saosyant, a savior born from Zoroaster's seed, will come and the dead shall be resurrected, body and soul. As the final accounting is made, husband is set against wife and brother against brother as the righteous and the damned are pointed out by the divine judge Saosyant. Personal and individual immortality is offered to the righteous; and, as a final fire melts away the world and the damned, a kingdom of God is established for a thousand years.7 The word paradis is Persian in origin and the concept spread to all Near Eastern religions in that form. “Eden” not “Paradise” is mentioned in Genesis, and paradise as an abode of light does not appear in Jewish literature until late books such as Enoch and the Psalm of Solomon.



Satan as the adversary or Evil One does not appear in the pre-exilic Hebrew books. In Job, one of the very oldest books, Satan is one of the subordinate deities in God's pantheon. Here Satan is God's agent, and God gives him permission to persecute Job. The Zoroastrian Angra Mainyu, the Evil One, the eternal enemy of God, is the prototype for late Jewish and Christian ideas of Satan. One scholar claims that the Jews acquired their aversion to homosexuality, not present in pre-exilic times, to the Iranian definition of the devil as a Sodomite.8


In 1 Chron. 21:1 (a book with heavy Persian influences), the Hebrew word satan appears for the first time as a proper name without an article. Before the exile, Satan was not a separate entity per se, but a divine function performed by the Yahweh's subordinate deities (sons of God) or by Yahweh himself. For example, in Num. 22:22 Yahweh, in the guise of mal'ak Yahweh, is “a satan” for Balaam and his ***. The editorial switch from God inciting David to take a census in 2 Sam 24:1, and a separate evil entity with the name “Satan” doing the same deed in 1 Chron. 21:1 is the strongest evidence that there was a radical transformation in Jewish theology. Something must have caused this change, and religious syncretism with Persia is the probable cause. G. Von Rad calls it a “correction due to religious scruples” and further states that “this correction would hardly have been carried out in this way if the concept of Satan had not undergone a rather decisive transformation.”9


The theory of religious influence from Persia is based not only on the generation spent in exile but the 400 years following in which the resurrected nation of Israel lived under strong Persian dominion and influence. The chronicler made his crucial correction to 2 Sam. 24:1 about 400 B.C.E. Persian influence increases in the later Hebrew works like Daniel and especially the intertestamental books. Therefore Satan as a separate evil force in direct opposition to God most likely came from the explicit Zoroastrian belief in such an entity. This concept is not consistent with pre-exilic beliefs.


There is no question that the concept of a separate evil principle was fully developed in the Zoroastrian Gathas (ca. 1,000 B.C.E.). The principal demon, called Druj (the Lie), is mentioned 66 times in the Gathas. But the priestly Jews would also have been exposed to the full Avestan scripture in which Angra Mainyu is mentioned repeatedly. His most prominent symbol is the serpent, so along with the idea of the “Lie,” we have the prototype for the serpent/tempter, in the priestly writers' garden of Genesis.10 There is no evidence that the Jews in exile brought with them any idea of Satan as a separate evil principle.

In Zoroastrianism the supreme God, Ahura Mazda, gives all humans free-will so that they may choose between good and evil. As we have seen, the religion of Zoroaster may have been the first to discover ethical individualism. The first Hebrew prophet to speak unequivocally in terms of individual moral responsibility was Ezekiel, a prophet of the Babylonian exile. Up until that time Hebrew ethics had been guided by the idea of the corporate personality – that, e.g., the sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons (Ex. 20:1-2).

Ha! If you could find any evidence of ACTUAL change, you would have presented it.
Nobody has done it .. or CAN do it.

I guess you don't even read that stuff either. Of course there is change? First it shows the Quran did not come in 610-30 but was being worked on in 5 AD.
And YES IT HAS VARIATIONS????

"contains many variations from the standard text, and the sequence of its chapters corresponds to no known Quranic order. "

Some of it dates to the 5th century. This is EXACTLY what we would expect to find if an angel didn't really come down but this work was being developed over many decades. We found variations, we found they were earlier. That is dead on what likely happened and there is evidence.

I didn't present the variations because I do not care. I know it's 99.999% likely to be man-made like all other scripture. I already know that.
If you care about truth you will investigate from a non-bias scholarly source. Or, you just want to confirmation bias your beliefs into being true you can ignore it or find some apologetic making up lies. You have already shown to not be interested in truth, you will just tap dance and make things up.
I've posted the information like 5 times and you still say ridiculous stuff like "HA (???) no evidence of ACTUAL change.......) " Uh, yeah there is, hello, variations?

Your choice, what to believe and not..

Nope, not my choice. Evidence. I would like to believe aliens really crashed at Roswell, the evidence shows it's a hoax. I would like to believe in an afterlife. Total mythology.
Claims of angels and revelations, very fake. Claims of being a messenger, totally made up. Or they thought they were getting messages through their writing and were not quick enough to see that they were writing nothing any human couldn't write with available information.
They never wrote on single thing that was clearly beyond their time. Not one. Like you could fit about 95 suns between the sun and earth. You could fit about 25 million suns between the sun and the next closest sun. Or what are 10 digits at the 100 trillion decimal. We would jsut have confirmed that today.
But no, it's just the same morals, wisdom, Greek science, clearly written by people.
Also, again, this is supposed to be the Christian god and he didn't tell his people? He knew there would be 200 years of holy war crusades to free the holy land from Islamic control. But it's the same religion? So this God enjoys war? Ridiculous. He knows everything so you cannot use any crap freewill argument. The story fails at every turn.

 

[joelr]

I did explain it in the following posts.

They think that the more they KNOW about a religion the closer they will get to finding the truth about that religion, but what actually happens is that they completely lose sight of the tree (religion) because it gets lost in the forest of trees (details about a religion that don't really matter) ...
Trees, trees, trees everywhere.

Lot of problems here.

1) Now you are a mind reader. You suddenly know how, why, and to what degree I think and how it impacts my beliefs. Ridiculous.

2) You DID NOT explain why one would overlook serious issues like incorrect prophecies, poor writings, no supernatural abilities or knowledge, looks like plagarism, God or the supernatural has NEVER been demonstrated.

3) You did not explain what the heck this even means? I do understand the overall picture, his writings and message. It's a bunch of works clearly copied from the Quran and Bible, very little to zero knowledge of modern philosophers, which he should know, a lot of space filling with redundant worship language, no actual spiritual advice whatsoever outside of bland generalizations. At least Krishna was written by a group of authors who understood some philosophy on ethics, moral, dilemmas about duty, family, and so on.

4) Then you propose that horribly wrong prophecies, lack of science knowledge, and all the other issues don't matter????

YET, this is the reason you don't become a Mormon or a Jehova Witness or a Scientologist or go join Jesus in AU in his ministry. It's just your religion that should get a pass on everything for some "truth" that you cannot explain?

WHAT TRUTH? Yes Joseph Smith was also visited by an angel and revealed divine wisdom. Oh, his story is not believable? Because the details are silly? So I guess they matter after all? Huh? Special pleading.

5) Cult talk. This is classic cult manipulation. "Oh don't look at all the inconsistencies! See the big picture! See the TREES! Don't ask questions. Don't seek answers."
No thank you. How about you explain all this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


You think that the more you KNOW about a religion the closer you will get to finding the truth about that religion, but what actually happens is that you completely lose sight of the tree (religion) because it gets lost in the forest of trees (details about a religion that don't really matter) ...

Did you think saying it again would make it make any more sense? I'm sorry, it doesn't.

Maybe you think all that knowledge is going to get you closer to the Truth about God or the Baha'i Faith, but what happens is the exact opposite.
Knowledge can be a veil preventing recognition of Baha’u’llah because people who think they know everything are often haughty and vainglorious. Some of the most pure souls were uneducated. #900

No, too much knowledge causes you to lose sight of the truth about a religion since it leads to mental confusion rather than mental clarity.

Maybe you think studying all the facts about Joeseph smith and the golden plates and the Mormon Bible will get you closer to the truth.
But it's actually the exact opposite, you get lead away from Mormonism because, yes Smith was a con-man and yes the evidence is terrible, but if you can just use a bias and say "it's all true" you will believe it in your heart. Don't be haughty and vainglorious, don't look into facts and evidenece. Just join and believe and you will feel free and the presence of god also!

It's just as silly when you say the same about Mormonism.

This is cult talk. Any time someone tells you that knowledge makes you words that basically equal a DILETTANTE, they are trying to brainwash you. No true thing fears knowledge. No true movement fears breaking down aspects of the teachings and seeing if they match reality. Or looking for actual evidence that they are real, supernatural, never.
Something true will never be afraid of critical thinking and empirical thought.

I don't think that is your aim, I suspect you were taught to think like that. But you are making excuses for the religion, excuses as to why it makes bad prophecies, uninspired writings, mostly copied from older wisdom, nothing new, and especially ZERO evidence.


Now, pure souls? Pure souls were uneducated? Ok. I didn't say you needed an education to be a good person? What the flying heck does that have to do with Mormonism or Bahai being actually true???????????????



And no I do not think knowledge will get me closer to god because god is a fiction. Feel free to demonstrate evidence for god.
But the Bahai faith, yes. Once again, please explain how understanding all prophecies were insanely wrong isn't a clue?
Explain how lack of evidence isn't a clue? Or finding the writings to be mundane to be helpful?

And why is it not SO HYPOCRITICAL that you judge Mormonism, and all other religions the SAME WAY I JUDGE BAHAI, as made up. Yet when I do it to your religion you special plead over and over. Now you special plead that logic and evidenece - knowledge is a waste of time.

After you explain the big picture, maybe you can explain how you should go into a religion without knowledge?

Funny thing is, you probably joined after your own investigations. You just bought into it. But when I do it and don't buy it it's the wrong move. Tap-dancing, word salad, nonsense.


"Knowledge can be a veil preventing recognition of Baha’u’llah because people who think they know everything are often haughty and vainglorious."

Going back, who gave the links to :

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 179-183

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library​

A collection of transcriptions of table talks given by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá in ‘Akká between 1904 and 1906 in response to questions posed by Laura Dreyfus-Barney, an American Bahá’í resident in Paris, and first published in 1908. The new edition, extensively retranslated, was published in 2014.
www.bahai.org

Yup, you did. Who read them? Yup, I did. And now look what I get, because I used them to learn about the religion. let's look again - ""Knowledge can be a veil preventing recognition of Baha’u’llah because people who think they know everything are often haughty and vainglorious."


You didn't say that when you gave links and said "the evidence is here"? Odd? But now that I reviewed the evidence and found a ton of mistakes. Suddenly the goal post has been moved.
You give me the knowledge, when I use it and find it lacking and unconvincing, NOW those with knowledge are "
haughty and vainglorious."


Man, I am so tired of dishonest arguments.

 

[joelr]

Also, if one wants to know if the Baha'i Faith is true, they need to focus on the Baha'i Faith rather than going off in many different directions, studying and talking about other religions that really don't have anything to do with the Baha'i Faith.

For example, if one wants to know if the Baha'i Faith is true, it doesn't matter what the Mormons believe since that is irrelevant as to whether the Baha'i Faith is true.

Yeah that's why I studied -

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 179-183.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

A collection of transcriptions of table talks given by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá in ‘Akká between 1904 and 1906 in response to questions posed by Laura Dreyfus-Barney, an American Bahá’í resident in Paris, and first published in 1908. The new edition, extensively retranslated, was published in 2014.

www.bahai.org

Gary Matthews. The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

And I found his prophecies are all wrong. His philosophy doesn't exist. His writings are poor quality, redundant, flowery praise language, never really say anything and if they do it's re-hashed scripture.


He did no supernatural things or had no supernatural power or knowledge, something all revelation people have or at least their god does it for them to get things started.


He also is an offshoot of Judaism and Islam, Judaism is a complete mythology, has no evidence it's real and excellent evidence it's made up stories because in that time that is what people did. All the theology is borrowed and Yahweh is a Mesopotamian deity in looks, action, speech, activity, motivation and anything else.


Aquinas added Platonism which evolved Yahweh into an immaterial, beyond space and time and all-knowing. It's a patchwork of myth, heaven being the last and most ridiculous.

You now seem to be saying if scientology had a messenger we should not at all look into Scientology but just focus on the new messenger.


Sure, if you like being conned by a hoax you could do that.


whenever anyone tells you not to learn, run the other way. They are looking to get you int a cult.

Related to learning and knowledge, I just ran across these passages today:

“… the beloved of God have, in the days of the Manifestation of the Day Star of Truth, been exalted above, and made independent of, all human learning. Nay, from their hearts and the springs of their innate powers hath gushed out unceasingly the inmost essence of human learning and wisdom.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 263-264

That's funny, because he made 27 scientific prophecies and not only was he not "exaluted above", he was completely wrong.

Paul also tells people to not trust learning, use faith. Now here is Bahai saying Christainity is all wrong, scripture is corrupt and to get truth you have to switch religion. Huh, how's that faith working out now for Christians.
Your belief system is so full of contradictions, fallacies, confirmation bias, you cannot even keep track of which nonsense you are preaching today.
https://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-124.html.utf8?query=truth&action=highlight#gr4

“O Náṣir! The excellence of this Day is immensely exalted above the comprehension of men, however extensive their knowledge, however profound their understanding. How much more must it transcend the imaginations of them that have strayed from its light, and been shut out from its glory! Shouldst thou rend asunder the grievous veil that blindeth thy vision, thou wouldst behold such a bounty as naught, from the beginning that hath no beginning till the end that hath no end, can either resemble or equal.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 108

First, why does he have to talk like Shakespeare? Does he think that is how god talks?

The Quran says the same , just simpler.

"Are those who have knowledge and those who have no knowledge alike? Only the men of understanding are mindful. " (Quran, 39:9)


He's copying Paul as well:

"We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. 2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. 3 But whoever loves God is known by God - 1 Corinthians 8


Proverbs 3:5-6: This well-known passage advises, “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.”

AND OF COURSE _

The story of Adam and Eve: In the Garden of Eden, God prohibited Adam and Eve from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This story suggests that there can be negative consequences when humans seek knowledge beyond what is intended for them.

Doesn't make it true AT ALL. Don’t let cults brainwash you into thinking there is some special knowledge achieved from ignoring all the wu-wu and fallacies they use to promote beliefs!


Doesn't make it true AT ALL. Listen to a real philosopher. Use you mind, given by the universe.

No man is bound by the words of his ancestors if they are against reason.


Thomas Hobbes, a renowned philosopher, once stated, "No man is bound by the words of his ancestors if they are against reason." In this thought-provoking quote, Hobbes highlights the importance of critical thinking and the pursuit of rationality. He challenges the notion that one should blindly adhere to the beliefs handed down by their ancestors if they contradict logical reasoning. According to Hobbes, individuals have the intellectual autonomy to question and challenge ideas that do not align with reason and logic, encouraging them to seek truth independently. In essence, this quote calls for a society that values the power of reason over blind adherence to tradition, enabling progress and growth fueled by the pursuit of knowledge and rational judgment.

 

[joelr]

How would I "know" that? That is a Baha'i belief. And that is a major problem that some people have with Baha'is. And it is similar to the problem that some people have with any religion that believes that God only communicates to certain individuals who then tell everybody else what God expects of us and who God is. Are any of these individuals consistent with each other?

There is small to great variation between what these individuals say. People with beliefs like the born-again Christians simply say that most of those other individuals were false prophets. They do accept those from the Jewish religion, but they negate several things taught in Judaism and say those things have been replaced with new teachings from God.

A religion like the Baha'i Faith does that with all the other major religions. They say that those old teachings have been replaced by newer ones from their prophet. But not with everything... some teachings and beliefs, the ones I usually mention are reincarnation as believed by some Hindus, and the physical resurrection as believed by many Christians, these are done away with and discarded as being wrong beliefs based on misinterpretations of the Scriptures from those religions.

Either way, calling a religion false or saying it's been replaced by the new teachings of the new religion, the old religions are made irrelevant.

So this was 1870, we now had the Enlightenment, critical-history, secular humanism, trancendentalism and new types of spirituality, not associated with the church. We also had atheists and skeptics and science and high level philosophers.
If an unproven, mythical god from the world of fiction wants to demonstrate he is real and he's promoting yet a new religion (without causing more war and fighting) he's going to have to produce incredible evidence. Crack the moon in half, have all astronomers around the world witness it, dazzle us with science about the universe, show us quantum mechanics, make A.I., solve all math problems like Hilberts Problem, Reinmann Hypothesis, cure cancer, aging, re-set humanity. Give us renewable energy.
Otherwise, it's a hoax, personally I see that and will avoid. I hope every critical thinker does and demands an evidentiary standard that they would for any other claim. For a God claim it would require the highest evidence, or we can just move on without the nonsense.

 

[loverofhumanity]

All I can say is there's been lots of "gods" and lots of "prophets", and some of them were false. The religions of many ancient cultures were made up by the people. They all had stories of god/men and prophets. They all had their gods. But most of us these days believe that those religions were based on man-made myths.

Some of the stories in the Bible sound very much the same as some of those ancient myths. Now if you wanted to be consistent, you'd have to say that the religions of China, Greece, Egypt and of Meso-America were true, originally, but became corrupted over time. That's the way that Baha'is treat Judaism and Christianity.

But then there's Hinduism and Buddhism. What, if any, Scriptures do Baha'is accept as even close to authentic in either of those religions? I'm fine with them being fictional, religious myth. Or... Baha'is are stuck trying to make sense of them. Like how do Baha'is explain the many Gods of Hinduism? Baha'is are forced to come up with "symbolic" interpretations.

For me, I just say that I think those people, at that time, came up with beliefs and Gods to explain the world around them and to explain what happens to people after they die.

Know thou that the absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist. That no records concerning them are now available should be attributed to their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time. – Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 172.

We are taught there always have been Manifestations of God, but we do not have any record of Their names. (Shoghi Effendi)

So it is very possible that we have remnants of ancient Manifestations of God in the form of temples and statues dedicated to Them but Their teachings and Names are lost and unknown to us so we cannot include Them in our list of beliefs.

As far as Hinduism is concerned, we are told that Krishna was a Manifestation of God and we read the Bhagavad Gita in all our services. Buddha too we recognise as having received a Divine Revelation. In His prophecy concerning the future Buddha He says that ‘He will teach you the same truths I have taught’. If Baha’u’llah is the Fifth Buddha and He teaches that there is one God then this would confirm Buddha did teach about God but His teachings about God became changed or lost. And again we read from Buddhist scriptures in all our services.

 

[PureX]

Fiction is very often far better at revealing truth than facts are. And treating the writings of men as being magically inerrant is idolatry. Something both Islam and Christianity consider to be a grave sin.

As far as changing our minds, only those of us that presume we can't still be wrong even when we think we're right can't change their minds. And that, too, is a kind of self-idolatry.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It's not that I haven't listened to and studied the way Christians and Baha'is interpret the Bible..

OK..

Which story is not fiction... That Mary gave birth to Jesus in a stable in Bethlehem or, under a date palm tree?

Do you really expect all scripture that was revealed over 1000's of years to be inerrant?
Why? We know that history books give different accounts, but that does NOT make it fiction..
..it merely means that it is not accurate, for some reason.

And then there is "errors"... The Bible says that Abraham took Isaac to be sacrificed... An error? Since Islam and Baha'is say it was Ishmael, somethings wrong with the Bible version.... Or somethings wrong with the way Islam and the Baha'i Faith believes it happened.

Well, you know my answer to that .. i.e. the OT is comprised of many scrolls, of varying ages..
No .. you choose a 'divide and rule' strategy, that suggests it be impossible to know who's right,
so must be wrong.

 

[muhammad_isa]

For me, I just say that I think those people, at that time, came up with beliefs and Gods to explain the world around them and to explain what happens to people after they die.

It is incredible, that 'those people' concocted 'stories' that all tie together.
As I say, these particular beliefs were repeated time and again over 1000's of years.

 

[muhammad_isa]

To say someone is going to have a horrible doom for freedom of religion is hate..

..but that is not correct.
The doom does not occur due to not following a particular religion,
but for opposing truth. We bring it on ourselves.
eg. plotting to kill G-d's messengers

I didn't present the variations because I do not care. I know it's 99.999% likely to be man-made like all other scripture. I already know that..

No .. you don't know that .. it is your belief.

If you care about truth you will investigate from a non-bias scholarly source..

I quite agree with you .. and I can ensure you, that I do.

So this God enjoys war? Ridiculous. He knows everything so you cannot use any crap freewill argument. The story fails at every turn.

No .. G-d does not like us oppressing each other, but has decreed war as a means of
stopping tyrants spreading evil, such as Hitler for instance.

..and yes, G-d knows the future .. He simply knows what we will choose.
i.e. the future is not hidden for G-d .. 'time' is not absolute, as you might presume
There is no "clock on the wall" in heaven.

 

[Trailblazer]

Lot of problems here.

1) Now you are a mind reader. You suddenly know how, why, and to what degree I think and how it impacts my beliefs. Ridiculous.

I never said that. I was only observing that you are caught up in a morass of details about religions, so it seems to me that maybe you think that the more you know the closer you will get to discovering the real truth about a religion or religions.

2) You DID NOT explain why one would overlook serious issues like incorrect prophecies, poor writings, no supernatural abilities or knowledge, looks like plagarism, God or the supernatural has NEVER been demonstrated.

It is only your personal opinion that there are incorrect prophecies, poor writings, no supernatural abilities or knowledge, looks like plagarism, so there is nothing to overlook.

3) You did not explain what the heck this even means? I do understand the overall picture, his writings and message. It's a bunch of works clearly copied from the Quran and Bible, very little to zero knowledge of modern philosophers, which he should know, a lot of space filling with redundant worship language, no actual spiritual advice whatsoever outside of bland generalizations. At least Krishna was written by a group of authors who understood some philosophy on ethics, moral, dilemmas about duty, family, and so on.

More personal opinions, no facts.

A bunch of works clearly copied from the Quran and Bible. That sounds like an allegation.
Where is your proof? NOWHERE.

4) Then you propose that horribly wrong prophecies, lack of science knowledge, and all the other issues don't matter????

More personal opinions, no facts.

YET, this is the reason you don't become a Mormon or a Jehova Witness or a Scientologist or go join Jesus in AU in his ministry. It's just your religion that should get a pass on everything for some "truth" that you cannot explain?

WHAT TRUTH? Yes Joseph Smith was also visited by an angel and revealed divine wisdom. Oh, his story is not believable? Because the details are silly? So I guess they matter after all? Huh? Special pleading.

5) Cult talk. This is classic cult manipulation. "Oh don't look at all the inconsistencies! See the big picture! See the TREES! Don't ask questions. Don't seek answers."
No thank you. How about you explain all this.

There is NOTHING to explain.
What other religions teach and what other people believe has no impact whatsoever upon whether or not the Baha'i Faith is true.

I do not need a pass from you to believe what I believe.

If you see inconsistencies you see them, but that is only your personal opinion that there ARE inconsistencies.
I don't see them and that is because we all view things differently. I am not going to try to get you to see things differently because you have your mind made up, or so it seems.

Did you think saying it again would make it make any more sense? I'm sorry, it doesn't.

It makes perfect sense to me, but we all see things differently.

And no I do not think knowledge will get me closer to god because god is a fiction. Feel free to demonstrate evidence for god.

If you believe that God is fiction why waste the precious little time you have on earth talking about religion?
If I did not believe that God is real I would be off sunning myself on a beach, not on this forum talking about God and religion.

There is no proof that God exists, only evidence.
The Messengers of God are the evidence. That cannot be demonstrated, only believed.

But the Bahai faith, yes. Once again, please explain how understanding all prophecies were insanely wrong isn't a clue?

They weren't wrong.

Explain how lack of evidence isn't a clue? Or finding the writings to be mundane to be helpful?

There is no lack of evidence.

And why is it not SO HYPOCRITICAL that you judge Mormonism, and all other religions the SAME WAY I JUDGE BAHAI, as made up.

I do not judge Mormonism, I just don't believe it is a true religion.
It is my business what I believe, not yours.

Judge the Baha'i Faith all you want to. All your judging is like water off a duck's back since I know the truth, and nobody can ever take that away from me.

 

[Trailblazer]

And I found his prophecies are all wrong. His philosophy doesn't exist. His writings are poor quality, redundant, flowery praise language, never really say anything and if they do it's re-hashed scripture.

That is only your personal opinion, not a fact.

He did no supernatural things or had no supernatural power or knowledge, something all revelation people have or at least their god does it for them to get things started.

That is only your personal opinion, not a fact.

Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

He also is an offshoot of Judaism and Islam, Judaism is a complete mythology, has no evidence it's real and excellent evidence it's made up stories because in that time that is what people did. All the theology is borrowed and Yahweh is a Mesopotamian deity in looks, action, speech, activity, motivation and anything else.

That is only your personal opinion, not a fact.

whenever anyone tells you not to learn, run the other way. They are looking to get you int a cult.

I never suggested that you not learn. Neither did Baha'u'llah.

“Man is the supreme Talisman. Lack of a proper education hath, however, deprived him of that which he doth inherently possess. Through a word proceeding out of the mouth of God he was called into being; by one word more he was guided to recognize the Source of his education; by yet another word his station and destiny were safeguarded. The Great Being saith: Regard man as a mine rich in gems of inestimable value. Education can, alone, cause it to reveal its treasures, and enable mankind to benefit therefrom.”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 259-260​

But once you have learned something why do you keep rehashing it?
One does not go back to third grade after they are in high school.

First, why does he have to talk like Shakespeare? Does he think that is how god talks?

The Quran says the same , just simpler.

"Are those who have knowledge and those who have no knowledge alike? Only the men of understanding are mindful. " (Quran, 39:9)

He's copying Paul as well:

"We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. 2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. 3 But whoever loves God is known by God - 1 Corinthians 8

He did not talk like Shakespeare. His writings were translated into King James English by Shoghi Effendi.

Baha'u'llah did not copy any previous scriptures. He received a NEW Revelation from God.
The reason it sounds the same is because it all came from the same God, and spiritual truths are eternal, they do not change over time.
Funny thing, I don't see you accusing Muhammad of copying Paul.

 

[CG Didymus]

As @Trailblazer has just said, why find the errors, and conclude therefore, that G-d does
not exist or people have made it all up etc. ?

And she also just said that why does all of the Bible have to be true in order for some of the Bible to be true?
She says that is an all or nothing fallacy.

I would think that if Jews and Christians are counting on it being the "Word of God" it better be the absolute truth. If it contains errors, has things that religious leaders made-up, then it's not "The Word of God", it is their words about who they believe their God is.

 

[CG Didymus]

WHAT TRUTH? Yes Joseph Smith was also visited by an angel and revealed divine wisdom. Oh, his story is not believable? Because the details are silly? So I guess they matter after all? Huh? Special pleading.

A religion with more followers than the Baha'i Faith, and it's fiction. Yes, a fictional religious story can and does get accepted as truth by some people. Then this thing about it being okay for the Bible to contain some errors... but what about the Quran and the Baha'i writings?

Yeah that's why I studied -

She said that other religions don't have anything to do with the Baha'i Faith? The Baha'i Faith claims that they all came from the same God that they believe in, and that "progressive" revelation is how God gives his "truth" to people... a little at a time, with the new message building on the old. They claim the "social" laws change in each, but the "spiritual" message is the same.

Studying the other religions seems like something that is necessary to check and see if the Baha'i claims are true.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I would think that if Jews and Christians are counting on it being the "Word of God" it better be the absolute truth. If it contains errors, has things that religious leaders made-up, then it's not "The Word of God", it is their words about who they believe their God is.

Oh, I see .. so you are the type of person to "throw the baby away with the bathwater".

It's much like saying, because history books contain errors, then the whole of history is "wrong",
and so we have no history.

 

[Trailblazer]

I would think that if Jews and Christians are counting on it being the "Word of God" it better be the absolute truth. If it contains errors, has things that religious leaders made-up, then it's not "The Word of God", it is their words about who they believe their God is.

Most Christians and Jews I have posted to say that they realize the Bible contains errors. There are only a numbered few fundamentalists who insist that the Bible contains no errors.

The Bible is not the Word of God in any real sense, since God did not write it. At best it was inspired by the Holy Spirit, but it was written by men, so it is bound to contain errors. Only if Jesus or Moses had written it in their own pens would it be inerrant, like the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

A religion with more followers than the Baha'i Faith, and it's fiction. Yes, a fictional religious story can and does get accepted as truth by some people.

How many followers a religion has has no bearing upon whether it is true or not. To claim that would be the fallacy of ad populum.

She said that other religions don't have anything to do with the Baha'i Faith? The Baha'i Faith claims that they all came from the same God that they believe in, and that "progressive" revelation is how God gives his "truth" to people... a little at a time, with the new message building on the old. They claim the "social" laws change in each, but the "spiritual" message is the same.

Studying the other religions seems like something that is necessary to check and see if the Baha'i claims are true.

Studying the other religions is not necessary to check and see if the Baha'i claims are true since those religions are separate religions and they have nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith, except that the Baha'u'llah was the fulfillment of the prophecies of all the past religions. However, neither Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l-Baha ever told people to study prophecies in order to determine if the claims of Baha'u'llah are true.

Do Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Christians or Muslims study other religions?
Studying other religions only distracts you from studying the Baha'i Faith, although that would only matter if you really want to now if the Baha'i Faith is true.

If you spent even 25% of the time that you spend studying other religions studying the Baha'i Faith you might be a Baha'i by now.