Can we change our mind about what we believe?

[joelr]

..but that is not correct.
The doom does not occur due to not following a particular religion,
but for opposing truth.

You haven't demonstrated a book is truth? It's supposed to be corrections of Christianity, people who would NEVER fall for that without God himself showing up and telling them, and now this god expects all Christians to just follow a different culture and a foreign looking scripture. Even though Jesus warned about that? No chance, worst method ever.

You cannot call it truth until it is demonstrated. So it's hate against religions. People who are just trying as hard as they can to worship properly and just like your book says that about other religions, so does their book. So it's wrong, it's immoral, not shown to be truth and I would never worship such a being even if it were real.

We bring it on ourselves.
eg. plotting to kill G-d's messengers

First there is no evidence any Christian can know their religion is wrong. It's all anecdotal and 2nd hand evidence.

But these people don't want eternal doom, so it's the god. Who is a moral monster. What would your loved ones have to do to send them to eternal fire? Besides leaving terrible evidence, with other people, nothing justifies that. Also freedom of religion is not immoral?
We now consider that moral.

No .. you don't know that .. it is your belief.

No but I have evidence. We have a document, dated far before the Quran, with variations and passages that do not exist in the Quran.
That isn't my belief? I'm just going by evidence.

Funny when backed into a corner against actual evidence all you can say is "it's your belief".

If we made a time machine and went back and saw people working on the Quran in segments in 5 AD, you would just say "that is your belief".

Sure, whatever.

I quite agree with you .. and I can ensure you, that I do.

You don't and you are telling a lie. Every non-bias scholar I ever sourced you BLAMED their non-belief as the reason (rather than the evidence), didn't look at it (claimed you didn't care about non-believers evidence), and any other lame reason to keep yourself from being educated.

So to now pretend like you would do differently is absurd.
You don't care about the truth, you only care about saying and doing anything to justify and keep your beliefs true. Anything is on the table.

You several times wrote off the entirse field of historians for no valid reason except they don't agree with you.
Now, with one palimpsest, you ignore it, don't investigate it, assume somehow it cannot be what it looks to be and proven that you will not look at any non-bias sources in scholarship, ever, under any condition.

Odd that you think you would though. I wonder if you don't realize how much cognitive bias you use?

No .. G-d does not like us oppressing each other, but has decreed war as a means of
stopping tyrants spreading evil, such as Hitler for instance.

If that God were real he 100% enjoys humans at war. Again, Christians, fully devoted, build huge churches, pray all the time, submit themselves, spread the word, take over most of Europe, prove they take this serious and that god himself inspired the collection of the 4 Gospels and the other books to represent him. Lived like this for many centuries. And like in your book Yahweh warns of false prophets.

Then, you claim it's actually all wrong and what does god do? Does he appear to the Pope? To a Bishop? To the masses in Rome at a service?
Nope. He sends an angel to an Arab in a cave to create a new religion and later when it gets big the Christians can just "find out". As if they would EVER buy into that? Absolutely insane and so obviously not a god but created by people. The palimpsest is just a bit of obvious evidence of what really happened.
But if it was real the god knows all so he would know it would be a terrible idea unless he also went to the Christians and gave the same message AT LEAST. There are no gods here.

..and yes, G-d knows the future .. He simply knows what we will choose.

Yup, and didn't care that it would just cause massive hatred between religious groups.

i.e. the future is not hidden for G-d .. 'time' is not absolute, as you might presume
There is no "clock on the wall" in heaven.

So he is a total monster.

But, there is also no evidence except fiction. Your ideas about not needing clocks in heaven are fan-fiction, adding nonsense onto made up stories. Heaven is from hellenism, it was a myth in Greek religions and it is a myth still now.

 

[joelr]

I never said that. I was only observing that you are caught up in a morass of details about religions, so it seems to me that maybe you think that the more you know the closer you will get to discovering the real truth about a religion or religions.

No I was not "caught up" or in a "morass of details". I was looking at evidence. Which is what everyone, including you, do before believing something. I do not care if you read his writings and thought you had a flash of insight. Your latest attempt here is to gaslight my investigations into a negative light. Manipulative, but ineffective at making any real point.

It is only your personal opinion that there are incorrect prophecies, poor writings, no supernatural abilities or knowledge, looks like plagarism, so there is nothing to overlook.

Yes, a form of apologetics just used by someone else, pure denial. Every prophecy was literally wrong.

Prophecy in 1870 - "The Missing link will never be found" (a common belief among people at that time, so he was hedging his bets)

Current science -
"
In a new breakthrough, scientists have confirmed a key “missing link” in the human family tree that helps explain the evolution of upright apes into early humans.

The findings put an end to a decade-long debate and confirm that early humans were in fact still swinging from trees less than 2 million years ago.

Scientists identified the new “family tree member” Australopithecus sediba using fossils that were actually found 10 years ago at a site in Malapa, South Africa, known as the “Cradle of Humankind.” But until now, it had not been clear whether or not the fossils belonged to an already known species."



Your latest attempt here is just dishonest denial and ineffective at making any real point.

More personal opinions, no facts.

Cool, please post some scripture from Bahai with any modern philosophy.

A bunch of works clearly copied from the Quran and Bible. That sounds like an allegation.
Where is your proof? NOWHERE.

The proof is here. In the last 2 posts I demonstrated all 4 passages from Bahai scripture were likely taken from the Bible and Quran and gave the verses. I'll keep doing it if you like.
Anyone is free to read scripture and see what was taken from the Bible. Same with the Quran.

Comparing Islam And Baha ' I And Islam​

The similarities of these two religions are uncanny. They are so closely related, and the differences seem so miniscule, at least to the eye of an outsider looking in. When it come to the prayer life of members of the two religions, they are almost identical. They both pray multiple times a day, prayer is obligatory for both, there are movements and gestures to go along with the prayers, the prayers are done facing a certain location, either Mecca or Qiblih, and they are both rooted from the same region in the world. In all reality the only major difference causing these two religions to tear each other apart, is what they believe about the manifestation of Allah. Other than that they are both monotheistic, follow teachings from the prophet Mohammad, and have a regulated form of prayer for members of the religion to follow.

More personal opinions, no facts.

That was a response to - "Then you propose that horribly wrong prophecies, lack of science knowledge, and all the other issues don't matter????"

I'll get back to this.

There is NOTHING to explain.

Translation, "I cannot explain" I'm asking why cult tactics are being used. The tactics are attempting to create a misdirection that investigating facts is bad. Looking at the actual prophecies. You posted a link to a book with all the prophecies as evidence way back. Then I look at all of them and debunk them, suddenly it's wrong to not see the "big picture". The goalpost moving is insane.
Every prophecy is incorrect. There is no modern philosophy in the scripture, he uses run-on endless praise language to say mostly nothing. HE knows nothing beyond what a human would know. These are serious issues. But to raise them brings this response - "there is nothing to explain", or "see the big picture".....

I ask for the big picture and I get a run-around that again there is nothing to explain. Yet this idea about seeing the big picture and ignoring the problems is all I asked about. Suddenly it's "my opinion" and "nothing to explain". Total goal post moving, word salad, cluster mess.

What other religions teach and what other people believe has no impact whatsoever upon whether or not the Baha'i Faith is true.

Except we can see he is copying the Bible and Quran.

I do not need a pass from you to believe what I believe.

weird strawman out of nowhere?

If you see inconsistencies you see them, but that is only your personal opinion that there ARE inconsistencies.
I don't see them and that is because we all view things differently. I am not going to try to get you to see things differently because you have your mind made up, or so it seems.

See the gaslighting? The prophecies are not wrong in an "opinion". He said cancer would be found to be communicable.
He said Newtons alchemy would be common. At that time it was thought that that was going to happen. We would be able to easily take a metal and transform it into gold. There were ideas then about cancer being transmitted like a cold.

What are the odds that he was taking hings that were expected to happen withing 20 years and predicting they would happen? Very good odds. They did not, he was wrong and he had no god whispering in his ear. Because if he did the god would say, "everything is made of atoms, atoms have a particle in the middle and a charged particle orbiting. They make all the elements. Light has a speed limit. Particles are waves and particles. The galaxy is one of billions and the universe is expanding. And so on. It wouldn't be the things that people already expected, it would be the things we had not even thought of because we couldn't. Only God would be able to tell us.

A number in pi we haven't calculated. It WAS THE SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTION.
He got ALL of his scientific predictions wrong. HE WAS MAKING THEM UP.

This is all tap dancing to desperately try to make this line of thinking wrong. What a cult will do. "don't think too much?"

It makes perfect sense to me, but we all see things differently.

To someone who ignores all the literally wrong prophecies. Ignores the lack of writing and philosophy skills. Ignores the lack of supernatural abilities or any other type of evidence, nothing new even though the revelations are supposed to be "progressive", these are not.

To someone who thinks evidence is literally "a guy claims to be a messenger". That's it. He claimed it, so it must be real.

Yes, I bet it makes lots of sense. Good luck with that.

If you believe that God is fiction why waste the precious little time you have on earth talking about religion?

I'm not talking about religion. I'm talking about critical thinking.

If I did not believe that God is real I would be off sunning myself on a beach, not on this forum talking about God and religion.

I don't like beaches that much unless I'm doing cardio, I hate sunning, I get the point.

Now we gaslight my just being here. Wonderful people.

I care about critical thinking and would like people to be exposed to faulty arguments.

There is no proof that God exists, only evidence.
The Messengers of God are the evidence. That cannot be demonstrated, only believed.

See, I can't make this up. It's true because he claimed it's true. No different than "its' true because the book says so".

We have circled back to the worst reason to believe something Which turns out to be the only actual evidence they have.


Which also means Jesus in AU, who currently has a ministry, has evidence. HE IS THE EVIDENCVE!


Looks like Mormonism is also true because the MESSENGER (Joseph Smith) IS THE EVIDENCE.

Cargo Cults would also be true because the shaman messenger who had divine revelations from the communication pole left by the U.S. Navy, IS THE EVIDENCE!!!

Wow, so much is true I had no idea it was so easy?

They weren't wrong.

Oh the prophecies, I'll re-post them in that case.

"No mising link", not wrong? We found it. Then found more, but "not wrong".

So if you just use denial hard enough does something become true?

There is no lack of evidence.

Sure, all you need is any evidence at all?

I do not judge Mormonism, I just don't believe it is a true religion.
It is my business what I believe, not yours.

Oh wow, ok, SO.....when it comes to your beliefs, it's your business. But MY beliefs, you sure have a lot to say about.

But how can Mormonism not be true when they also have a messenger, which is your evidence?

Judge the Baha'i Faith all you want to. All your judging is like water off a duck's back since I know the truth, and nobody can ever take that away from me.

1) I'm not judging Bahai, I'm looking at the evidence, true things would not be afraid of having evidence examined.

2)The evidence already suggests no God is real, all Gods are mythology, people do make up revelations or are delusional. The afterlife is a product of Greek mythology. That is true for all religions, nothing special to Bahai. But a supernatural claim must be evaluated by the evidence, for those who care about what is actually true.

3) Gaslighting my evaluation into a "judgment that rolls off a duck's back" is manipulative and dishonest. Having to resort to this over and over shows you are probably clinging to something not real.

4)I already told you I don't care what you believe. I never said stop believing. Believe in whatever you like. If you openly claim it's real, on a public debate forum I will challenge the assertions and the evidence.

5) Calling a mere debate " All your judging ", is further gaslighting, especially ON A PUBLIC DEBATE FORUM. And is truly absurd. If you cannot handle a simple discussion about truth what are you doing here?

 

[joelr]

That is only your personal opinion, not a fact.

An answer to this claim - "He did no supernatural things or had no supernatural power or knowledge, something all revelation people have or at least their god does it for them to get things started."


Please do not link to a book. Tell me ONE supernatural thing, power or knowledge, that can be confirmed to be supernatural, that he did. Start with one.

Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

No, I looked through this and found NOTHING. You tell me ONE "famous miracle" he did. Because I went through ALL of the prophecies, wrote about how they were wrong, literally wrong. And you dishonestly just said "they were not wrong".
Total denial.

Now, you post a book as if I'm going to find another fraud and post it and we know what happens then. "his miracles were real". It wouldn't matter if there was video of him faking something. You have already used dishonesty and removed yourself from a real discussion. You will just ignore my response and wait, then say "you never disproved his miracles, they are real, it's your opinion".



https://bahai-library.com/gammage_famous_miracles

That is only your personal opinion, not a fact.

"He also is an offshoot of Judaism and Islam, Judaism is a complete mythology, has no evidence it's real and excellent evidence it's made up stories because in that time that is what people did. All the theology is borrowed and Yahweh is a Mesopotamian deity in looks, action, speech, activity, motivation and anything else."

My posts are full of evidence against Judaism. Anyone can study the scholarship. God: An Anatomy is a great place to start by Fransesca Strak.....


There are many sources that point out the similarities between Bahai and Islam, not hard to find. Every scripture that has been posted I gave a similar verse from the Quran or Bible. Keep posting them, I will keep showing you similarities. Where is this "progressive revelation"????????

I never suggested that you not learn. Neither did Baha'u'llah.

Yep, you sure did, here it is - "
They think that the more they KNOW about a religion the closer they will get to finding the truth about that religion, but what actually happens is that they completely lose sight of the tree (religion) because it gets lost in the forest of trees (details about a religion that don't really matter) ...
Trees, trees, trees everywhere. "

notice, uses a tactic, then denies it, waits, uses it, denies it. Whatever works in the moment.

“Man is the supreme Talisman. Lack of a proper education hath, however, deprived him of that which he doth inherently possess. Through a word proceeding out of the mouth of God he was called into being; by one word more he was guided to recognize the Source of his education; by yet another word his station and destiny were safeguarded. The Great Being saith: Regard man as a mine rich in gems of inestimable value. Education can, alone, cause it to reveal its treasures, and enable mankind to benefit therefrom.”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 259-260​

“The seeking of knowledge is obligatory for every Muslim.”- Al-Tirmidhi, 74


http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-122.html.utf8?query=education&action=highlight#pg260

But once you have learned something why do you keep rehashing it?
One does not go back to third grade after they are in high school.

Why do you repeat the same non-evidence over and over?
Why do you continue to deny prophecies are wrong?
Why do you keep repeating the same points, despite that they have been debunked?
Why do you keep posting the same useless books over and over?
why do you quote from a man who claims to be a prophet without evidence or saying anything new?
why do you keep pretending god is already demonstrated and your religion is the ultimate truth without evidence?

He did not talk like Shakespeare. His writings were translated into King James English by Shoghi Effendi.

Why did Shoghi Effendi think he needed to sound like Shakespeare?

Baha'u'llah did not copy any previous scriptures. He received a NEW Revelation from God.

Here we go........That is only your personal opinion, not a fact.


HA HA HA HA.


I could leave it there except I actually have an argument, so I cannot.

Please demonstrate something in that scripture that is NEW.

If it's "new" why is almost all of it already said in the Quran and Bible? Just because he changes the wording and adds flare doesn't make it new?

The reason it sounds the same is because it all came from the same God, and spiritual truths are eternal, they do not change over time.

Ah, so it isn't "new" then. You are now saying it's just more of the same. Except one of the books you likned to said "how do we know Bahai is real??" And gave a list.
Prophecies (fail)
new philosophy (fail)

where is the new philosophy?

Funny thing, I don't see you accusing Muhammad of copying Paul.

Muhammad mostly reworked the OT.
But why would I mention Muhammad in a Bahai discussion? I mentioned Paul because you posted a Bahai quote which was clearly similar to Paul and Muhammad? Why would I mention that? This topic is Bahai is a made up religion. Not Islam? That doesn't make sense?

 

[joelr]

That is only your personal opinion, not a fact.

Answer to: "And I found his prophecies are all wrong. "
Cool, I can re-post it. From the book you link to, all prophecies,



This is not a list of prophecies that came true or fit some world situation, it’s a list of cherry-picked predictions that were able to fit to some world event. Predictions that could not be found to fit something are simply not on the list. The author went through scripture to find things he could try to make fit. The science prophecies are perfect because now we have definitive answers. He was completely wrong or vague.


Science

All of these prophecies take huge amounts of apologetic explaining and weaving together desperate narratives to even justify most of them. Even when he explains a prophecy that is completely wrong about hominid fossil remains and has to cite a fringe outdated book from 1984 he ends the section with “'Abdu'l-Baha's prediction and actual events is nothing less than astounding.”

’This is manipulation designed to leave the reader with an impression that he was not only correct but astoundingly so. It’s designed to make one forget they just basically read that he was wrong. Because he is. There is no scientist who will say the “missing link” has never been found. Only creationists still claim this.

Prophecy 20: The explosive acceleration of scientific and technological progress

This had been already happening for centuries. You cannot be serious with this.

Prophecy 21: The development of nuclear weapons.

Fusion and fission is not “in the earth”. It does not change the atmosphere. There is always going to be “a stupendous force” that is yet undiscovered. This is still true today. Atoms had been a serious theory in 1860 with Maxwell and all he hd to do here was confirm atoms are real. He could have talked about a nucleus and an orbiting particle. He could have said this is where the force would come from. He could have said the force keeping the nucleus together is what is responsible for the greater of the 2 forces. He did not say there would be 2 forces at all. Notice how vague all prophecies are, they can fit any new discovery, even true today.

“Strange and astonishing things exist in the earth but they are hidden from the minds and the understanding of men. These things are capable of changing the whole atmosphere of the earth and their contamination would prove lethal.141


This reference to 'strange and astonishing things' apdy describes the twin processes of fission and fusion by which we obtain nuclear energy. The reality of such a power was again affirmed in 1911 by 'Abdu'1-Baha:


There is in existence a stupendous force, as yet, happily, undiscovered by man. Let us supplicate God, the Beloved, that this force be not discovered by science until spiritual civilization shall dominate the human mind. In the hands of men of lower material nature, this power would be able to destroy the whole earth.142”

Prophecy 22: The achievement of transmutation of elements, the age-old alchemist's dream.

This is simply wrong. What he is talking about was an obsession for Newton. From that obsession he likely also believed it would one day become real. The alchemy he is talking about is not what was ever discovered.

Prophecy 23: Dire peril for all humanity as a result of that achievement

Also wrong, big time.

Prophecy 24: The discovery that complex elements evolve in nature from simpler ones.

Before this prediction there had already been so much work on elements. This was already known.

“ In 1864, a book of his was published; it contained an early version of the periodic table containing 28 elements, and classified elements into six families by their valence—for the first time, elements had been grouped according to their valence.”


Prophecy 25: The recognition of planets as a necessary by-product of star formation

This was known or speculated, but it doesn’t say exactly what he even said. As you see here, much of what he says is nonsense, the author even has to say it’s “up to science to determine” the actual answer. Uh, right, or you could just say the answer if you have magic powers?

“(Furthermore, Baha'u'Uah's teachings explicitly state that even 'minerals are endowed with a spirit and life according to the requirements of that stage ... even as He saith in the Qur'an, "All things are living".'156 Thus rocks, ponds, clouds and other inanimate objects may, in some rudimentary sense, fall within Baha'u'Uah's definition of'creatures'. Shoghi Effendi has in any case stated: 'The creatures which Baha'u'llah states to be found on every planet cannot be considered to be necessarily similar [to] or different from human beings on this earth ... It remains for science to discover one day the exact nature of these creatures'.157)”


Prophecy 26: Space travel.

Already a huge part of science fiction and something that would happen someday.

Prophecy 27: The realization that some forms of cancer are communicable.

Never happened.


Prophecy 28: Failure to find evidence for a 'missing link' between man and ape.

This is the biggest fail of all. At the time it was thought the missing link would never be found. Religious people were very much against the idea of a line of evolving hominids because they were certain a God had created humans. This was standard belief even for casual religious minded people.

Prophecy 29: The nonexistence of a mechanical ether (the supposed light-carrying medium posited by classical physics) and its redefinition as an abstract reality.


The author goes on to say, “During the latter part of the 1800s, evidence had mounted steadily that light (once regarded as a stream of particles) was actually a wave or vibration.” He could have simply predicted that in the first place.


On this topic he said”'Abdu'l-Bah£ indicated that this conception was wrong. In explaining the distinction between the two types of reality, He left no doubt as to where ether belonged: 'Even ethereal matter, die forces of which are said in physics to be heat, light, electricity and magnetism, is an intellectual reality.. ."85 He emphasized that M it was 'not material', had 'no outward form and no I place', and was describable only by symbols and meta-■ phors no more to be taken literally than those referring I to any other abstract phenomenon.186 I From the standpoint of classical physics, this was I rank heresy. Although 'Abdu'1-Baha was using con-I ventional terminology, “


Notice the author has to make excuses for the BS here calling it “con-I-ventional terminology”.

That is the some bad excuse apologetics right there. He makes prophecies because he “knows stuff” but has to talk about science in some abstract language? Or is he simply wrong? Yes, he is, because he manages to talk about most science in the same terms as scientists. It’s just when he’s wrong it becomes “con-I-ventional”.


Whatever.


He spends the next chapter trying to justify this prediction. These are prophecies that mostly need long extended explanation apologetics to even make any sense of. You should read how bad he tries to justify the no missing link prophecy.


“At the time of 'Abdu'l-Baha's Stanford address, evolutionists anticipated that palaeontology would quickly redraw the fossil histories of man and ape, showing just where and how the two lines were connected. Today, after approximately eighty years of intense research, they seem as far as ever from their goal. It no longer seems far-fetched to believe 'Abdu'l-Baha was right - that fossil proof of such kinship will always remain out of reach. Niles Eldredge and Ian Tattersall, in The Myths of Human Evolution, conclude that man's search for his ancestry probably is futile. If the evidence were there, they write, 'one could confi-dendy expect that as more hominid fossils were found the story of human evolution would become clearer. Whereas, if anything, the opposite has occurred.'180


We are, of course, free to speculate on what new findings may come to light as a result of deeper digging. Nevertheless, the correspondence to date between 'Abdu'l-Baha's prediction and actual events is nothing less than astounding.”


So he’s completely wrong, but he’s massively outdated. He has to source a 1984 book that is more of an apologetic work and not remotely the consensus even at that time. Since then much has changed regarding the findings of fossil remains.


There is an academic review of the book he sources and it is as bad as I’m making it out to be:

“I have several beefs with this book.


First, there are too many signs of carelessness. I have already referred to errors in the first section, and while some errors in the rest of the book are relatively esoteric (e.g., George Busk was a surgeon, not “an anatomist”; Sir Arthur Smith Woodward did not “excavate cranial, mandibular and dental evidence of Piltdown”; Olduvai Gorge is not an erosional “gulley”; the “First Family” did not perish together; there is no preserved Australopithecus anamensis “ankle joint”, and australopiths did not live in “high densities”), others connected with the tables and figures are not. For example, all three columns in Table 2.1 are mislabeled, the field/museum number of the “Lucy” associated skeleton given in Figure 4.1 is AL 488—it should be A.L. 288, and the modern human and Neanderthal skeletons in Figure 8.2 are mislabeled. For non-specialist readers, for whom this book is presumably intended, these errors will lead to unnecessary confusion. Hopefully, they can be put right, but it does make one wonder what editorial controls are in place for checking the books in this relatively new series.


Second, my preference is that the personal opinions of the authors of introductory books should not be apparent to the reader. I am aware that this is not easy, and although I tried to do this for the OUP’s Human Evolution: A Very Short Introduction, I am sure I did not always succeed. In contrast, Tattersall seems to revel in emphasizing his preferences and prejudices, but they are not what readers wants to know. They want to know where the middle ground is. If it is useful to know both sides of a debate, then give both sides, not just one, and unless one side is obviously wrong, don’t add your hand to one side of the scale.”

Tattersall’s take on human evolution

Boiling human evolution down to 150 pages is a challenge. I know, because I had to boil it down to 125 pages for OUP’s Human Evolution: A Very Short Introd

academic.oup.com

 

[muhammad_isa]

I wonder if you don't realize how much cognitive bias you use?

Snap! You only pick your atheist sources?

Then, you claim it's actually all wrong..

No .. I do NOT claim that "it's all wrong".
Christians have got it RIGHT! God exists, and created the universe.
Some details are wrong, yes.

..but most Christians I know pray to God .. and believe in righteousness.

But, there is also no evidence except fiction..

Funny that .. you claim that the OT, NT & Qur'an are a trilogy by many authors written over 1000's of years.
Now THAT, I cannot believe .. it makes no sense .. why would so many people make it all up?
I would not believe it, if it made no sense. It makes PLENTY of sense.
Righteousness is not invented .. we have the free-will to follow what we choose.

 

[joelr]

Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

Famous Miracles in the Bahá'í Faith

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

bahai-library.com

The Báb cured Munírih Khánum’s parents of infertility; and their daughter later became ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s wife:
No, someone told him they had no children and he blessed them. “In due time” they had children. That’s it.

The Bab beseeched God that travels over the oceans of the world might become easier and safer:

Yes, sea travel became safer. In the age of a technological revolution. I now predict A.I. will become better. Am I a messenger?

One time, the religious leaders in Persia asked Baha’u’llah to perform a miracle to prove the reality of His mission. Here’s what happened:


Actually nothing happened. They asked him for a miracle, before he did anything the people who asked said ““This man is an enchanter; perhaps he will perform an enchantment, and then we shall have nothing more to say.” Acting on this belief, they did not dare to push the matter further. “


And that’s it, again. Nothing. This made the list.

Baha’u’llah bore his ordeals, calamities and suffering so that heavenly miracles, among other things, would be wrought among men:

And no miracle is listed, he just bore his ideals and had a lot of energy. You would not believe this so I’ll post the “miracle” that followed this introduction-

“During His lifetime He [Baha’u’llah] was intensely active. His energy was unlimited. Scarcely one night was passed in restful sleep. He bore these ordeals, suffered these calamities and difficulties in order that a manifestation of selflessness and service might become apparent in the world of humanity; that the Most Great Peace should become a reality; that human souls might appear as the angels of heaven; that heavenly miracles would be wrought among men; that human faith should be strengthened and perfected; that the precious, priceless bestowal of God, the human mind, might be developed to its fullest capacity in the temple of the body; and man become the reflection and likeness of God, even as it hath been revealed in the Bible: “We shall create man in Our own image. (Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 223)”

Wow.

The following story by Haji Mirza Haydar-‘Ali confirms the power of the revealed Word. Haji was introduced to a person who was opposed to the Faith and found it very difficult to be convinced of its truth. This is a summary of his account:

He read a Persian tablet and the man dropped to his knees and prayed. Do you think he may have been primed for a conversion
Funny, I see this on evangelical TV all the time. Still nothing about atoms.

During the new Governor’s short tenure of office he did a great deal to further the cause of education in ‘Akká, and also to secure for the city a good supply of fresh water. Towards the exiles he displayed a very friendly manner. And now another miracle was witnessed by all in ‘Akká, when, from deep wells that had carried only brackish water, fresh water suitable for human consumption gushed out. Describing this period, the Guardian of the Bahá’í Faith has written:


Though Bahá’u’lláh Himself practically never granted personal interviews, as He had been used to do in Baghdad, yet such was the influence He now wielded that the inhabitants openly asserted that the noticeable improvement in the climate and water of their city was directly attributable to His continued presence in their midst. (H.M. Balyuzi, Baha’u’llah – The King of Glory, p. 354)

Wow, did the water often clear up, was that something that did happen? We just don’t know because no other information is given. I’m sure there were many children with cancer in the hospital, but he gets credit for clear water. Could the story also be embellished? Is there a source? Why, NO, there is not.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá calms the weather so people can enjoy their feast:

A story follows from a man named Earl Redman, who bought into the Bahai story and followed Bad around so he could document all the miraculous things.
Here a storm goes away. Storms do go away quickly in this region, but it’s also anecdotal from a man who wants him to be a savior figure. This is basically Joseph Smith version 2.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá healed Corrine True’s daughter:

No documentation she had anything serious, she had a cough and was worried about TB. She didn’t have TB, no test confirmed she had TB. We will never hear about the people he may have given a healing touch and didn’t heal. He definitely did not go to a children’s ward and heal children, which is one could heal and they don’t do this they should be run out of town. Fraud.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá cured Ruth Randall of tuberculosis in both lungs:

At this time about 15% of people died from TB with treatment.
Still not at a children’s hospital curing TB?
‘Abdu’l-Bahá cured the grand-daughter of Henry Birks, the founder of a chain of high-end Canadian jewellery stores:

Only rich people get his help? The girl was 12 and her parents were crazy and kept her inside fearing all germs. He told her to spend time outside and it helped. Miracles?
Shoghi Effendi cured Rúhiyyih Khánum’s father of dementia:

When my father fell desperately ill in the winter of 1949-50 his condition was despaired of by his doctors…..

This was William Sutherland Maxwell, died 25 March 1952
He wasn’t healed by miracle, he was awarded a title because he was a rich donor:

“For this work and for his long devotion to the Baháʼí Faith he was recognized as a Hand of the Cause of God by Shoghi Effendi in December 1951.”
He was “recognized”. No healing, he died in 1952?

I’m seeing a pattern of “healing” on rich Bahai members. Hmmm, could this be bias at all??????

The Biggest Miracle of All!


HERE WE GO!!!
Of course, it’s a tale of his execution. Bab was shot while hanging from a rope, in the smoke of gunfire he was missing. Added to the tale is a great storm that night, all the gunmen were killed at some point later. All the normal mythos, unverified.


It was said he was later found back at his cell having a conversation he wanted to finish. An English bystander who saw the event also wrote what he saw. Everyone else writing was a member of the religion and adding elements to this grand story. The English writer saw a more realistic version.


These events were witnessed by western journalists. Provided below is one source that is attributed to Sir Justin Sheil, Queen Victoria's Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary in Tehran and written to Lord Palmerston, the British Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, July 22, 1850.[8][9]


The founder of the sect has been executed at Tabreez. He was killed by a volley of musketry, and his death was on the point of giving his religion a lustre which would have largely increased his proselytes. When the smoke and dust cleared away after the volley, Báb was not to be seen, and the populace proclaimed that he had ascended to the skies. The balls had broken the ropes by which he was bound, but he was dragged from the recess where after some search he was discovered and shot. His death, according to the belief of his disciples, will make no difference as Báb must always exist.


— Sir Justin Sheil, [8][1


So this is likely what actually happened. There are no miracles here. It’s too bad he was shot, again, if this was god you would think he would give him some powers or tell the Muslims so that wouldn’t happen. But it probably was not any god involved, just people and claims. These are some seriously bad attempts at creating a miracle worker.


This is all hyperbole and exaggeration. No confirmed miracles for sure.

 

[joelr]

A religion with more followers than the Baha'i Faith, and it's fiction. Yes, a fictional religious story can and does get accepted as truth by some people. Then this thing about it being okay for the Bible to contain some errors... but what about the Quran and the Baha'i writings?

She said that other religions don't have anything to do with the Baha'i Faith? The Baha'i Faith claims that they all came from the same God that they believe in, and that "progressive" revelation is how God gives his "truth" to people... a little at a time, with the new message building on the old. They claim the "social" laws change in each, but the "spiritual" message is the same.

Studying the other religions seems like something that is necessary to check and see if the Baha'i claims are true.

I no longer am geting clear message or direction in the discussion, it's all over the place, none making any sense. One minute it's here is evidence, then if it's not true it's "my opinion", it's completely pointless. And we cycle back to "the messenger is the evidence"
Which a long time ago I said is the same as "the book says it's true" is not a good argument, yet here we are again, the messenger is the evidence.
Then it's you are looking at too much information and you can't see the big picture.
Then I ask what is the big picture and I get nothing. ????

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Why would multiple authors write fiction about a fictional God, over the course of 4000 years?
It just does not make any sense at all.

They do so here on RF, where we see a vast array of believers declaring that their gods are like this or that with insufficient scriptural support.

It's the history of religion and its evolution into trees of denominations of religions. The Protestants declared new doctrine and broke off from the Catholics, then began dividing into assorted Protestant sects differing on whether salvation is foreordained, whether it can be earned by works versus faith alone, whether baptism be by immersion or sprinkling, whether the Sabbath is Saturday or Sunday, and on it goes.

I believe that the resurrection stories serve no useful purpose

They do if they're believed, along with all of the other magic inserted into Jesus' biography such as virgin birth, sinlessness, walking on water, raising the dead, and converting water to wine. How many Christians have you read say regarding Buddha or Mohammad that they are not like Jesus because only Jesus was raised from the dead. THAT's the purpose that story serves.

You are free to do whatever you like .. eat pork .. greedily make excessive profit .. womanise etc. ..but better if you realised now, that G-d's guidance is true, and we are the losers if we ignore it.

I'm here to testify that that is untrue. I have been unencumbered by religion since about 1980, after which I followed no religion's rules, and it's been a good life.

try the ten commandments

Why? There's nothing there. I already don't lie, steal, or murder, and the rest about honoring parents and the Sabbath and avoiding idols and atheism is pointless or wrong.

Apropos of nothing, I have a local friend who will be visiting his orthodox Jewish son, his orthodox wife, and their two young children next week. The trip had to be scheduled to be sure that they are gone by sundown Friday evening as the family observes the Sabbath, during which time lights can't turned on, food cooked, elevators taken, and the like. Not much appeal there to his non-observant, visiting father. Life is so much more reasonable without ideas like that defining it. That's an example of following "God's guidance" as these people understand it, and in my estimation, observing it makes them the losers by NOT ignoring it.

so you are the type of person to "throw the baby away with the bathwater".

There is no baby, assuming that that refers to ideas in scripture coming from a deity and the bathwater is the words of fallible men fit to be disregarded. There's nothing in that book for the atheistic humanist, who decides what is true and just himself.

Christians have got it RIGHT! God exists, and created the universe. Some details are wrong, yes.

You want to gloss over that last comment, but if the scripture contains any error at all, it cannot be said to be the word of an honest, beneficent, infallible god. One must ask how he can decide if any of it is transhuman and if so, what is his rule for segregating the divine ideas from human contamination. Since the believer has no answer for this, he's just guessing which parts to believe and which to reject. The skeptic rejects it all. If it has a few good ideas in it, he won't get them from that source, and he won't consider them good ideas because they come from that source, but because his own conscience judges them good.

 

[joelr]

Snap! You only pick your atheist sources?

Snap, I only pick CRITICAL-HISTORICAL SOURCES and ARCHAEOLOGY. They just happen to all be ATHEIST because they see it's all mythology.

You are not forbidden to provide me with historical scholarship showing I'm wrong?

No .. I do NOT claim that "it's all wrong".
Christians have got it RIGHT! God exists, and created the universe.
Some details are wrong, yes.

..but most Christians I know pray to God .. and believe in righteousness.

AND YET ALLAH SAYS THEY WILL HAVE A TERRIBLE DOOM AND ETERNAL FIRE. Allah does not say, some details are wrong (you cannot prove that) and at least they pray to me. Of course you are more moral than the God in the book so yes, you would say at least they pray to the same God.

Not what the Quran says. The authors, who were Arab, clearly hated the Christians. You cannot get away from what the Quran clearly says.


Unfortunately, that god looks to also be made up by people.

Funny that .. you claim that the OT, NT & Qur'an are a trilogy by many authors written over 1000's of years.

If you are going to call them a trilogy you have to include Mormonism and probably Bahai.

It's known the Bible has many authors.

Now THAT, I cannot believe .. it makes no sense .. why would so many people make it all up?
I would not believe it, if it made no sense. It makes PLENTY of sense.

You have not been listening. The evidence of sense I give, you don't look at, claim it's wrong because it's "non-believers".

You have set up a confirmation bias where you can ignore scholarship and then claim it makes no sense when it's all explained.

First, EVERY NATION from Sumeria, the Mesopotamian nations, Egypt, Rome, Greeks, ALL had mythologies, collections of scriptures, myths, gods who gave laws, often to a man on a mountain with laws on stone. This was how laws were written during this entire period, 7BCE to the Middle Ages.
The Book of Proverbs is 1/3 an Egyptian book. "The third unit, 22:17–24:22, is headed "bend your ear and hear the words of the wise". A large part of this section is a recasting of a second-millennium BCE Egyptian work, the Instruction of Amenemope, and may have reached the Hebrew author(s) through an Aramaic translation. "

Genesis is a reworking of Mesopotamian myths. By Deuteronomy they were making laws. Those were based on similar laws all nations had and also were pretending a god sent them the laws. The Code of Hammurabi was an Egyptain code of laws similar to Deuteronomy but hundreds of laws.
When the Persians invaded they adopted some of those myths and same with the Greeks. This effected ideas about the afterlife and later when Christianity was bigger theologians like Aquinas took Greek , Platonic philosophy and added it to Yahweh. Beyond space and time, all knowing, always exists, never created, immaterial, all Greek ideas.

There were 40 Christian gospels, many fake Epistles, Acts, yes, people actually did make stuff up. Quite a lot. There is as much Hindu literature on the subject.
Holy men take known philosophy, laws, morals and ethics and combine it as a message from whatever deity they worship.


So nothing is made up. People (besides Greeks) did not trust critical thinking until the Enlightment. So all knowledge, law, morals, had to be framed as divine revelation. That is what people did.

If it wasn't Judasim or Jesus it would have been something else. So your confusion about "why would so many people make it all up?" is actually completely wrong. It's like you are applying it to today. Gods were normal business.
You KNOW before Hellenism the Greeks had Zeus and a whole pantheon who ruled, gave laws, they worshipped at temple. The Romans had the Roman pantheon and Mithras who provided the same function that Christainity later did.

There is no suprise here.
The similarities are only in local areas. But over the ENTIRE WORLD people were making up gods and using them to dictate laws to the religious leaders and lead the people to victory (if they won) or if they were defeated they went away. Morals, stories about life, phases of life, are all in mythology. The exact same thing the OT does. Job teaches you life is random and even if you pray and do good you can still lose everything. That is what myths are for.

We just don't need the supernatural gods, devils, angels, wizards, sorcerors and the like. It makes sense as mythology. Which is defined really well by Joseph Campbell in Power of Myth, which is free online.

What I don't understand is why you have an issue with people making up mythology? The Greek pantheon went on for many centuries, had amazing literature, gave gods for people to pray to. Why is that not making sense. The Abrahamic trilogy is no different? Yahweh starts out as a Mesopotamian god with a body, earthly passions, private parts, a wife, a storm god who fights a sea monster? He changed with adding new ideas from new cultures.

The actual Hebrew translation of Genesis 4:1 is from Eve:
I have procreated a man with Yahweh!" This is the literal translation, changed by the church to Yahweh has helped me aquire a man.

Professor Stavrakopoulou translates this, a Hebrew Bible scholar.

Righteousness is not invented .. we have the free-will to follow what we choose.

Yes, evolution gave us a sense of empathy. Not the Bible. We use it to know that slavery, permanent slavery including their children is wrong. Killing all men, women, children, babies and cattle in 6 cities because they have the wrong religion is wrong.

We also know freedom of religion is moral, the religious books don't say that, we say it. Our evolutionary morality works better than Iron Age mythology.

 

[joelr]

Snap! You only pick your atheist sources?

Snap, I only pick CRITICAL-HISTORICAL SOURCES and ARCHAEOLOGY. They just happen to all be ATHEIST because they see it's all mythology.

You are not forbidden to provide me with historical scholarship showing I'm wrong?

No .. I do NOT claim that "it's all wrong".
Christians have got it RIGHT! God exists, and created the universe.
Some details are wrong, yes.

..but most Christians I know pray to God .. and believe in righteousness.

AND YET ALLAH SAYS THEY WILL HAVE A TERRIBLE DOOM AND ETERNAL FIRE. Allah does not say, some details are wrong (you cannot prove that) and at least they pray to me. Of course you are more moral than the God in the book so yes, you would say at least they pray to the same God.

Not what the Quran says. The authors, who were Arab, clearly hated the Christians. You cannot get away from what the Quran clearly says.


Unfortunately, that god looks to also be made up by people.

Funny that .. you claim that the OT, NT & Qur'an are a trilogy by many authors written over 1000's of years.

If you are going to call them a trilogy you have to include Mormonism and probably Bahai.

It's known the Bible has many authors.

Now THAT, I cannot believe .. it makes no sense .. why would so many people make it all up?
I would not believe it, if it made no sense. It makes PLENTY of sense.

You have not been listening. The evidence of sense I give, you don't look at, claim it's wrong because it's "non-believers".

You have set up a confirmation bias where you can ignore scholarship and then claim it makes no sense when it's all explained. But you ignored it, so it cannot make sense if ignored?

First, EVERY NATION from Sumeria, the Mesopotamian nations, Egypt, Rome, Greeks, ALL had mythologies, collections of scriptures, myths, gods who gave laws, often to a man on a mountain with laws on stone. This was how laws were written during this entire period, 7BCE to the Middle Ages.
The Book of Proverbs is 1/3 an Egyptian book. "The third unit, 22:17–24:22, is headed "bend your ear and hear the words of the wise". A large part of this section is a recasting of a second-millennium BCE Egyptian work, the Instruction of Amenemope, and may have reached the Hebrew author(s) through an Aramaic translation. "

Genesis is a reworking of Mesopotamian myths. By Deuteronomy they were making laws. Those were based on similar laws all nations had and also were pretending a god sent them the laws. The Code of Hammurabi was an Egyptain code of laws similar to Deuteronomy but hundreds of laws.
When the Persians invaded they adopted some of those myths and same with the Greeks. This effected ideas about the afterlife and later when Christianity was bigger theologians like Aquinas took Greek , Platonic philosophy and added it to Yahweh. Beyond space and time, all knowing, always exists, never created, immaterial, all Greek ideas.

There were 40 Christian gospels, many fake Epistles, Acts, yes, people actually did make stuff up. Quite a lot. There is as much Hindu literature on the subject.
Holy men take known philosophy, laws, morals and ethics and combine it as a message from whatever deity they worship.


So nothing is made up. People (besides Greeks) did not trust critical thinking until the Enlightment. So all knowledge, law, morals, had to be framed as divine revelation. That is what people did.

If it wasn't Judasim or Jesus it would have been something else. So your confusion about "why would so many people make it all up?" is actually completely wrong. It's like you are applying it to today. Gods were normal business.
You KNOW before Hellenism the Greeks had Zeus and a whole pantheon who ruled, gave laws, they worshipped at temple. The Romans had the Roman pantheon and Mithras who provided the same function that Christainity later did.

There is no suprise here.
The similarities are only in local areas. But over the ENTIRE WORLD people were making up gods and using them to dictate laws to the religious leaders and lead the people to victory (if they won) or if they were defeated they went away. Morals, stories about life, phases of life, are all in mythology. The exact same thing the OT does. Job teaches you life is random and even if you pray and do good you can still lose everything. That is what myths are for.

We just don't need the supernatural gods, devils, angels, wizards, sorcerors and the like. It makes sense as mythology. Which is defined really well by Joseph Campbell in Power of Myth, which is free online.

What I don't understand is why you have an issue with people making up mythology? The Greek pantheon went on for many centuries, had amazing literature, gave gods for people to pray to. Why is that not making sense. The Abrahamic trilogy is no different? Yahweh starts out as a Mesopotamian god with a body, earthly passions, private parts, a wife, a storm god who fights a sea monster? He changed with adding new ideas from new cultures.

The actual Hebrew translation of Genesis 4:1 is from Eve:
I have procreated a man with Yahweh!" This is the literal translation, changed by the church to Yahweh has helped me aquire a man.

Professor Stavrakopoulou translates this, a Hebrew Bible scholar.

So Yahweh was just like a typical deity in that time.

The gods are made up. But the laws are real, the wisdom, everything, that is how things were taught. AND people did not know science, they thought everything was from a deity. Weather, illness, bad crops, they thought devils were sickness. So worship was normal. If you didn't have a cultural religion people would just join another nearby religion. There was no space, just heavenly realms where deities lived.

My question is why wouldn't we have mythology in those times?

We even have evidence the Quran was a work in progress which makes total sense. The Arabs knew the success of Christianity and wanted their take. A group took a shot, made a back story and it stuck. Same thing with Mormonism, which has millions of members. Totally made up.

Righteousness is not invented .. we have the free-will to follow what we choose.

Yes, evolution gave us a sense of empathy. Not the Bible. We use it to know that slavery, permanent slavery including their children is wrong. Killing all men, women, children, babies and cattle in 6 cities because they have the wrong religion is wrong.

We also know freedom of religion is moral, the religious books don't say that, we say it. Our evolutionary morality works better than Iron Age mythology.

 

[Bthoth]

We also know freedom of religion is moral, the religious books don't say that, we say it. Our evolutionary morality works better than Iron Age mythology.

That is fair and honest rational.

 

[muhammad_isa]

There's nothing in that book for the atheistic humanist, who decides what is true and just himself.

Yes .. and that is what concerns me .. people all follow different ideologies, and think they're right.
China springs to mind..

Since the believer has no answer for this, he's just guessing which parts to believe and which to reject..

It's more than a guess .. birds of a feather, flock together.

 

[muhammad_isa]

We also know freedom of religion is moral, the religious books don't say that..

They do .. but you only want to read/quote the bits that you dislike.

 

[Trailblazer]

You haven't demonstrated a book is truth?

You cannot call it truth until it is demonstrated.

@muhammad_isa can call it whatever he wants to. He does not have to demonstrate anything to you or to anyone else.

First there is no evidence any Christian can know their religion is wrong. It's all anecdotal and 2nd hand evidence.

There is also no evidence that YOU can know their religion is wrong.
All you have is a personal opinion.

But these people don't want eternal doom, so it's the god. Who is a moral monster.

God is only a moral monster in your personal opinion.
God is not subject to morality at all. Only humans are subject to morality.

Morality is the belief that some behaviour is right and acceptable and that other behaviour is wrong. ... A morality is a system of principles and values concerning people's behaviour, which is generally accepted by a society or by a particular group of people.
Morality definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

In my opinion (belief) God is all-good, so God cannot be bad or evil.

What would your loved ones have to do to send them to eternal fire?

There is no reason to believe that anyone is going to an eternal fire. that is only a 2nd century understanding of the Bible. We know better now.

If that God were real he 100% enjoys humans at war.

God allows people to war because God allows free will but that doesn't mean that God enjoys humans at war.
Nobody can ever know what God enjoys unless it is written in scriptures.

So he is a total monster.

Only in your personal opinion.

 

[Trailblazer]

No I was not "caught up" or in a "morass of details". I was looking at evidence. Which is what everyone, including you, do before believing something. I do not care if you read his writings and thought you had a flash of insight. Your latest attempt here is to gaslight my investigations into a negative light. Manipulative, but ineffective at making any real point.

I have no desire to gaslight you but I see what I see. I see you caught up in a "morass of details". That is your choice just as it is my choice not to get bogged down into details.

In my opinion you can't see the forest for the trees.

idiom. US. : to not understand or appreciate a larger situation, problem, etc., because one is considering only a few parts of it.

Not see the forest for the trees - Merriam-Webster​

Yes, a form of apologetics just used by someone else, pure denial. Every prophecy was literally wrong.

Prophecy in 1870 - "The Missing link will never be found" (a common belief among people at that time, so he was hedging his bets)

Current science -
"
In a new breakthrough, scientists have confirmed a key “missing link” in the human family tree that helps explain the evolution of upright apes into early humans.

The findings put an end to a decade-long debate and confirm that early humans were in fact still swinging from trees less than 2 million years ago.

Scientists identified the new “family tree member” Australopithecus sediba using fossils that were actually found 10 years ago at a site in Malapa, South Africa, known as the “Cradle of Humankind.” But until now, it had not been clear whether or not the fossils belonged to an already known species."

More trees....

Your latest attempt here is just dishonest denial and ineffective at making any real point.

That is what I see you doing, dishonest denial, lost in the forest and ineffective at making any real point.

Cool, please post some scripture from Bahai with any modern philosophy.

Religion is not philosophy.

Comparing Islam And Baha ' I And Islam
The similarities of these two religions are uncanny.

Duh... must be because they came from the SAME GOD.

They are so closely related, and the differences seem so miniscule, at least to the eye of an outsider looking in. When it come to the prayer life of members of the two religions, they are almost identical. They both pray multiple times a day, prayer is obligatory for both, there are movements and gestures to go along with the prayers, the prayers are done facing a certain location, either Mecca or Qiblih, and they are both rooted from the same region in the world. In all reality the only major difference causing these two religions to tear each other apart, is what they believe about the manifestation of Allah. Other than that they are both monotheistic, follow teachings from the prophet Mohammad, and have a regulated form of prayer for members of the religion to follow.

That was a response to - "Then you propose that horribly wrong prophecies, lack of science knowledge, and all the other issues don't matter????"

I'll get back to this.

More trees.

Translation, "I cannot explain" I'm asking why cult tactics are being used. The tactics are attempting to create a misdirection that investigating facts is bad. Looking at the actual prophecies. You posted a link to a book with all the prophecies as evidence way back. Then I look at all of them and debunk them, suddenly it's wrong to not see the "big picture". The goalpost moving is insane.
Every prophecy is incorrect. There is no modern philosophy in the scripture, he uses run-on endless praise language to say mostly nothing. HE knows nothing beyond what a human would know. These are serious issues. But to raise them brings this response - "there is nothing to explain", or "see the big picture".....

I ask for the big picture and I get a run-around that again there is nothing to explain. Yet this idea about seeing the big picture and ignoring the problems is all I asked about. Suddenly it's "my opinion" and "nothing to explain". Total goal post moving, word salad, cluster mess.

More blah, blah, blah. I don't even read it anymore, but maybe you can impress some readers.

Except we can see he is copying the Bible and Quran.

Now you are accusing Baha'u'llah of plagiarism.
No, you cannot see that, you can only believe that, just as I believe that Baha'u'llah received a NEW revelation from God.

weird strawman out of nowhere?

"I do not need a pass from you to believe what I believe" is not a strawman. I suggest you learn your fallacies.

See the gaslighting? The prophecies are not wrong in an "opinion". He said cancer would be found to be communicable.
He said Newtons alchemy would be common. At that time it was thought that that was going to happen. We would be able to easily take a metal and transform it into gold. There were ideas then about cancer being transmitted like a cold.

What are the odds that he was taking hings that were expected to happen withing 20 years and predicting they would happen? Very good odds. They did not, he was wrong and he had no god whispering in his ear. Because if he did the god would say, "everything is made of atoms, atoms have a particle in the middle and a charged particle orbiting. They make all the elements. Light has a speed limit. Particles are waves and particles. The galaxy is one of billions and the universe is expanding. And so on. It wouldn't be the things that people already expected, it would be the things we had not even thought of because we couldn't. Only God would be able to tell us.

A number in pi we haven't calculated. It WAS THE SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTION.
He got ALL of his scientific predictions wrong. HE WAS MAKING THEM UP.

This is all tap dancing to desperately try to make this line of thinking wrong. What a cult will do. "don't think too much?"

More blah, blah, blah. I don't even read it anymore, but maybe you can impress some readers.

To someone who ignores all the literally wrong prophecies. Ignores the lack of writing and philosophy skills. Ignores the lack of supernatural abilities or any other type of evidence, nothing new even though the revelations are supposed to be "progressive", these are not.

To someone who thinks evidence is literally "a guy claims to be a messenger". That's it. He claimed it, so it must be real.

Yes, I bet it makes lots of sense. Good luck with that.

More blah, blah, blah. I don't even read it anymore, but maybe you can impress some readers.

Which also means Jesus in AU, who currently has a ministry, has evidence. HE IS THE EVIDENCE!

You can bet your bottom dollar that Jesus is EVIDENCE that God exists.

Looks like Mormonism is also true because the MESSENGER (Joseph Smith) IS THE EVIDENCE.

Joseph Smith was not a Messenger of God so he is not evidence of God.

Cargo Cults would also be true because the shaman messenger who had divine revelations from the communication pole left by the U.S. Navy, IS THE EVIDENCE!!!

Wow, so much is true I had no idea it was so easy?

Oh the prophecies, I'll re-post them in that case.

"No mising link", not wrong? We found it. Then found more, but "not wrong".

So if you just use denial hard enough does something become true?

Sure, all you need is any evidence at all?

Oh wow, ok, SO.....when it comes to your beliefs, it's your business. But MY beliefs, you sure have a lot to say about.

But how can Mormonism not be true when they also have a messenger, which is your evidence?

1) I'm not judging Bahai, I'm looking at the evidence, true things would not be afraid of having evidence examined.

2)The evidence already suggests no God is real, all Gods are mythology, people do make up revelations or are delusional. The afterlife is a product of Greek mythology. That is true for all religions, nothing special to Bahai. But a supernatural claim must be evaluated by the evidence, for those who care about what is actually true.

3) Gaslighting my evaluation into a "judgment that rolls off a duck's back" is manipulative and dishonest. Having to resort to this over and over shows you are probably clinging to something not real.

4)I already told you I don't care what you believe. I never said stop believing. Believe in whatever you like. If you openly claim it's real, on a public debate forum I will challenge the assertions and the evidence.

5) Calling a mere debate " All your judging ", is further gaslighting, especially ON A PUBLIC DEBATE FORUM. And is truly absurd. If you cannot handle a simple discussion about truth what are you doing here?

More blah, blah, blah. I don't even read it anymore, but maybe you can impress some readers.

 

[Trailblazer]

An answer to this claim - "He did no supernatural things or had no supernatural power or knowledge, something all revelation people have or at least their god does it for them to get things started."

Personal opinion, not fact

Please do not link to a book. Tell me ONE supernatural thing, power or knowledge, that can be confirmed to be supernatural, that he did. Start with one.

Supernatural things cannot be confirmed unless you were the one who witnessed them.

My posts are full of evidence against Judaism. Anyone can study the scholarship. God: An Anatomy is a great place to start by Fransesca Strak.....

No, your posts are full of personal opinions against Judaism.
I suggest you learn the difference between a personal opinion and a fact.

There are many sources that point out the similarities between Bahai and Islam, not hard to find. Every scripture that has been posted I gave a similar verse from the Quran or Bible. Keep posting them, I will keep showing you similarities. Where is this "progressive revelation"????????

The progressive revelation is in what Baha'u'llah revealed that is NEW, the new message and the new social teachings and laws.

Why do you repeat the same non-evidence over and over?
Why do you continue to deny prophecies are wrong?
Why do you keep repeating the same points, despite that they have been debunked?
Why do you keep posting the same useless books over and over?
why do you quote from a man who claims to be a prophet without evidence or saying anything new?
why do you keep pretending god is already demonstrated and your religion is the ultimate truth without evidence?

Straw man. I am not doing any of those things.
You are the one who is doing those things so that is projection.

You debunked nothing.

Why did Shoghi Effendi think he needed to sound like Shakespeare?

Shoghi Effendi went to England to study English so He could better translate the Writings of Baha'u'llah from Persian and Arabic into English.

From his studies Shoghi Effendi determined that King James English was the best form to portray Persian and Arabic to English speakers.

Apparently Persian and Arabic have a form of poetic prose that is hard to portray to English speakers. King James English must in a small way convey some of that poetic prose experienced by Persian and Arabic speakers.

Shoghi Effendi said that the future may see different translations.

I could leave it there except I actually have an argument, so I cannot.

Please demonstrate something in that scripture that is NEW.

If it's "new" why is almost all of it already said in the Quran and Bible? Just because he changes the wording and adds flare doesn't make it new?

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas (the Book of Laws) is new.
The message of world unity is also new.
The social teachings are new.
The list goes non, but I am not going to post all of the Writings of Baha'u'llah just to prove something to you.

where is the new philosophy?

Religion is not philosophy so that is the fallacy of false equivalence.

Muhammad mostly reworked the OT.

Prove it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Answer to: "And I found his prophecies are all wrong. "
Cool, I can re-post it. From the book you link to, all prophecies,

Sorry, these are not prophecies made by Baha'u'llah. They are one man's interpretation of those prophecies from the following book.

The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

 

[Trailblazer]

I no longer am geting clear message or direction in the discussion, it's all over the place, none making any sense.

And that is because YOU are all over the place, lost in the forest.

 

[Trailblazer]

Snap, I only pick CRITICAL-HISTORICAL SOURCES and ARCHAEOLOGY. They just happen to all be ATHEIST because they see it's all mythology.

And as such they are biased sources.
They BELIEVE it is all mythology but they do not KNOW that.

 

[Trailblazer]

They do so here on RF, where we see a vast array of believers declaring that their gods are like this or that with insufficient scriptural support.

It's the history of religion and its evolution into trees of denominations of religions. The Protestants declared new doctrine and broke off from the Catholics, then began dividing into assorted Protestant sects differing on whether salvation is foreordained, whether it can be earned by works versus faith alone, whether baptism be by immersion or sprinkling, whether the Sabbath is Saturday or Sunday, and on it goes.

Yes, here on RF we see a vast array of believers declaring that their gods are like this or that but they usually provide scriptural support.

My question regarding the Bible was: Why would multiple authors write fiction about a fictional God, over the course of 4000 years?

They do if they're believed, along with all of the other magic inserted into Jesus' biography such as virgin birth, sinlessness, walking on water, raising the dead, and converting water to wine. How many Christians have you read say regarding Buddha or Mohammad that they are not like Jesus because only Jesus was raised from the dead. THAT's the purpose that story serves.

Good point! The resurrection story serves a purpose for Christians so that they can claim only Jesus was raised from the dead and thus Christianity is superior to all the other religions. The same applies to the virgin birth, sinlessness, walking on water, raising the dead, and converting water to wine.

The problem is that these were just stories written by men and there is no evidence that any of these are actually true.