Can we compromise on abortion?

[Subduction Zone]

Actually, it started with Bush Jr. He was not a popular choice for governor or president, and could not win. So his campaign manager Karl Rove made him out to be a Christian fundamentalist and began putting flyers on cars in church parking lots claiming that Bush's opponent Ann Richards was a lesbian, and later that John McCain was fathering black babies while his wife was dying of cancer. All lies aimed at stirring up the religious bigotry of southern Christians to get them out to vote against the sinners, by voting for Bush.

Rove was hailed by the Republican Party as a "genius" for all this BS and the Republican Party has been pandering to those bigoted, ignorant Christian fundamentalists ever since. Mostly by never compromising on anything they want. As that plays really well in the Bible Belt.

From what I have found, even from more liberal sources, is that the whisper campaign was alleged only. And it was not that Richards was a lesbian, but that she appointed homosexuals to office:


" In 1994, when Bush ran against Democratic Gov. Ann Richards in Texas, a whisper campaign began in East Texas that Richards had appointed gays and lesbians to state positions, which was true. The issue got little notice until Bush's East Texas campaign chairman accused the governor of naming "avowed and activist homosexuals" to high offices. (taken from here). These whisper campaigns are linked to Karl Rove, who worked for Bush and who had even been fired by Republican State Victory Committee for his dirty campaign tricks. Many websites say this; here is one, a review of two books."

Ethics: campaign attacks

This website outlines how the Bush administration has lied, misled, misused science, has been secretive, and has divided this country. It is not the administration's policies that are at fault, it is the way they have run the government.

www.cs.cornell.edu

And mentioned here as being alleged as well:

TV Review: ‘All About Ann: Governor Richards of the Lone Star State’

Ann Richards is best remembered for her skewering of George H.W. Bush at the 1988 Democratic National Convention (“Poor George. He was born with a silver foot in his mouth”), and later — somewhat poetically — for losing the Texas governorship to Bush’s son. “All About Ann: Governor Richards of...

variety.com

It appears that the facts have become distorted with time. And Bush did not just eke out a victory. He won by a landslide so I doubt if the whisper campaign is what got him in.

 

[Shaul]

That’s a great headline but here on the ground miscarrying women are being told to “come back when you get an infection “ because doctors are afraid of being prosecuted; and doctors are telling women the law is unclear.

Yes, by incompetents. Apocryphal memes don't change the facts. It is a fact that in Texas ectopic pregnancy terminations are not illegal.

 

[Orbit]

Yes, by incompetents. Apocryphal memes don't change the facts. It is a fact that in Texas ectopic pregnancy terminations are not illegal.

This is from personal experience, not "apocryphal memes". I live 10 miles from the TX border and have friends who are pregnant. The situation is dire.

 

[Shaul]

They're still abortions. Abortion ends any pregnancy, including ones which can't come to full term or even ones where the zygote or fetus has died and failed to miscarry (purge pregnancy tissue). That the law makes an exception for them (with vague language coming from a bunch of stupid theocrat politicians rather than doctors) doesn't change what it is.

And that sort of butchered legal trespass into medical scope of practice is what got people like Savita Halappanavar killed.

No, they are not abortions. By law a termination of an ectopic pregnancy is defined to NOT be an abortion. Your personal definitions are not authoritative. The legislature has made the official authoritative definition. IOW you are flat out wrong.

 

[Orbit]

No, they are not abortions. By law a termination of an ectopic pregnancy is defined to NOT be an abortion. Your personal definitions are not authoritative. The legislature has made the official authoritative definition. IOW you are flat out wrong.

Tell that to the doctors who are afraid to treat them because of TX's draconian laws.

 

[Shaul]

This is from personal experience, not "apocryphal memes". I live 10 miles from the TX border and have friends who are pregnant. The situation is dire.

Actually that is precisely an apocryphal account.

 

[metis]

This is from personal experience, not "apocryphal memes". I live 10 miles from the TX border and have friends who are pregnant. The situation is dire.

Yep. And isn't it "something" that so many Pubs who say they are "conservatives" want the government [state and/or federal] to make a woman's decision that involves her own body?

 

[Shaul]

Tell that to the doctors who are afraid to treat them because of TX's draconian laws.

Send them my way. Do you know many incompetent doctors?

 

[Orbit]

Actually that is precisely an apocryphal account.

To you, maybe, not to me. I'm living it; my friends are living it.

 

[Orbit]

Send them my way. Do you know many incompetent doctors?

You can blithely ignore the reality of the draconian laws. Pregnant women can't.

 

[Shaul]

To you, maybe, not to me. I'm living it; my friends are living it.

Basically you are grudgingly admitting that Texas law allows for treatment of ectopic pregnancies. So the original complaint is invalid. Pro-life advocates aren't to blame if some doctors don't know the actual law.

 

[Shaul]

You can blithely ignore the reality of the draconian laws. Pregnant women can't.

What "draconian laws"? Ectopic pregnancy terminations are legal. Even in Texas.

 

[Orbit]

Basically you are grudgingly admitting that Texas law allows for treatment of ectopic pregnancies. So the original complaint is invalid. Pro-life advocates aren't to blame if some doctors don't know the actual law.

Uh, no. The law is so bad, vague, and draconian that doctors are afraid of liability. That's on the activists who pushed a bad law.

 

[Shaul]

Uh, no. The law is so bad, vague, and draconian that doctors are afraid of liability. That's on the activists who pushed a bad law.

The law is quite clear. If a doctor can't comprehend it they should seek clarification or find a new career. Texas abortion law states:

“Abortion” is defined in section 245.002(1) of the Health and Safety Code as “the act of using or prescribing an instrument, a drug, a medicine, or any other substance, device, or means with the intent to cause the death of an unborn child of a woman known to be pregnant. The term does not include birth control devices or oral contraceptives.” The term “abortion” in Texas law does not apply when these acts are done to “(A) save the life or preserve the health of an unborn child; (B) remove a dead, unborn child whose death was caused by spontaneous abortion; or (C) remove an ectopic pregnancy.” Tex. Health & Safety Code § 245.002(1)(A)–(C).

There is no part that isn't clear regarding ectopic pregnancies.

 

[PureX]

From what I have found, even from more liberal sources, is that the whisper campaign was alleged only. And it was not that Richards was a lesbian, but that she appointed homosexuals to office:


" In 1994, when Bush ran against Democratic Gov. Ann Richards in Texas, a whisper campaign began in East Texas that Richards had appointed gays and lesbians to state positions, which was true. The issue got little notice until Bush's East Texas campaign chairman accused the governor of naming "avowed and activist homosexuals" to high offices. (taken from here). These whisper campaigns are linked to Karl Rove, who worked for Bush and who had even been fired by Republican State Victory Committee for his dirty campaign tricks. Many websites say this; here is one, a review of two books."

Ethics: campaign attacks

This website outlines how the Bush administration has lied, misled, misused science, has been secretive, and has divided this country. It is not the administration's policies that are at fault, it is the way they have run the government.

www.cs.cornell.edu

And mentioned here as being alleged as well:

TV Review: ‘All About Ann: Governor Richards of the Lone Star State’

Ann Richards is best remembered for her skewering of George H.W. Bush at the 1988 Democratic National Convention (“Poor George. He was born with a silver foot in his mouth”), and later — somewhat poetically — for losing the Texas governorship to Bush’s son. “All About Ann: Governor Richards of...

variety.com

It appears that the facts have become distorted with time. And Bush did not just eke out a victory. He won by a landslide so I doubt if the whisper campaign is what got him in.

Rove routinely used gay fear-mongering, greatly exaggerated claims about late term abortions, and outright character assassination to stir up the vitriol of the Righteous Right against his candidate's opponents. And it worked. That made him a "genius" in the eyes of his party. And they are still following his model.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Rove routinely use gay fear-mongering, greatly exaggerated claims about late term abortions, and outright character assassination to stir up the vitriol of the Righteous Right against his candidate's opponents. That made him a "genius" in the eyes of his party. And they are still following his model.

I don't doubt that. I was merely fact checking the "Ann Richards is lesbian" claim.

I found a bit of distortion on the Wikipedia article about her too. She did sign a bill that made sodomy illegal in Texas. But she did so grudgingly. The bill was written to replace the old anti-sodomy laws and was not as severe. She had tried to get rid of the sodomy clause altogether, but this is Texas that we are talking about. If she vetoed it the old harsher bill would have still been in effect. So some Republican distorters will point out that she signed a bill that outlawed sodomy. It is true but very misleading.

 

[crossfire]

An ever increasing proportion of the American people are turning against their moral bullying and bigoted extremism. Especially young people. The time of their reckoning is coming. Even their republican toadies in government are going to have to turn against them soon, or lose their seats. The momentary rise of the right wing extremist is coming to an end.

Especially when it is young people, specifically young women, who are the target of their bullying.

 

[crossfire]

No, they are not abortions. By law a termination of an ectopic pregnancy is defined to NOT be an abortion. Your personal definitions are not authoritative. The legislature has made the official authoritative definition. IOW you are flat out wrong.

That is the medical term. Politicians are now redefining medical and scientific terms, even though they are not doctors or scientists.

 

[crossfire]

Actually that is precisely an apocryphal account.

Is that because pregnant women can't be trusted?

 

[Shaul]

That is the medical term. Politicians are now redefining medical and scientific terms, even though they are not doctors or scientists.

It is the legal term. The Law applies to judicial, medical, scientific and every other sphere of human endeavor. The Legislators created the law, not "politicians". They did so after due consideration and including input from the best in the medical community. No one is "redefining" anything.

The bottom line is that the law is quite clear in Texas. Ectopic pregnancy termination is not abortion. You desperately want to use ectopic pregnancy as a political wedge to promote abortions. But that has no legs since ectopic pregnancy termination was and is legal.