Can we prove or disprove the claims of any Messenger of God?

[Jim]

Like with the story of Jesus in the Gospels, the story is presented as if it really happened and most Christians believe it as actual historical events. If they are fictional events and stories, then why follow the teachings?

Um, maybe because of the good it might do to follow them?

 

[Jim]

Since you are learning about following the Baha'i Faith, how are you dealing with that problem?

Mostly just by ignoring it, and trying to learn not to do it myself, along with all the other things I'm doing to try to help change popular attitudes and behavior in Internet discussions in general.

 

[Jumi]

I am curious. You once taught Christianity in schools including prophecy. You clearly don't feel the same way anymore. Personal question that you should only answer if you're comfortable, but what changed?

I was taught the more common prophecies, I wasn't a teacher. They never made sense to me as they seemed to be interpretations after the fact and needed a lot of work to get the interpretation. They were never obvious or accurate. The ones about the future were similarly ambiguous.

So that much hasn't changed in my views on prophecy.

 

[Anthem]

Like the Russians have always demonstrated, all proofs can be called null at any time for any reason with or without excuse. So I say no to the thread title and definitely yes to the poll question.

 

[stvdv]

I've definitely changed...more Abrahamic so I suppose more condescending and less empathetic lol.

God to me is most "empathetic". He tells me things (physical health) in advance and when He is really talkative He even tells me how to deal with it or how to avoid it.

My Guru is the closest "unconditional Loving person I have met". Never was He condescending to me. And full of empathy.

Abraham was a man of God. So your above line sounds so very strange to me. Being a man of God I would expect "NOT condescending FULL empathetic"

So your "change" you describe sounds more to me like "Less Abrahamic". Or do I miss something here? Just trying to understand correctly.

Okay, now I see the word "lol", I missed that part when writing. I post it anyway "lol".

 

[Marcion]

In the final analysis any faith comes down to how we live our lives, does it not? If faith has no practice then what is the point?

Indeed, but like any tantric type of master Jesus stresses this point that you have to really implement the teachings. That is not what most fundamentalist christians will say, they will say that all that matters is that you believe (only) in Christ.

So for you Dharma is like this unspoken universal law?

Dharma is for everyone with a human body, also for you. And it does not depend on which "religion" or even spiritual path you are on. But is helps to be on one that is good at helping you follow your human Dharma, it will stimulate you to follow your Dharma properly.

 

[Marcion]

Baha'is have something about the Adamic cycle having just ended with the coming of the Baha'i Era. I don't see how any religion from India fits into that cycle. I don't remember when they said it started, but the Bible puts Adam at about the same time you're saying Lord Shiva lived. But I've never heard any mention of Shiva in the Baha'i Faith.

Shiva was the first of the great spiritual Teachers, actually it was He who introduced the proper marriage system which made fathers more responsible for their offspring at the time when the matriarchal system was changing into the patriarchal system.

Adam is a mythical image representing the "first human".
Nowadays we see the Australopithecines as our distant ancestors and no longer believe in such myths.

 

[Dawnofhope]

God to me is most "empathetic". He tells me things (physical health) in advance and when He is really talkative He even tells me how to deal with it or how to avoid it.

My Guru is the closest "unconditional Loving person I have met". Never was He condescending to me. And full of empathy.

Abraham was a man of God. So your above line sounds so very strange to me. Being a man of God I would expect "NOT condescending FULL empathetic"

So your "change" you describe sounds more to me like "Less Abrahamic". Or do I miss something here? Just trying to understand correctly.

Okay, now I see the word "lol", I missed that part when writing. I post it anyway "lol".

I try and not take myself to seriously.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Do Baha'i's worship Allah as Muslims do? Does your god have a name?

Muslims believe there is One God (Allah - Arabic for God, Jehovah - Hebrew name for God).

Allah is the God who has sent all the prophets with special emphasis on Moses and Jesus through whom God revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

Therefore Allah (God) is the All-Knowing. You might like to consider how God is described in the Qur'an.

"He is God; there is no god but He, He is the Knower of the unseen and the visible; He is the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate. He is God, there is no God but He. He is the King, the All-Holy, the All-Peace, the Guardian of Faith, the All-Preserver, the All-Mighty, the All-Compeller, the All-Sublime. Glory be to God, above that they associate! He is God the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. All that is in the heavens and the earth magnifies Him; He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." (Quran 59:22-24)

"There is no god but He, the Living, the Everlasting. Slumber seizes Him not, neither sleep; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that shall intercede with Him save by His leave? He knows what lies before them and what is after them, and they comprehend not anything of His knowledge save such as He wills. His throne comprises the heavens and earth; the preserving of them oppresses Him not; He is the All-High, the All-Glorious." (Quran 2:255)

What has Baha'u'llah said of God?

Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein, He, through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will, chose to confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to love Him—a capacity that must needs be regarded as the generating impulse and the primary purpose underlying the whole of creation…Upon the inmost reality of each and every created thing He hath shed the light of one of His names, and made it a recipient of the glory of one of His attributes. Upon the reality of man, however, He hath focused the radiance of all of His names and attributes, and made it a mirror of His own Self. Alone of all created things man hath been singled out for so great a favor, so enduring a bounty.

(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, XXVII)

All-praise to the unity of God, and all-honour to Him, the sovereign Lord, the incomparable and all-glorious Ruler of the universe, Who, out of utter nothingness, hath created the reality of all things, Who, from naught, hath brought into being the most refined and subtle elements of His creation, and Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction, hath received them into His kingdom of incorruptible glory. Nothing short of His all-encompassing grace, His all-pervading mercy, could have possibly achieved it.

God in the Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia

I will leave that to you. If you wish to pursue the subject I will contribute. You know my views already.

Thanks again for contributing Deeje. Another time perhaps.

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't have a problem with that. Its when a religion causes harm the closer scrutiny is called for.

Indeed, but who is to judge what harm is? Some folks merely think that practicing another faith outside their own is causing that person harm. I think you and I agree that harm relates mostly to violence or killing. I would include exploitation.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm confused now about what this thread is all about for you. You've said more than once that what matters to you is how people decide to leave or join a religion. Now you're talking about people people becoming what you call "Christian fundamentalists." Whatever you mean by "becoming Christian fundamentalists," the only way I see that it would have anything to do with the credentials or authenticity of a spiritual teacher is that they might have been influenced in their decision by some Christian evangelist.

You've said repeatedly that what matters to you is how people decide to leave or join a religion. Is that what you really want to discuss? The only example you've given is not about leaving or joining a religion. It's about joining a faction of Christianity, or identifying with one. Does that mean that what you're really talking about is how people decide to leave or join a religious faction or alliance, or identify with one?

The main purpose of this thread for me is about what is just and fair in our assessment of religion.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 3-4

I think that for many people, the decision to join a religious alliance, or identify with one, has nothing to do, at least consciously, with anyone's credentials or authenticity. Is the discussion you want to have, limited to credentials and authenticity, or is it a more general question about how people decide to leave or join a religious community or faction, or identify with one, whether or not it depends any decision about anyone's credentials or authenticity, which might rarely be the case. I think that more often it's the other way around. I think that more often, the desire to join a community or alliance, or identify with one, comes first, then a person's way of thinking changes to accommodate popular thinking in that community or alliance.

So what are our thought processes as we consider a faith other than our own? How do we respond to diversity of religion? If we are searching what are we looking for? Should we reassess our faith once have chosen to that path and if so, how? What should we consider if we are leaving a faith and where we go from here?

Of course there are many unconscious forces at work but is that the best way to live? Shouldn't we be making conscious choices and what are the risks if we do not? What does a good and a bad decision look like when we make choices about which faith?

These are all questions that reflect my personal journey. Its helpful to hear the reflections of others.

Originally my only reason for wanting to join the Baha'i Faith was to be able to contribute to the Baha'I Fund, because I liked what I thought Baha'is were doing. At that time I saw more harm than good in organized religion, but I liked what I thought the Baha'is were doing enough to make it worth the trouble for me to join the Baha'i community. One thing that kept me from joining is that I saw responsibilities in it that I didn't think I would fulfill very well. Another thing was that I didn't believe everything I saw Baha'u'llah saying about Manifestations of God, and Himself as one of them. Finally I joined, impulsively, after I saw for myself a glimpse of the reality of what He says about the oneness of the prophets. Many times since then I've reviewed my reasons for being a member, and for many years, my only reason has been because I think I can better serve Baha'u'llah's purposes that way.

Thanks for sharing. That's really all I wanted. To have a sense of the journey for another. I have an incredibly busy life with little time to reflect. This forum seems like a safe place for me to do that for now. I enjoy the conversations with others along the way. I've been a Baha'i for nearly 30 years.

When Ahmad went to visit Baha'u'llah in Adrianople, Baha'u'llah had already departed. However, He left Ahmad with a tablet that He asked Him to recite morning and evening. It left Ahmad in no doubt as to what he should be doing. He returned to Persian and taught the Faith of God.

Baha'i Stories: The story of the Tablet of Ahmad – by Hand of the Cause Abu’l-Qasim Faizi

 

[Vinayaka]

Shiva was the first of the great spiritual Teachers, actually it was He who introduced the proper marriage system which made fathers more responsible for their offspring at the time when the matriarchal system was changing into the patriarchal system.

Just to clarify for any readers, this is not at all the way Saivite Hindus view Siva. Not at all. Marcion's group and school is very rare, so has a unique view on it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I have some more thoughts about this discussion, after thinking about it some more.

Then you have my attention and its good to have someone to reflect with. I do need to ask though, are you considering the questions in the OP or questioning the motivation of the one who created the OP (me)? Perhaps both? I have this sense that I trouble you in some way. Do you know what I mean?

1. You've said repeatedly that what really matters is how people choose to leave or join a religion, and from your example of people becoming "Christian fundamentalists," it looks to me like that includes choosing to leave or join a religious faction.

I'm interesting in our conscious thought processes as we consider our allegiances to a religion or another.

2. Your list of proofs looks to me like a list of Baha'i beliefs about Manifestations of God, and it uses Baha'i terminology, which makes it inevitable that it will lead to a discussion about the Baha'i Faith.

I am a Baha'i so the language used in the OP reflects who I am and how I think. I make no apology for that. But I'm not angling for a discussion about the Baha'i Faith. The Baha'i Faith is just one religion or worldview amidst many to discuss. We're talking about the Baha'i Faith now because you have asked me about it.

3. Discussing proofs of the credentials and authenticity of religious leaders, in a context of people leaving or joining a religious faction or community, looks to me like an invitation for people to parade the superiority of their religions or ways of thinking over all others. The ones who make exclusive claims for some religious leader will be discussing whatever proofs they think work best for that purpose, and those who don't will be trumpeting that as proof of the wider inclusiveness of their ways of thinking.

These are all important aspects and considerations in interfaith dialogue.

This is my perverse sense of humour so please don't take it personally.

Hello Jim, my name is Adrian. Pleased to met you. I see in that little box on the right hand corner that you are a Baha'i. I'm sorry to hear that. Even though you're obviously a fool, I'll say a few nice things about you...I like the colour of your hair...real nice...good to have the small talk out the way...great...lets get right to it. You're following a false religion, you hear me....FALSE and I just can't see for the life of me why someone with nice hair like you could fall for a crazy **** religion like the Baha'i Faith. Oh, but its OK because I'm here now and I'm a top guy with the right religion, more inclusive and better than your religion will ever be.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. I'm really tired and will probably regret posting that tomorrow.

4. Originally I joined my religion impulsively, after seeing a resolution to a theological issue that was holding me back. My reason for wanting to join in the first place was because I liked what I thought Baha'is were doing. My only reason for many years now has been because I think I can better serve Baha'u'llah's purposes that way.

You know that in many localities because of our numbers are small we simply don't have the resources for much socioeconomic development. I partner with those in the wider community. What was it that the Baha'is were doing that looked attractive to you?

5. The reason I'm trying to follow Baha'u'llah is because I keep wanting to. I've learned from experience to love and trust Him and what He's promoting, but I think there's more to it than that. I think that maybe He has seized and possessed my heart, which is what He says is His mission. It has nothing to do with thinking that I can prove anything about Him. There was a time when proofs meant something to me, but even then, I don't think that the proofs were part of what motivated me. Finding proofs might have been more about finding ways around my objections to some claims that I thought Baha'u'llah was making, and later, to defend myself against other people's objections.

That sounds like an honest assessment for you. I'm still reflecting about what 'proofs' mean for me. But if you want the reason I posted go back to the OP and read the first line. From there its just evolved.

6. The way I would like people to choose a religious community would be to consider where they think they can do the most good, for the benefit of all people everywhere, regardless of ideology. Of course in joining they would need to be honest about their beliefs, which might exclude them from some communities, but not by their own choice.

I agree.

7. The way I would like people to choose people to follow would be from their own experience and observation of what happens from following them

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Anyway thanks for posting. I'm a little weary of how our last conversation went after you invited me to participate in a previous thread.

A warning and a call to Baha’is from Baha’u’llah’s Universal House of Justice

I'm hoping this will go better.

 

[Jim]

I have this sense that I trouble you in some way.

The only trouble I remember having was a fleeting thought that you might not be interested in what I wanted to say.

What was it that the Baha'is were doing that looked attractive to you?

The principles that it was practicing and promoting, including elimination of prejudices, equality of women and men, harmony of science and religion, harmony between religions, and just generally friendship and collaboration between all people everywhere.

 

[Fool]

This thread is the start of a discussion between @Trailblazer and I about Proofs. What are the proofs that God exists, that a prophet is who He says He is, or that He is a Messenger of God? Are there really any proofs at all or is it all an illusion and wishful thinking at best and delusion at worst?

Bahá’ís believe God has inspired Divine Teachers with laws and teachings for mankind in each age. In the past there have been many Prophets and Messengers. How do we know whether any of these past Messengers were really from God?

I believe there are several proofs which can used to demonstrate the truth of such a claim. These proofs can be used to demonstrate the truth of great Teachers of the past such as Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Christ and Muhammad and more recently Bahá'u’lláh.

So what are these proofs of the truth of any Manifestation of God?

____________________________________________________________________________________

1. His Character

they have no character. they have been poured out(kenosis), blown out(nirvana), oneness(henosis)

2. His Revelation

the revelation is the omnipresence of all in all

3. His verses

word salads. not everyone eats the same salad

4. The martyrs

love is not about sacrifice. its about compassion even towards one's enemies. blessed are we when ignorance has been blinded to the light. understanding appeared to the ignorance and ignorance did not overcome it

5. The repudiation

they hated me without a cause. blessed are they when they are hated because of the name

6. The two-fold sign

all are stars. all have come from the cosmos, the ONE nature, the ONE Absolute.


“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos

 

[Dawnofhope]

The only trouble I remember having was a fleeting thought that you might not be interested in what I wanted to say.

I’m not sure why you would think that but I hope you don’t think it anymore.

The principles that it was practicing and promoting, including elimination of prejudices, equality of women and men, harmony of science and religion, harmony between religions, and just generally friendship and collaboration between all people everywhere.

That’s what has attracted me to the Baha’i Faith too. In regards the elimination of prejudice, that includes religious prejudices. Removing religious prejudice is one of the most important challenges facing humanity. As we both know we need to become the change we want to see. So the document ‘One Common Faith’ helps us. The example of Abdul-Baha helps us. Taking a humble posture of learning helps us. Remembering we can be prejudice towards our fellow Believers is essential too. We’re all imperfect humans walking a common path of service to humanity with whoever feels they want to join us.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Indeed, but who is to judge what harm is? Some folks merely think that practicing another faith outside their own is causing that person harm. I think you and I agree that harm relates mostly to violence or killing. I would include exploitation.

I would add estrangement and aloofness between peoples. I’ve seen some religious groups become closed and exclusive with adherents shunning family members and former friends who aren’t in the circle of ‘truth’.

 

[Vinayaka]

I would add estrangement and aloofness between peoples. I’ve seen some religious groups become closed and exclusive with adherents shunning family members and former friends who aren’t in the circle of ‘truth’.

Families can shun the zealous religious nut too.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Families can shun the zealous religious nut too.

That's true, although sometimes there's prejudice towards people just because they are religious.

I've been thinking a lot about religious prejudice and what a serious problem it is.

 

[Jim]

I would add estrangement and aloofness between peoples. I’ve seen some religious groups become closed and exclusive with adherents shunning family members and former friends who aren’t in the circle of ‘truth’.

Like some Baha'i factions for example?