Can we prove or disprove the claims of any Messenger of God?

[Vinayaka]

That's true, although sometimes there's prejudice towards people just because they are religious.

I've been thinking a lot about religious prejudice and what a serious problem it is.

I think often prejudice is overblown or exaggerated by the 'victims'. If a group isn't following the laws of a country, they play the victim card incessantly. I remember some former staff members playing the gender card for why they didn't get promoted. It wasn't their gender, it was their personality.

I do believe there is actual religious prejudice, though, but we shouldn't jump to conclusions. It can be other factors, like ethnicity, the aforementioned personality, race, etc.

Favoritism is also at play. Once at a tire shop (guy had Christian Businessmen Association posted all over) I got bumped out of line by the owner's church associate. I complained to the BBB on him. They weren't too happy with me.

 

[CG Didymus]

Um, maybe because of the good it might do to follow them?

Well yes, the teachings do them a lot of good. But, they try to follow the teachings because of what they aren't taught to believe about Jesus. If Jesus is a fictional character, or at the stories about him, then Jesus loses his authority to get people to follow what are supposed to be God's commands. The stories are the proof that Jesus is the Messiah and, to many Christians, God himself. That's a lot of authority there. So, if all that is true, it would be best to do as he says. But Baha'is say he is not God. He didn't rise physically from the dead. And, he isn't the "only" way to God. So what's left? Almost every religious teacher has pretty good things they teach for people to live by. But, they usually lead by example. If Jesus' examples are all myth and legend, why listen to him?

 

[CG Didymus]

Mostly just by ignoring it, and trying to learn not to do it myself, along with all the other things I'm doing to try to help change popular attitudes and behavior in Internet discussions in general.

Christianity does the same thing to Judaism. They pick what they can use to build their religious ideas. Like Satan, he is hardly mentioned in the Jewish Bible, but, for Christians, he's a major player and they find him everywhere in the Jewish Bible. He rebelled against God and got cast out of heaven. He got Adam and Eve to sin. Which caused God to have to curse the whole world and made it necessary for Jesus to come save humanity.

Jews easily point out how most of the Scriptures that Christians use are way out of context and our reinterpreted in a way to make everything fit into the Christian explanation of spiritual truth. And Baha'is do the same thing to Christianity. Anywhere that says "The Glory of God" is proof that the Bible teaches about Baha'u'llah. So who you gonna believe? I don't know yet. Hopefully, you're getting things together to where you know.

 

[CG Didymus]

God to me is most "empathetic". He tells me things (physical health) in advance and when He is really talkative He even tells me how to deal with it or how to avoid it.

My Guru is the closest "unconditional Loving person I have met". Never was He condescending to me. And full of empathy.

Abraham was a man of God. So your above line sounds so very strange to me. Being a man of God I would expect "NOT condescending FULL empathetic"

So your "change" you describe sounds more to me like "Less Abrahamic". Or do I miss something here? Just trying to understand correctly.

Okay, now I see the word "lol", I missed that part when writing. I post it anyway "lol".

Can your Guru and Baha'u'llah both be messengers for this age? And is his message similar to the Baha'i message of trying to unite the world in peace and harmony?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Like some Baha'i factions for example?

That's an intriguing comment Jim. When you talk about Baha'i factions, what do you mean?

.

 

[CG Didymus]

Shiva was the first of the great spiritual Teachers, actually it was He who introduced the proper marriage system which made fathers more responsible for their offspring at the time when the matriarchal system was changing into the patriarchal system.

Adam is a mythical image representing the "first human".
Nowadays we see the Australopithecines as our distant ancestors and no longer believe in such myths.

Yes, I would agree that Adam is a myth. I wonder why the Baha'is name a cycle after him. I think they might even call him a "manifestation". So still, I don't ever remember Shiva being mentioned in the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes, I would agree that Adam is a myth. I wonder why the Baha'is name a cycle after him. I think they might even call him a "manifestation". So still, I don't ever remember Shiva being mentioned in the Baha'i Faith.

Nor do I. Krishna, yes.

 

[CG Didymus]

That's an intriguing comment Jim. When you talk about Baha'i factions, what do you mean?

.

Not that I expected Baha'is to be perfect, but there was the "administrative" types, and the "normal" "everyday" Baha'is, then the ones I hung out with, the peace and love renegades. They weren't necessarily big on following the rules of Baha'i protocol. So some of them were getting in trouble with their Local Spiritual Assemblies.

In the early 70's, there was this thing they called a "Nine Day Deepening Institute". Baha'is, many of them new Baha'is from mass teaching projects on Indian Reserves, would spend the nine days reading and talking about, I think it was, the Hidden Words or the Seven Valleys. Mystical things were happening and the "Admirative" types put an end to it. I was told that the wife of one of the Hands of the Cause said it was creating spiritual "haves and have nots".

Yeah, so progressive ideas don't always fly with those in charge. I think I mentioned it. I knew of and heard talks by some of the guys that were involved with the "Dialogue" magazine. I really liked the "Modest Proposal" article. But they all got in trouble and left the Faith, maybe even kicked out. I don't remember.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Nor do I. Krishna, yes.

That's correct. According to a Baha'i world view there is no reason that previous Manifestations before Krishna could have lived and breathed as real people on the Indian subcontinent.

Could Shiva have been a Manifestations of God?


We'll never know in this lifetime.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not that I expected Baha'is to be perfect, but there was the "administrative" types, and the "normal" "everyday" Baha'is, then the ones I hung out with, the peace and love renegades. They weren't necessarily big on following the rules of Baha'i protocol. So some of them were getting in trouble with their Local Spiritual Assemblies.

In the early 70's, there was this thing they called a "Nine Day Deepening Institute". Baha'is, many of them new Baha'is from mass teaching projects on Indian Reserves, would spend the nine days reading and talking about, I think it was, the Hidden Words or the Seven Valleys. Mystical things were happening and the "Admirative" types put an end to it. I was told that the wife of one of the Hands of the Cause said it was creating spiritual "haves and have nots".

Yeah, so progressive ideas don't always fly with those in charge. I think I mentioned it. I knew of and heard talks by some of the guys that were involved with the "Dialogue" magazine. I really liked the "Modest Proposal" article. But they all got in trouble and left the Faith, maybe even kicked out. I don't remember.

We had a similar stuff happening in NZ though I didn’t become a Baha’i until 1990.

It wasn’t until the 1960s and 70s that we had rapid growth. That brought challenges as the older more conservative Baha’is and a newer younger generation came together. There was an emphasis on development of the assembly’s for sure. Young and old needed to walk together in a common path of service.

I do recall the nine day institute in the 90s being held on local Maraes. Some who went through the course were convinced you couldn’t be a real Baha’i unless you had participated. I never did it and it was just unrealistic and unsustainable for most people to take 9 days out from everything to attend. The institute that remains is much more flexible to the needs of most people. I spend a couple of hours each Sunday studying with some friends.

Like you I hung out with some of the alternative intellectuals. Some certainly viewed themselves as the more enlightened Baha’is. Some thought they knew better than the Universal House of Justice and that became a problem.

 

[Jim]

When you talk about Baha'i factions, what do you mean?

One example is the liberal and anti-liberal factions. I had some friendly conversations with some on the liberal side of the feuding for a while, but then some of them decided to shun me. Also, some on the anti-liberal side were telling me that I should shun some of the ones on the liberal side. Someone very close to me told me that he thought the House of Justice was wrong not to declare them Covenant breakers. He made some dire threats against me if I didn't renounce my friendships with them, and finally he decided to shun me.

 

[Dawnofhope]

One example is the liberal and anti-liberal factions. I had some friendly conversations with some on the liberal side of the feuding for a while, but then some of them decided to shun me. Also, some on the anti-liberal side were telling me that I should shun some of the ones on the liberal side. Someone very close to me told me that he thought the House of Justice was wrong not to declare them Covenant breakers. He made some dire threats against me if I didn't renounce my friendships with them, and finally he decided to shun me.

I've never heard of 'liberal' and 'anti-liberal' Baha'i factions. We're all just Baha'is on RF as far as I can see. same deal in my community. We did have a situation back in 2000 a member of my community had her membership removed by the Universal House of Justice. She wasn't declared a Covenant breaker and that's only happened twice in my country in the last 100 years. People were free to Alison or not. A few people thought Alison was right and the Universal House of Justice were wrong. We all made our choices and moved on as we should.

 

[Jim]

So who you gonna believe? I don't know yet. Hopefully, you're getting things together to where you know.

I was thinking that you were just heckling me, until I saw this. I'm not saying that religious lore and scriptures are purely fictional. I'm saying that even if they were purely fictional, they could still do all the good that I think they can do, and that debating about what's fiction and what isn't, or which lore and scriptures can do the most good, only gets in the way of the good they can do. People can think whatever they want to about what's fiction and what isn't, or which lore and scriptures can do the most good. Maybe what's best for that is different for different people, and at different times in their lives. Maybe we should trust people more, and trust whatever powers we believe in more, for the paths that people choose, and learn to walk side by side with them wherever they are in those paths. Let's leave history to our historians, and get on with our business. My business is learning to improve my character, my conduct, and the way I live my life, in ways that help improve the world for all people everywhere, for human progress, and to help stop the cruelty and violence, right the wrongs and repair the damage. If you disagree with any of that, and want to have an open-ended discussion about it, I'm willing to do that. Do you want to try to do that? I'm sure that what I'm saying needs to be clarified and qualified, one way or another, and a discussion between us might help with that.

 

[Jim]

I've never heard of 'liberal' and 'anti-liberal' Baha'i factions.

You don't believe that there is any such thing? There's a faction of Baha'is and former Baha'is that call themselves "liberal Baha'is." That's well documented. There have been other Baha'is who encouraged and supported each other in maligning and scolding liberal Baha'is, day after day, for years, in Internet discussions. I was there, I saw that with my own eyes.There have been Baha'i blogs on the Internet with hundreds of admirers, continually promoting the views of liberal Baha'is, denouncing what other Baha'is are doing and raking up muck about it. The open feuding in Internet discussions has subsided, but there are still places, including a massive Facebook group, where discussions among Baha'is on one side sometimes revolve around denouncing Baha'is on the other side.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You don't believe that there is any such thing? There's a faction of Baha'is and former Baha'is that call themselves "liberal Baha'is." That's well documented. There have been other Baha'is who encouraged and supported each other in maligning and scolding liberal Baha'is, day after day, for years, in Internet discussions. I was there, I saw that with my own eyes.There have been Baha'i blogs on the Internet with hundreds of admirers, continually promoting the views of liberal Baha'is, denouncing what other Baha'is are doing and raking up muck about it. The open feuding in Internet discussions has subsided, but there are still places, including a massive Facebook group, where discussions among Baha'is on one side sometimes revolve around denouncing Baha'is on the other side.

I said I haven't heard of it. I didn't say I didn't believe it existed.

The last 'Baha'i' discussion group I participated in was back in 2005 for a few months. Before that Talisman in 1996 for a few months. I live life in the world of face to face interactions.

There have been no arguments or fights between Baha'is on religious forum in the last 1 1/2 years I've been here...not that I'm aware of. No Baha'i here has called themselves 'liberal'. There's obviously diversity of opinion but we're pretty relaxed about that.

Why do you spend so much time exposing yourself to such negativity?

 

[Jim]

Why do you spend so much time exposing yourself to such negativity?

Are you really interested in my reasons? The way that’s worded, it looks like a reproach to me, and not a real question.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Are you really interested in my reasons? The way that’s worded, it looks like a reproach to me, and not a real question.

It’s not a reproach. I’m trying to better understand you. Feel free to answer or not.

 

[Marcion]

Could Shiva have been a Manifestations of God.

Why did your preceptor overlook or forget to mention Him?
He can be forgiven, for even most hindus no longer remember Lord Shiva as a historical person who actually walked the earth thousands of years ago but now see Him only as a god.
The collection of talks 'Namah Shiváya Shantáya' had not yet been written in the days of Bahaullah.
Namah Shivaya Shantaya - Sarkarverse, the wikipedia of all things Prabhat Ranjan Sarkar

 

[stvdv]

Can your Guru and Baha'u'llah both be messengers for this age? And is his message similar to the Baha'i message of trying to unite the world in peace and harmony?

My guru is called Poorna Avatar. One of His goals was to update the scriptures because too many errors snuck in. So I think you can call Him Messenger for this Age.

He specifically said He did not come to start a new religion; there are already plenty. Just take your pick. He inspires people to become better in their own religion.

And His Message is all about "unite the world in peace and harmony". He called it "Unity in Diversity"

Some other quotes about unity were:
1) There is only 1 religion; the religion of Love
2) There is only 1 caste; the caste of humanity
3) There is only one language; the language of the Heart
4) There is only one law; the law of Karma
5) There is only 1 God and He is omnipresent
6) There is only one atma, which pervades every creature.
7) There is only one Truth – scholars, men of wisdom call it by different names

You may worship God in many names and forms but the Divine principle is one and the same

 

[Marcion]

So it seems we have no lack of spiritual reformers in this day and age.
Which one will have the most impact on the human society as compared to the greatest reformers of the past?