Heathen Hammer
Nope, you're still wrong
Im sorry you cannot grasp what's going on around you. Best stick to looking through Google for funny pictures. Keeping track of conversations does not seem to be a strong suit with you.
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Can you believe in the infallabilty of the bible?
- Thread starter gseeker
- Start date
Heathen Hammer
Nope, you're still wrong
btw,
spe·cious/ˈspēSHəs/
Adjective:
spe·cious/ˈspēSHəs/
Adjective:
- Superficially plausible, but actually wrong: "a specious argument".
- Misleading in appearance, esp. misleadingly attractive: "a specious appearance of novelty".
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Wow. From you, that's pretty high praise. Thanks!
Heathen Hammer
Nope, you're still wrong
Well, back tomorrow morning. Im sure the hi-jinx will keep. Tah.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Great, you Googled dictionary.com. Now, how was my comment specious?
And please, rather than resort to mere epithets like brainiac as well as others, why not confine yourself to supporting your arguments with actual reason and logic. Bludgeoning your opponent may seem like fun, but it's not much of a conversation. Unfortunately, I find myself being drawn in to your juvenile attempts and I am beginning to respond in kind. My bad.
gseeker
conflicted constantly
Hey people, play nice. My I.Q. is 144 but the fact is that intelligence has very little to do with religious belief other than to dictate ability. For some reason I don't think many people with average or low intellect would spend much time debating theology and philosophy online. There are extenuating circumstances that lead a person to believe one way or another. Culture, society, race, sex and possibly even genetic make up help contribute to an individuals belief system. On that note, be open to the arguments of others. When I first started posting on here I was a born again, street preaching Christian. Now because I was open to what I read on here and because I was open to other source material such as Ehrmans book and scientific studies I am now an undefined monotheistic. That means that if I'm right now then I was wrong for 12 years of my life. Intelligence only gets you so far if you aren't willing to seriously consider the arguments and studies that others place before you. That also means even with my I.Q. of 144 I was either wrong then or wrong now. Intellectual ability has nothing to do with infallibility.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
What about Ehram's missuse of accurate but mismanaged data caused you to loose faith?
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waitasec
Veteran Member
the power of persuasion is lacking....
in other words....the wall in front of me persuades me to know i can't walk through it as it speaks for itself and there is no room for interpretation
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1robin
Christian/Baptist
Agreed it's not. In the bible's case I think it is by design since proof would negate the need for faith, which for some reason suits God's purpose. The bible in general has to evaluated the same way as any other historical text. When done it exceeds every other work of antiquity and many later ones. If Jesus be denied by the same standards every other character in ancient history must also be denied. Why is this not so? The bible is only responsible to provide suffecient grounds for faith. The greatest experts on evidence in history affirm that it does so and more. It meets it's requirement for it's purpose and exceeds all contemporary works by many many times over.
It's more than a little dishonest to fabricate claimes out of mid air. So, you claim that "the greatest experts on evidence in history affirm." That is an awsome claim.
Please:
- List three.
- Confirm their credentials,
- Reference where they make the affirmation.
gseeker
conflicted constantly
I discovered his literature at the beganing of my true search for the essence of God. As a Christian you must believe the God has given you the Bible to be an infallible explanation of God and his desire for your life. When I discovered that there were more than 400,000 errors and alterations between manuscripts, how the books of the Bible were decided upon, how the authorship of the books were questionable, and how the oldest manuscript found were still dozens of years after the supposed death of Jesus, well at that point you have to question if such a book was ever of God. If God wanted us to know him through the Scripture said Scripture couldn't be altered and if you accept that man can change and alter the word of God through free will then God would never have put his word to be put in a changeable format. Direct revelation to each individual would be much more likely.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Did whatever you read by Ehrman tell you that the 400,000 errors are in the entire textual tradition not in a single bible version? I doubt it that does not sell books. He will and has admitted it when pressed but does not do so on his own. The entire textual tradition consists of over 5,700 catalogued texts. With 140 thousand words each for the NT. I will lower that to 100 thousand words to account for incomplete texts. Thats 570 million words. That equals one error every 1425 words. For a two thousand year old text even this is not bad. However 95% of those errors are meaningless and Ehrman would concur. They involve too many Rs in Peter or even capitalization. When it all said and done most theologians claim about 99.5 accuracy and most textual critics claim about 95% accuracy. The answer is probably in the middle. That is greater than any other work in antiquity be far except for Thucydides history of the Peloponnesian war which I have read but he has other problems like time between original and oldest extant. 1000 yrs. I think, versus the bibles 20-90 yrs. and there are good reasons to say 10-40 yrs. but again probably in the middle. In Christianity the time span between event and recording is amazingly brief and even if claimed to be long by critics, the bible claims something no else can. The Holy Spirit was sent with the express purpose of recalling to mind the events themselves. God never promised pure copies but he did promise pure revelation and the textual tradition is believed to contain it all. The problem is slightly too much not too little. Besides this all or virtually all errors are known and indicated in modern bibles and does not affect core doctrine. Man never altered the words of God wholesale. There are a few places it was attempted. It was unsuccessful because they are known. The only thing God could have done is either kill the scribe or send angels to fix every mistake of every scribe in history. As it stands the bible is without peer. Nothing comparable is even close. It is downright miraculous. The greatest expert on evidence in human history (Simon Greenleaf) who literally wrote the book on the subject said the testimony in the bible meets every standard of modern law and history.
Most of these differences are completely immaterial and insignificant; in fact most of the changes found in our early Christian manuscripts have nothing to do with theology or ideology. Far and away the most changes are the result of mistakes, pure and simple slips of the pen, accidental omissions, inadvertent additions, misspelled words, blunders of one sort or another when scribes made intentional changes, sometimes their motives
were as pure as the driven snow. And so we must rest content knowing that getting back to the earliest attainable version is the best we can do, whether or not we have reached back to the original text. This oldest form of the text is no doubt closely (very closely) related to what the author originally wrote, and so it is the basis for our interpretation of his teaching.
were as pure as the driven snow. And so we must rest content knowing that getting back to the earliest attainable version is the best we can do, whether or not we have reached back to the original text. This oldest form of the text is no doubt closely (very closely) related to what the author originally wrote, and so it is the basis for our interpretation of his teaching.
The gentleman that Im quoting is Bart Ehrman in Misquoting Jesus. [audience laughter]
This is from the debate transcript between DR Bart Ehrman and Dr James White
One last very meaningfull issue is that reliability is enhanced with the number of textual manuscripts exist. However the way Erhrman uses numbers it shows more errors simply because we have more texts to have errors in them. In fact by his methods a single text would have no errors but a single text is extremely un-reliable. It is a strange dicotomy that only one side is ever told.
gseeker
conflicted constantly
You notice how you said most are insignificant? That doesn't mean all. So there are major errors. By the way 5% is still around 37,000 errors. For the Bible to be infallible it must have no changes or alterations. How do you justify belief in the accuracy and authority of the new testament Scripture when you don't know who wrote it? And yes ehrman does state that the errors counted are between all manuscripts and that as other manuscripts are found more errors would be discovered as well. If God wanted us to have an infallible Scripture so that we might know him then why the inconsistency and alterations. I'm pretty sure that the Creator who made the human mind would know that such changes and alterations in the Scripture, the questionable authorship, and time frame disparitys wow make mankind doubts the authority of the Bible as the word of God. So by allowing the Bible to reach such a state,with so much confusion and questions surrounding the infallibility of the Bible we must infer that either it isn't of God or God has used the Bible to confuse mankind and keep them from understanding God.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Well I am suprised, he hemmed and hawed around it the two debates where he was challenged on it but eventually capitulated. They know who wrote most books IMO we know who wrote all but possibly one. However even if we didn't experts have determined that they are definatley all eye witnesses and with no competeing authors (nor a single competing claim from an eye witness or any one else) that makes them reliably written by who they are named for. Regardless four independant testimosies about a single event especially in that time that are so consistent and meet every historical method criteria are a long way from un reliable. There are also many extra biblical mentions of Christ, Christians, and one that mentions a supernatural event. Ancient texts just don't get any better in fact none are even a fraction as reliable. If you reject the bible no mottar what else you choose it's pedegree so to speak is worse, unless your into new-age sipritist non sence. No major religion or ancient text can match the bible.
If God wrote a paragraph. then a scribe added a word to the end then there are several possible outcomes. God could have either killed the scribe or supernaturally fixed it. Or he could have empowered textual scholars to find and indicate the error. Some one who has a bias that necessitates rejection can claim that that one word at the end renders the whole thing useless. Or some one who has no resistance to the issue can ignore the one word and believe in the rest.
You seem to say perfection or nothing. I understand the position. I actually don't know why God didn't do it. That however does not render the bible meaningless since he did give the power to men to find the errors in the many manuscripts that he gave men power to create so that reliability would be assured. What we have isn't perfect but it is definately remarkable by every standard and completely suffecient for a Christian's life. Why can't the known errors just be ignored and the 99.9999% known textually accurate text be trusted. That may just be the way God accomplished what you desired. You did say you were born again Correct? What book led you to Christ?
gseeker
conflicted constantly
My favorite books were Luke, Galatians and Ephesians. Actually it was secular music that caused my conversion and full acceptance of Scripture. Due to over exposure of Christian belief and moral values I was seeking God in the Christian faith and while driving down the road praying my mind opened up to what I was hearing on the radio and the sinfulness that was being sung about shocked me. Even though I had thought that I was a Christian before that moment I realized that I had only gone through the motions. I pulled over to the side of the road crying and invited Christ into my heart. As I did so I felt something the felt like a comforting warm blanket draped over my shoulders an an intense peace in my heart.
Of course now that I've studied it, I was exposed to Christian belief everyday. I wasn't sleeping much due to stress. Both lack of sleep and repetition lead to a form of brainwashing. The military uses such tactics to conformity and discipline through bootcamp and basic training. The even call it what it is, brainwashing. How do I know? I'm former Navy and have seen and experienced how effective such tactics are. The warm blanket and the feeling of peace, simply the release of brain chemicals due to a religious experience. P.S. It doesn't matter what religion, many have the same or similar experience.
Back on the topic though, so you choose to ignore the inclusion of multiple paragraphs after the fact, that many of the authors of the new testaments are in question. Any good study Bible will give you that information. Hint, its normally mentioned in the introduction of the book.
Of course now that I've studied it, I was exposed to Christian belief everyday. I wasn't sleeping much due to stress. Both lack of sleep and repetition lead to a form of brainwashing. The military uses such tactics to conformity and discipline through bootcamp and basic training. The even call it what it is, brainwashing. How do I know? I'm former Navy and have seen and experienced how effective such tactics are. The warm blanket and the feeling of peace, simply the release of brain chemicals due to a religious experience. P.S. It doesn't matter what religion, many have the same or similar experience.
Back on the topic though, so you choose to ignore the inclusion of multiple paragraphs after the fact, that many of the authors of the new testaments are in question. Any good study Bible will give you that information. Hint, its normally mentioned in the introduction of the book.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
So all this over exposure and flawed biblical doctrine led you to the greatest treasure in human history. The pearl of great price. Then you heard Ehrman and doubted everything. Something doesn't add up here. To what extent you have lost faith in the word and God. Also this is a terrible place to define your faith. This is like the friday night game. You need to develope your faith by practice away from hostility (I did not mean in a vacume either), my favorites are competant professional debates. The best are Dr Ravi Zacharias and Dr James White and Dr Denesh Desouza and Dr William lane Craig are very good. A good Muslim even if I disagree with him is Shabir Alli. Almost every one here is very commited and a few are even good at debate, and a few are Christian. There are not many that are all three. However that is my advice it may be taken or ignored at your wish.
The same experience is not even offered by most religions. The bible is the sole religion that offers and demands spiritual evidence for and of every believer. Most others are intellectual agreements to a philosophy or world view, others offer an experience to some who achieve certain status. I have found it is always some other guy who reaches enlightenment. Christianity has at least a billion people alive today that would testify they had an experience with God. No other faith can supply a meaningful fraction of that.
I am a 9 year Navy veteran. I am familiar with brain washing. I cannot tell you if you were saved (sounds very likely). My own experience was of such a character that my own doubts are somewhat lessened, but all biblical salvation experiences are similar but to differing degrees. I have no access to your experience. However I can offer you very good evidence and reasons to have faith in the bible. I can tell you have been given some very bad information. Or have become so discouraged that it seems that way.
What are you referring to? In my example the typical several hundred word paragraph with a single error word at the end is similar to the error rate in the bible. In fact it is far worse. If you are adding error paragraphs after my single word then it isn't the bible you are simulating. I still don't understand your point. If you know where all the errors are and we do and they are indicated then just skip that 2 or 3 percent of the time they make any difference. That leaves 100% reliable stuff. I think your problem goes beyond the numbers. The numbers do not add up to the level of despare I sence in your posts.
I have an NIV (which is not the best bible ever) however it was worked on by over a hundred textual scholars. It in no uncertain terms give the traditional authors credit for their books. Here is what the number one online bible reference site says.
 Narratives:
o The gospel according to Matthew was written by Matthew the tax collector.
o The gospel according to Mark was written by John-Mark.
o The gospel according to Luke was written by Luke the Physician.
o The gospel according to John was written by John the disciple that Jesus loved.
o The Acts of the Apostles was written by Luke the Physician.
 Epistles (or letters):
o The Pauline Epistles are those written by Paul (Saul) of Tarsus:
Romans 1 Corinthians 2 Corinthians Galatians Ephesians
Philippians Colossians 1 Thessalonians 2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy 2 Timothy Titus Philemon
o The Peterine Epistles are those written by Peter of the Twelve:
1 Peter
2 Peter
o The Johanine Epistles are those written by John, the disciple that Jesus loved:
1 John
2 John
3 John
o And though sharing in three literary traditions apocalyptic, prophetic, and epistolary listing John's Apocalypse (also called Revelation) as an epistle will suit our purposes here. This was written by the same John as above.
o The book of James was written most likely by James the brother of Jesus.
o The book of Jude was written by Jude the brother of James.
o The epistle of Hebrews is written anonymously. Some people ascribe it to the Apostle Paul while others prefer Apollos. Most scholars lean toward someone other than Paul. (I will add that this book has the least amount of textual errors than any other)
 http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/authors.cfm
Italics mine. I sense something besides facts are creating your issues. The facts are just used to justify whatever is the real issue. That is only my opinion but I have been a Church counselor in the past. I have addressed both concerns you had sufficiently though not perfectly. If you have a reason this isn't satisfactory I will help if I can but if you reject them solely because that justifies whatever is bothering you then I can't help.
gseeker
conflicted constantly
It is hard to explain to you because you look at the Bible as infallible and I see major erroneous conflicts in the same book. While misquoting Jesus set me on the path I'm on now, I didn't just read it and believe it. At the time of my conversion I was studying the Bible for 7 or more hours a day for about two months. Ehrmans teaching allowed me to look beyond the box or reason I had placed myself in. I'm at work now or else I would whip out my Bible and go through with you which books and which authorship is questionable. By the way, I read the king James and new king James version. The full paragraphs I'm referring to are the adulterous woman and the entire end of mark.Again saying that there is only a five percent major error rate out of 400,000 errors between manuscripts is still saying that there are around 37,000 midrange to major errors in the infallible book of God. The lack of historical reference written about a man who created miracles, fed thousands, healed people, and arose from the dead until more than 30 years later is suspect, the fact that there are errors in the word of God are confounding, the opportune social and political system creating a void for a new religious movement convenient, and the similarity to other religious stories of the time condemning.
Heathen Hammer
Nope, you're still wrong
Perfection fallacy. One can rarely collect 100% of all evidence for anything. However, if all evidence points to something, conclusions are valid until contrary evidence arises. This is how it works. In fact it often boggles me that I need to explain this to an adult in America in the age in which we live. Children know this better than you do.
A lack of evidence is not proof; something you should pay more attention to.