Can you give me an observable evidence that Evolution is true?

[gnostic]

That's a lot of words to tell me you can't answer the questions... I don't have the constraints or excuses you raise and use pure logic to understand that it is an impossibility for existence as we know it to arise from non-existence... That's my only point...not the validity or not of the contemporary theories being put forward about the the universe that we know exists...

You are the one who is trying to associate the "before the singularity" with timelessness.

What would this state be called before the singularity....for example could we refer to it timelessness?

You are making claims to something which we really don't know anything about. You are speculating, playing the what-if game, about the "before the singularity"...when no one really know what the singularity is, let "before" this singularity.

How do you know that there were no time?

And you want me to play with some more what-if game:

Now reverse it again to fast forward....from this timeless state comes time and space and all that now exists. So what is the mechanism by which time and space could arises from timelessness-spacelessness?

And why did timelessness spacellessness give rise to time and space?

And then you try to make me answer how "timelessness" make "time". But what make you think there was ever "timelessness", "no time" or "outside of time" in the first place?

All the Big Bang cosmology really talk about the universe that's "observable" and making the point of Big Bang as time = 0 second, and moving time onward forward from that point on. The Big Bang model don't attempt to describe anything before the Big Bang, let alone before the singularity. And the model certainly doesn't say it was "timelessness".

I have already told you that "something" cannot come out of "nothing", because the nothingness deal is not likely to make something, let alone everything. And the BB model never said anything about there being nothing before the Big Bang.

Likewise I don't think there is a "timelessness" or "no time" before the Big Bang. Actually, timelessness don't make sense.

All BB scientists are really doing is placing a marker on the point of the Big Bang, as t = 0 second, for OUR known and observable universe, because (A) we cannot observe anything before the Big Bang, and (B) anything before the point of Big Bang is just speculation (for now), including your claim that it was "timelessness".

This marker of t = 0 s, is about 13.77 billion years ago, and what BB scientists are trying to do verifying that they could possibly can, AFTER THE BIG BANG, like the nucleosynthesis of the lightest elements, the first stars, etc.

So....

1. After the Big Bang are some things that we can verify.
2. Before the Big Bang are some things that we can only theoreticalise and speculate...at least for now.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I can't explain how it would be possible, but I'm not the one making a claim.

I can agree that it makes sense and that it seems incomprehensible for the totality of existence to become non-existent. My mind cannot fathom how all of existence can become non-existent. But this is my own mind and the limitations of it, and it's NOT proof of anything. I can't be so egocentric to project the notions I have in my head on how the Universe ought to be like. You have to understand that there are things about this Universe that won't make sense to us. Quantum superpositions didn't make sense to us upon discovery, but they're nonetheless, a fact of reality. Black holes didn't make sense to us and Einstein refused to believe they existed. But they do.

You're making a claim. You need physical proof.


It is logical. I agree and I can give you that. But like I said, logic alone doesn't prove anything physically. You're trying to prove conclusively that existence is eternal. But right now, considering all we know about the observable universe and the way time behaves, the totality of existence is beyond our comprehension right now. We don't have enough information. So anything about the totality of existence is inconclusive and I think that's the stance you should take.

You're too quick to want a conclusion and an answer about the fundamental natures of the Universe. Learn to see when something is inconclusive.

Well I am very happy to see that we are in general agreement on the logic of what I explained...all that remains is the physical proof as you say...

This is what I propose....I offer you the existing physical universe that everyone accepts as real...yes?

I offer you the science that can not make the least iota of it to become non-existent, nor is there any peer reviewed paper in existence that presents a plausible scientific theory that predicts a way to be able to do this....yes?

So what more evidence is there that you need?

And so what evidence you offer me that it may be possible? That we don't have enough information yet....it is beyond human comprehension right now....we should not be too quick to conclude....our mind is limited....the universe doesn't make sense to us....you don't want to be so egocentric to project...etc., etc.....

This is not a scientific or even logicical rebuttal to the factual evidence I have provided....this is all your personal projection as a result of the cognitive dissonance brought about by suddenly realizing that what I'm say is sound while at the same time still having the preexisting erroneous anthropomorphic conditioning that there had to be a beginning. I am not being facetious, this is a normal sate of affairs when one suddenly learns something new that contradicts some other preexisting belief. I am not asking or wanting you to accept what I'm saying (about existence) right away, but I hope you will keep it under consideration....that's all....

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You are the one who is trying to associate the "before the singularity" with timelessness.

You are making claims to something which we really don't know anything about. You are speculating, playing the what-if game, about the "before the singularity"...when no one really know what the singularity is, let "before" this singularity.

How do you know that there were no time?

And you want me to play with some more what-if game:


And then you try to make me answer how "timelessness" make "time". But what make you think there was ever "timelessness", "no time" or "outside of time" in the first place?

All the Big Bang cosmology really talk about the universe that's "observable" and making the point of Big Bang as time = 0 second, and moving time onward forward from that point on. The Big Bang model don't attempt to describe anything before the Big Bang, let alone before the singularity. And the model certainly doesn't say it was "timelessness".

I have already told you that "something" cannot come out of "nothing", because the nothingness deal is not likely to make something, let alone everything. And the BB model never said anything about there being nothing before the Big Bang.

Likewise I don't think there is a "timelessness" or "no time" before the Big Bang. Actually, timelessness don't make sense.

All BB scientists are really doing is placing a marker on the point of the Big Bang, as t = 0 second, for OUR known and observable universe, because (A) we cannot observe anything before the Big Bang, and (B) anything before the point of Big Bang is just speculation (for now), including your claim that it was "timelessness".

This marker of t = 0 s, is about 13.77 billion years ago, and what BB scientists are trying to do verifying that they could possibly can, AFTER THE BIG BANG, like the nucleosynthesis of the lightest elements, the first stars, etc.

So....

1. After the Big Bang are some things that we can verify.
2. Before the Big Bang are some things that we can only theoreticalise and speculate...at least for now.

I am saying simply that the sum total of all that exists can not be made to not exist..... If you think otherwise please explain how this would be possible?

 

[gnostic]

I am saying simply that the sum total of all that exists can not be made to not exist..... If you think otherwise please explain how this would be possible?

And I am telling you and have been telling you that we don't know everything, and we don't know what happened before the Big Bang, so how can we possibly claim that there were "timelessness" before the singularity.

If I don't know what happened before the Big Bang, how I can possibly answer you about timelessness or no time creating time.

How do you know that there were timelessness?

You don't.

And timelessness is there being "no time", so how can timelessness make time. You are contradicting yourself with 2 different oxymoron concepts. Why do you think I could possibly answer your impossible question?

Personally I think you are just giving me run-around with meaningless word game.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

And I am telling you and have been telling you that we don't know everything, and we don't know what happened before the Big Bang, so how can we possibly claim that there were "timelessness" before the singularity.

If I don't know what happened before the Big Bang, how I can possibly answer you about timelessness or no time creating time.

How do you know that there were timelessness?

You don't.

And timelessness is there being "no time", so how can timelessness make time. You are contradicting yourself with 2 different oxymoron concepts. Why do you think I could possibly answer your impossible question?

Personally I think you are just giving me run-around with meaningless word game.

gnostic...with due respect....as Chinese, you do not understand English well enough to have a sensible discussion with.. Yes , you are extremely verbose, but most of what you post is not germane to the actual context...it is if you are copying and pasting stuff, and not addressing directly the salient point of my post..

For example...you ask me how did I know there was timelessness? I never said there was timelessness, quite the opposite...I am saying that there was never a beginning....the sum total of all that exists to day has always existed.

If you want to engage me, you will need to be relevant....just spraying copy and paste all over the place each time you post does not cut it... Try and be concise and relevant in your next post in response....no copy and paste!

ps...and please delete your duplicate comment...'Delete' button next to 'Edit'....

 

[gnostic]

gnostic...with due respect....as Chinese, you do not understand English well enough to have a sensible discussion with.. Yes , you are extremely verbose, but most of what you post is not germane to the actual context...it is if you are copying and pasting stuff, and not addressing directly the salient point of my post..

For example...you ask me how did I know there was timelessness? I never said there was timelessness, quite the opposite...I am saying that there was never a beginning....the sum total of all that exists to day has always existed.

If you want to engage me, you will need to be relevant....just spraying copy and paste all over the place each time you post does not cut it... Try and be concise and relevant in your next post in response....no copy and paste!

ps...and please delete your duplicate comment...'Delete' button next to 'Edit'....

No, ben, you are not understanding me.

I've keep telling you that in your original post to me, you have provide me with scenario that have no answer. I keep telling you that I can't answer them.

That you keep bringing up the scenario and same questions to me, again and again, will get you the exactly the same answer.

How many times do I have to say to you that I have no answer to your impossible what-if scenario, before you finally grasp it?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No, ben, you are not understanding me.

I've keep telling you that in your original post to me, you have provide me with scenario that have no answer. I keep telling you that I can't answer them.

That you keep bringing up the scenario and same questions to me, again and again, will get you the exactly the same answer.

How many times do I have to say to you that I have no answer to your impossible what-if scenario, before you finally grasp it?

No gnostic...I only bring to you a scenario I can prove...I say universal existence is real....do you agree ...yes or no?

 

[McBell]

I only bring to you a scenario I can prove

still waiting on the "prove" part....

cue the condensation....

 

[gnostic]

No gnostic...I only bring to you a scenario I can prove...I say universal existence is real....do you agree ...yes or no?

Are you kidding me?!

You have only provide me with your belief and speculation, and a rigged scenario that I can't answer, nothing more. You have given no evidences whatsoever.

You talk of "before the singularity". No one know what's before the singularity. Perhaps there is no before the singularity, but know one know for sure. You are "sure", but you have no certainty to your "belief".

For me, certainty come from evidence or being able to test or verify it. You have provided none.

There is no evidences of timelessness, just your personal opinion.

How many times do I need to repeat myself, before you finally understand my stance?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

still waiting on the "prove" part....
.

Haha.....the universe is real because its existence endures ...if it were not real, its existence would not endure and would go out of existence...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Are you kidding me?!

You have only provide me with your belief and speculation, and a rigged scenario that I can't answer, nothing more. You have given no evidences whatsoever.

You talk of "before the singularity". No one know what's before the singularity. Perhaps there is no before the singularity, but know one know for sure. You are "sure", but you have no certainty to your "belief".

For me, certainty come from evidence or being able to test or verify it. You have provided none.

There is no evidences of timelessness, just your personal opinion.

How many times do I need to repeat myself, before you finally understand my stance?

You see how poor your understanding of English is....I purposely framed the question for a simple yes or no answer to avoid your obfuscation of my points.. And you could not even understand that.

No go back and read my post again and provide a yes or no answer? You will have to face up to the truth one day so you may as well start today...

 

[McBell]

Haha.....the universe is real because its existence endures ...if it were not real, its existence would not endure and would go out of existence...

still waiting

 

[Ben Dhyan]

still waiting

Still waiting for what..what am I missing? Let me ask you this simple question to see where you are coming from, so a starting point of agreement can be established...do you think this universe exists....yes or no?

 

[McBell]

Still waiting for what..what am I missing? Let me ask you this simple question to see where you are coming from, so a starting point of agreement can be established...do you think this universe exists....yes or no?

no

 

[Ben Dhyan]

no

What is your proof that the universe does not exist?

 

[McBell]

What is your proof that the universe does not exist?

what is your proof it does?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

what is your proof it does?

You have made your position clear that you believe the universe is not real..I have asked you for your proof behind your position and you ask a question of me that is not germane to the question I asked...

I am trying to get some reason into this discussion so we need a starting point....and the starting point is your stated belief that the universe does not exist...please answer the question so we can move on?

 

[gnostic]

still waiting on the "prove" part....
.

So have I.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So have I.

But all the proof of the universe existing is before you, the earth,water, air, stars, what more proof do you want?

 

[gnostic]

You see how poor your understanding of English is....I purposely framed the question for a simple yes or no answer to avoid your obfuscation of my points.. And you could not even understand that.

No go back and read my post again and provide a yes or no answer? You will have to face up to the truth one day so you may as well start today...

What truth? What proof?

You have provided any. You gave me a baseless scenario, and expect me to answer an impossible and contradictory question.

Forget it. We are getting no where, so I am no longer interested playing your word game.