Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
I think 1 Peter 4:6 and 1 Peter 3:21 and 1 Corinthians 15:29 imply it.But what makes this look like an impossibility is Hebrews 9:27.
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Can you go to heaven after you die a nonbeliever?
- Thread starter Frank Goad
- Start date
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
No. We non-believers don't go to heaven. It's saying that one needs to be baptized and believe in the spirit in order to go to heaven. Everyone would be judged and non-believers, by definition, would not go to heaven because we didn't do what believers' god wanted us to do. So, the bible has a win or loose scenario. If you believe, you win. If you don't, you loose.
exchemist
Veteran Member
The Catholic church certainly thinks non-believers can go to heaven. John Paul II is on record about this. And it seems only reasonable, if one believes in a loving God who is fair to humanity.
Question, where is Heaven? Are Heaven and Paradise one and the same place?
Question, what Heaven? There are many heavens, at least 8 according to some cultures.
I can go on and on, waste of time and energy....
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Well, since you asked, according to my beliefs God can accept into heaven anyone that He pleases...
Mind you, Baha’is do not believe that heaven is a geographical location, but a Baha’i once asked the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith (Shoghi Effendi) how to get to heaven, and here was his answer...
"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Does the writings say what happens when someone doesn't lean on god for mercy?
When you study the NDEs of those who had such experiences you get totally another view of who gets to heaven and who does not, the answer, everybody "will attain" union with God, eventually.
You can be in heaven right now, it's a state of mind, how many people have this state of mind? Even one person to have this state of mind and the whole world is changed forever, Jesus, the Christ, Buddha and the list goes on and on...
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not believe that Heaven is a place but rather it is a state of the soul that is near to God. Heaven is the same as Paradise.
Since we can be near to God in both the material world and the spiritual world we can be in Heaven/Paradise in this life and the next.
Exactly, heaven, to me, represents the unity with God to some extent.
What is the Soul to you? To me is who am I in this life, my personality, and my Spirit is who truly I am, always one with God in complete unity. I believe there is a Soul and a Spirit, why? I had a very powerful out of body experience, more like a near death experience and basically I met myself but this myself was God, my God, my higher Self, the true Self. I believe we all have our own Gods and our lives are totally in the hands of these Gods, they are our true Selves. To me this explains why some people get to exeprience miraculous healings while other die of horrible deaths. Muslims, christians, Hindu, miraculous healings happen all over the world from time to time, it has nothing to do with religion.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not know how those NDEs could determine that. Have you ever seen the hellish NDEs? Nobody really knows if those souls will remain in a hellish state, there is no way to know. One thing we know is that when they returned to this life they changed their lives, but what about those souls who do not get a second chance?
Anyhow, I agree that the destiny of a faithful believer is to return to God.
“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159
I am just not so sure that will be the case for everyone because some people do not want to be near to God and I do not believe that God ever forces His Will upon anyone.
You just beat me to the punch...
See my post below.I do not know how those NDEs could determine that. Have you ever seen the hellish NDEs? Nobody really knows if those souls will remain in a hellish state, there is no way to know. One thing we know is that when they returned to this life they changed their lives, but what about those souls who do not get a second chance?
Anyhow, I agree that the destiny of a faithful believer is to return to God.
“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159
I am just not so sure that will be the case for everyone because some people do not want to be near to God and I do not believe that God ever forces His Will upon anyone.
You just beat me to the punch...
I had helish OBEs, not one but many, here I am, still alive, you know what I have learned from these experiences? They are our own doing... Once I was chased by this huge demonic creature, it chased me 3 times then I said that I have to be curageous and I took a stick in my hand and I turned my attention to that demonic creature, instantly it started to fear me and it ran away. There may be outside forces but everything that happens to us happens because of our choices.
It all boils down to energy, what we see is just a manifestation of energy..
My friend, our eyes are blinded by a curtain, wait to meet "God" and then see for yourself how much you love God, I experienced this love, is infinite, you will give everything and anything to stay in that eternal love. This curtain is called "ignorance".
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Wow, that is exactly what I believe about the Soul (Spirit) and that is what my religion teaches. Although my religion teaches that the nature of the soul is a mystery that the mind of no man can ever hope to unravel, much has been written about the function of the soul and its eternal destination. Here is one of my various descriptions of the soul that I post when people ask:
The brain is physical so it dies when we die physically. Our brain does not go with us to the afterlife, which is a spiritual world, not a physical world.
The soul works through the brain and while we are alive on earth in a physical body, but when we die and no longer have a physical body the soul continues to live. It lives forever, and that is why it is called an immortal soul.
The soul is the sum total of the personality so it is the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, after he dies and leaves his physical body behind remains the same person, and he goes to the spiritual world where he continues the life he conducted in the physical world. The soul takes on some kind of a spiritual form made up of elements that exist in the spiritual world.
After we die out spirit (soul) passes into the spiritual world, becomes associated with a spiritual body, and continues to think. Below is an apt description of what I believe happens when we die.
421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351
I call that other world the spiritual world, but there is no real separation, as the spiritual world is within this world.
“Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work, the work of the Kingdom, is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call ‘time and place.’ Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man. Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation.” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, pp. 95-96
Thanks for sharing that. I do not believe that religion saves souls, but rather it is about how we live and how close we are to God, so to the extent that we live as God wants us to live, which I believe has been revealed in the teachings of all the great religions, we will be nearer to heaven.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I fully agree with that because I am a firm believer in free will and the power of choice.
I am sure you are correct about God being love... Most people cannot see through that curtain although some of us have absolute certitude regarding what is on the other side of that curtain. Given much of my life has been fraught with suffering, the following passage has a special meaning to me and I truly believe it will come to pass.
“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329
Interesting, your religion is very similar with christianity... This is what I was told by my Higher Self, that Home is here, that we never left Heaven, that Heaven is here, God is here, everyhwere... It's just we forgot this... I was also answered all the questions I ever had, I was given all the knowledge that existed or will ever exist, I was shown that everything that happened, happened accordingly to some divine plan that everything was perfect, even wars were part of this perfect plan. I was shown that I was/am all people, in one moment I lived all the lives of all the people that ever lived or will ever live..
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, not to my knowledge, but I surmise that anything is possible with and it will be at God's discretion....
Just from a logical point of view I think those who reach out are more likely to get God's mercy, because God has never been one to force His Will on anyone.
That's a very beautiful passage, I love it!
God is infinite love, God's love is so immense that words could never describe this... it makes you feel the most special, the most loved, the most adored... the whole attention of God is on you, the whole love of God is on you, the whole care of God is for you, it's a love that........ when you are there, you wish to never come back here again, hence why those people that have a NDE do not want to come back, this is why!!! You drink this love, you smell this love, you touch this love, this love is touching you to the deepest parts of your being.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Wow, your experience sounds somewhat similar to what came through this medium which is written in this little book entitled Private Dowding. I thought I had posted some excerpts from this book to you before but there are so many posters in this forum sometimes I lose track. Anyhow, below are a couple of excerpts from this book that align with what you said. You can read the whole book online, it is not very long.
“The spiritual world is everywhere. The life of spirit is eternal, perfect, supreme. We humans hide from the light. We grovel among the illusions created by our thoughts. We surround ourselves with misconceptions. We refuse to rise into the Christ Sphere. The Christ Sphere is everywhere, and yet, by some strange paradox, we were able to shut it out from view. All these thoughts were new to me. I begin to see what is meant. If I did not do so, I could not pass the ideas on. You say these thoughts are quite familiar to you. I am surprised at this. What a little world I have been living in!
This Messenger evidently came from the Christ Sphere. Religion never meant much to me. Now I begin to see that one cannot live without it. A great deal was said about reflection; how we can clear out our own poor thoughts illusions and. allow the Christ power to reflect through us. Evidently this power is wonderful. The Messenger seemed to love to speak of it; yet he was in awe of it. It clears away illusions as the sun clears away fog. He said I am still living in a fog, a fog of my own creation and design. Well! well! Once I thought I knew a lot. Then I was sure I knew a little. Now I know I know nothing.” Private Dowding, pp. 28-29
“One other thought I wish to leave with you. The Messenger told me that we have entered the period of period of revelations. The childhood of the race is nearly over. Vast spiritual purifying powers are waiting to be poured forth. Create vessels for this purpose! Make yourself a vessel that you may receive the gift of the Spirit. You will then require no teaching from outside. Revelation will come to you from within. Retire into the Hall of Silence. Think on these things. Think on these things.” Private Dowding, pp. 38-39
A perfect description of what I also experienced... I have to study this too! We keep this curtain over our eyes... we are not true to ourselves... we run from ourselves.. we hide ourselves in ideas, in thoughts, in concepts... we have fabricated an "I" to identify with so that we can keep running from ourselves.
I achieved a degree of union with this Higher Self for about a week or so, in all this time, my live improved 1000 times... then I lost the connection because I returned to the old me and I am still stuck with the old me.. long road to Home when you are here, there, you are already Home.
My life too so I understand you. Suffering made me to ask God day and night to come to me and help me understand the nature of reality, years after years of asking God on and on and on and on... going to sleep hoping that maybe God is going to finally answer... and the answer came exactly when I did not expect it and in a way that I did not expect at all.