can you proove there isn't a deity?

[Meow Mix]

Actually there are scholars who suggest there is proof of a deity. I do not agree and never use their arguments but allow they may be right. I will post one, but I do not think it persuasive. I have subjective proof personally by experiencing God and have no need of semantic exercises but non-theists seem to love them so here is one.

1. God is defined by the Bible and philosophy as a Omni-maximal being. The greatest conceivable being. He is non-contingent (necessary) and has all great making properties.
2. The stupid but often used multiverse concept has a potential infinite number of universes. If it is true at all then there is no finite restriction on the number of them.
3. If an infinite number of universes exist then all possibilities exist in at least one universe.
4. That means that every not impossible being or concept is present in at least one.
5. God is not impossible.
6. God must exist in at least one universe.
7. If he exists in one and is an optimal being he must exist in all.
8. God exists in all universes.

The multiverse argument is ridiculous but far from being an argument against God if true it proves God exists. I reject arguments that depend on semantic technicalities used by non-theists so this one is just for fun.

You've presented Alvin Plantinga's modal ontological argument, which even Plantinga rejects. It hinges on modal axiom S5 (that possibly necessarily --> necessarily); but the problem is that the argument assumes the antecedent, so it's actually just circular.

As for "semantic technicalities," this is a puzzling rejection. If you aren't interested in testing definitions for internal and external consistency, then that's simply the same thing as being uninterested in reason.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

If you aren't interested in testing definitions for internal and external consistency, then that's simply the same thing as being uninterested in reason.

Who needs reason when you've got Truth?

 

[Copernicus]

We have sentience yes. But sentience itself is not evidence of a sentient creator. It is evidence of sentience itself. So long as you describe you "god" as the general concept of "sentience" and not a supernatural creator with all power then yes we can conclude that senteience exists and you have labled it god. But any descriptor past that isn't conclusivly (or even remotely) established because sentience itself exists .

Then it follows your stance must include....substance begets spirit....
and spirit cannot exist without having been born....
and all of life is terminal without continuance.

All of life as chemistry.

That is putting it in more absolutist terms than most atheists prefer, but a great many, if not most, believe that physical brain activity sustains our thought and that the mind (or "spirit") ceases to exist when the brain dies. It does appear that one can explain all life as "chemistry", in a manner of speaking. As for whether thought could exist independently on some "spiritual plane of existence", there appears to be no good reason to believe that. So those who hold religious beliefs explicitly invoke "faith" to maintain those beliefs.

 

[ladybug77]

That is putting it in more absolutist terms than most atheists prefer, but a great many, if not most, believe that physical brain activity sustains our thought and that the mind (or "spirit") ceases to exist when the brain dies. It does appear that one can explain all life as "chemistry", in a manner of speaking. As for whether thought could exist independently on some "spiritual plane of existence", there appears to be no good reason to believe that. So those who hold religious beliefs explicitly invoke "faith" to maintain those beliefs.

But energy cant just 'cease' to exist...just saying. And i have a few honest questions: if Atheists dont believe in life after death...what is there to live for? That seems like an awfully lonely existence.

And then are Atheists afraid to die?

Also...do Atheist believe that 'something' created humans. Whether we are just made from stardust, or a supreme being...thats not the question...one way or another...we were created non the less right?

 

[metis]

And i have a few honest questions: if Atheists dont believe in life after death...what is there to live for? That seems like an awfully lonely existence.

I'm not an atheist, but I am agnostic, so let me deal with these questions.

Were you ever a kid who just was thrilled to go out and play and be with friends? Did you have to have some concept of heaven to enjoy yourself? I certainly didn't. My feeling is to enjoy life and help others to do much the same.

And then are Atheists afraid to die?

At 68 years young, one thing I've discovered since I've seen so many family and friends die that there are some things worse than death. No, I am not afraid to die, although it's not high on my list of things to do.

Also...do Atheist believe that 'something' created humans. Whether we are just made from stardust, or a supreme being...thats not the question...one way or another...we were created non the less right?

I don't know what ultimately "created" us, and I'm well aware that there are questions we may not be able to answer. If there's something after death, fine; but if not, so be it.

 

[McBell]

if Atheists dont believe in life after death...what is there to live for? That seems like an awfully lonely existence.

The now.

And then are Atheists afraid to die?

I am not.
I have come to terms with the fact that I will die.
I have come to terms that when I die that will be the end.
I do not know if that is true any more than those who believe in an afterlife actually know there is an afterlife, but I have come to terms with it.

Also...do Atheist believe that 'something' created humans. Whether we are just made from stardust, or a supreme being...thats not the question...one way or another...we were created non the less right?

Why do you assume humans were created?
I do not cloud the issue with that assumption.

Now if someone was to present something that convinced me that humans were created, then so be it.
But thus far all I have heard is people presenting their beliefs as fact thinking that it is convincing to someone outside their choir.

Though I think it should not have to be stated:

I do not speak for all atheists.
I speak only for myself.
Any and all agreement by others with my statements is completely accidental and unintentional.​

 

[sossy]

You cannot assert anything with certainty, whether it is the existence or non existence of god...

 

[metis]

You cannot assert anything with certainty, whether it is the existence or non existence of god...

Amen.

 

[McBell]

You cannot assert anything with certainty, whether it is the existence or non existence of god...

I disagree.
People assert things all the time.
Some with absolute certainty.

Asserting something with certainty does not make the something asserted correct, merely that someone is certain about it.

 

[ladybug77]

Lets try looking at it from a different perspective... There didnt HAVE to be a beginning. There didnt HAVE to be anything.

Remember this silly question?: if a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound??* is there a 'correct' answer?

*It depends on how you answer this silly question...as to whether or not you will understand my next point. (And its not a 'silly' question at all really.)*

So if matter, and space, and the universe exist...but nothing has enough thought or awareness to acknowledge it...is it even there?*

May we let go of the word 'God' momentarily.??..and think about this: the very first conscience thought...the original ah-hah! Moment. Even if the universe already existed...it takes two to tango. The acknowledger didnt 'create' the universe...but since it was the first awareness of it...it now 'truly' exist.*

The tree in the forest exist already...no one is around to hear it fall...so yes...it makes a sound. Its metaphorical to a 'level 1' existence. It reaches a true and COMPLETE 'level 2' existence...when awareness is around to scientifically test.

So this 'God' we search for...could quite possibly be 'conscience'. Oddly enough...the word 'conscience'...means: 'with science'.

Another logical reason this could be true is that we are: 'made in God's image'Translate: we are made conscience, (God) in seeing. (Image). (Suggestions are open...its not exact.)*

'Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image'...if 'God' is 'conscience'...its impossible to create an image of the very thing that sees. Its like having no mirror, and trying to stare yourself in the eye.

Perhaps this is the reason the commandment is there? So we dont worship false idols? (If this idea speaks truth...it makes the first two commandments impossible to defy.)(if you want to believe in the commandments at all...im just providing something to reflect on.)

Is there anything wrong with being grateful for life?? Would life really exist if we were not aware of it??Does it make it wrong or right to say: 'whoever or whatever gave me my life. Thank you.' ?? (Even if whatever it was (or is) knows we are greatful or not.)
We are ALL conscience. Even Atheists...the only difference there is whether or not you choose to believe the conscience actually contains a 'spirit'. Thats when faith comes in.

We are all 'conscience'...it makes us all equals. (And no one is obligated to branch out from that if they dont wish too.)*Is this not reason enough?? At the very least...we should ponder my point...and respect that i made a decent effort to explain it clearly.

And living in the now is a great concept! We dont have to call it 'God'...we dont even have to worship it...its inside us.
Would it not be vain to worship ourselves?? I think so. Maybe worship is exaggerated?? More or less...we should acknowledge each other. That seems a little more righteous no??

Now...you can have the word 'God' back...i know we are all emotionally attacted to it. So am I. ...but if ya love it...let it go. If it comes back to you...you know its real.

 

[sossy]

It seem the criteria for maximally great are sort of subjective, aren't they ?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But energy cant just 'cease' to exist...just saying. And i have a few honest questions: if Atheists dont believe in life after death...what is there to live for? That seems like an awfully lonely existence.

You're free to live for whatever you want.

Funny... I tend to see many typical theistic outlooks as rather bleak: if God's going to swoop down and fix every problem on Earth, what's the point of doing anything? If we live in Leibnitz's "best of all possible worlds", or if even if this universe is the expression of the will of an almighty deity, then how can you have any hope of making things better than they are?

I gather that people who believe in God have hope and purpose in their lives, but I don't see how I could get there from my perspective.

 

[Uberpod]

Can you prove with a 100% certainty that I am not you from the future??

 

[psychoslice]

Can you prove with a 100% certainty that I am not you from the future??

That's it, ask a silly question and what do you expect lol.

 

[ladybug77]

You're free to live for whatever you want.

Funny... I tend to see many typical theistic outlooks as rather bleak: if God's going to swoop down and fix every problem on Earth, what's the point of doing anything? If we live in Leibnitz's "best of all possible worlds", or if even if this universe is the expression of the will of an almighty deity, then how can you have any hope of making things better than they are?

I gather that people who believe in God have hope and purpose in their lives, but I don't see how I could get there from my perspective.

I encourage you to read my last post. I have hope that things will get better. but...its not by an almighty God doing magical things. Its US working together.

Im a living oxy-moron! I believe in 'God' ...without believing in 'God'.
To me...all religion has truth...i accept all religion...and still hold firm to my own.

How is that possible?? Because i believe in everyone.

Read my prior post...it explains it the best i know how to explain at the moment.

 

[ladybug77]

It seem the criteria for maximally great are sort of subjective, aren't they ?

They are only subjective, until we find something we can all agree upon...there IS a common ground in all this chaos though.

 

[McBell]

They are only subjective, until we find something we can all agree upon...there IS a common ground in all this chaos though.

It matters not how many people agree with subjectivity.
It is still subjectivity.

 

[ladybug77]

It matters not how many people agree with subjectivity.
It is still subjectivity.

Let me rephrase...as you missed my point.

It only subjectivity...until we ALL find common ground...then it is NO LONGER subjective.

Did anyone bother to read my post explaining our common ground??

The actual thing we all have in common...requires no subjectivity. To branch, and build upon is when subjectivity comes into play.

 

[ladybug77]

Lets try looking at it from a different perspective... There didnt HAVE to be a beginning. There didnt HAVE to be anything.

Remember this silly question?: if a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound??* is there a 'correct' answer?

*It depends on how you answer this silly question...as to whether or not you will understand my next point. (And its not a 'silly' question at all really.)*

So if matter, and space, and the universe exist...but nothing has enough thought or awareness to acknowledge it...is it even there?*

May we let go of the word 'God' momentarily.??..and think about this: the very first conscience thought...the original ah-hah! Moment. Even if the universe already existed...it takes two to tango. The acknowledger didnt 'create' the universe...but since it was the first awareness of it...it now 'truly' exist.*

The tree in the forest exist already...no one is around to hear it fall...so yes...it makes a sound. Its metaphorical to a 'level 1' existence. It reaches a true and COMPLETE 'level 2' existence...when awareness is around to scientifically test.

So this 'God' we search for...could quite possibly be 'conscience'. Oddly enough...the word 'conscience'...means: 'with science'.

Another logical reason this could be true is that we are: 'made in God's image'Translate: we are made conscience, (God) in seeing. (Image). (Suggestions are open...its not exact.)*

'Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image'...if 'God' is 'conscience'...its impossible to create an image of the very thing that sees. Its like having no mirror, and trying to stare yourself in the eye.

Perhaps this is the reason the commandment is there? So we dont worship false idols? (If this idea speaks truth...it makes the first two commandments impossible to defy.)(if you want to believe in the commandments at all...im just providing something to reflect on.)

Is there anything wrong with being grateful for life?? Would life really exist if we were not aware of it??Does it make it wrong or right to say: 'whoever or whatever gave me my life. Thank you.' ?? (Even if whatever it was (or is) knows we are greatful or not.)
We are ALL conscience. Even Atheists...the only difference there is whether or not you choose to believe the conscience actually contains a 'spirit'. Thats when faith comes in.

We are all 'conscience'...it makes us all equals. (And no one is obligated to branch out from that if they dont wish too.)*Is this not reason enough?? At the very least...we should ponder my point...and respect that i made a decent effort to explain it clearly.

And living in the now is a great concept! We dont have to call it 'God'...we dont even have to worship it...its inside us.
Would it not be vain to worship ourselves?? I think so. Maybe worship is exaggerated?? More or less...we should acknowledge each other. That seems a little more righteous no??

Now...you can have the word 'God' back...i know we are all emotionally attacted to it. So am I. ...but if ya love it...let it go. If it comes back to you...you know its real.

^^^anyone willing to discuss?^^^

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I encourage you to read my last post. I have hope that things will get better. but...its not by an almighty God doing magical things. Its US working together.

Im a living oxy-moron! I believe in 'God' ...without believing in 'God'.
To me...all religion has truth...i accept all religion...and still hold firm to my own.

How is that possible?? Because i believe in everyone.

Read my prior post...it explains it the best i know how to explain at the moment.

I find your last post rather rambling and difficult to follow. I'm not sure what you think it explains.