Canada anti-islamophobia motion M103

[icehorse]

This tilting at windmills isn't going to solve any problems.

I'm sorry, not giving an inch on secular freedoms isn't tilting at windmills. We've gone around on this point several times, and I think we ought to agree to disagree.

I believe that the way liberties get reduced is through a series of tiny incursions. You disagree, so be it.

 

[icehorse]

What societies? How would you judge those societies? By what their leaders dictate? Because, I for one wouldn't want to be judged by what our President says and does.

Muslim majority societies. And no, not only by what their leaders dictate. More, they should be assessed based on the state of the societies themselves. I would encourage you to read some of Ibn Warraq's work.

 

[Augustus]

I believe that the way liberties get reduced is through a series of tiny incursions.

You actually need a tiny incursion though. Where is the tiny incursion in this instance?

A non-binding study by non-Muslims on discrimination? Perhaps their findings will mirror your own.

 

[icehorse]

You actually need a tiny incursion though. Where is the tiny incursion in this instance?

A non-binding study by non-Muslims on discrimination? Perhaps their findings will mirror your own.

At a minimum, the intentionally dishonest and dangerous term "Islamophobia" has been further normalized by this motion.

Augustus, would you agree that the naming of things is extremely consequential?

 

[Augustus]

At a minimum, the intentionally dishonest and dangerous term "Islamophobia" has been further normalized by this motion.

Augustus, would you agree that the naming of things is extremely consequential?

If you search RF for Islamophobia and Augustus you will find my clearly stated dislike of the term (and all -phobia for prejudice words). Also how there has been a concerted campaign by Gulf countries via Western PR agencies to use it as a shield.

I would prefer a term like anti-Muslim bigotry as Islamophobia can be used to stifle criticism and because it allows genuine bigots to pretend they are engaging in legitimate criticism.

That said, it is the commonly used term as used by the vast majority of Western politicians of all ilks. As such, when you infer an ulterior motive to its use simply because a Muslim uses the term this is inconsistent and unfair.

Just because the term can be misused, doesn't mean that everybody using it is doing so for nefarious reasons. Anti-Muslim bigotry does exist after all.

So it would be prudent to look for evidence of further intent behind its use before casting aspersions.

 

[icehorse]

So it would be prudent to look for evidence of further intent behind its use before casting aspersions.

I think it's abundantly fair to hold our politicians' words - especially their written words - to extremely high standards. Even a lowly "motion" should be crafted carefully.

I'll given you another example - tangential to this discussion in some ways, but perhaps useful:

We in the U.S. should raise a ruckus every time a politician calls SS an "entitlement". This is another dishonest term, and it's used BECAUSE it helps profiteering politicians further their agenda.

 

[Notanumber]

This what a moderate Muslim thought about what should happen the Salman Rushdie.

Others such as Iqbal Sacranie, the future head of the Muslim Council of Britain who was later knighted by the Blair government for services to community relations, went further, and said that death was “perhaps a bit too easy” for Rushdie.

Today everyone wants to defend Salman Rushdie. It was not always like

Does everyone want to defend Salman Rushdie today?

http://www.indexoncensorship.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/salil_tripathi_satanic_verses.pdf

 

[leibowde84]

Muslim majority societies. And no, not only by what their leaders dictate. More, they should be assessed based on the state of the societies themselves. I would encourage you to read some of Ibn Warraq's work.

"Ibn Warraq is the pen name of an anonymous author critical of Islam. He is the founder of the Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Society (ISIS)"
- On a lighter note, you must agree that this is ironically hilarious.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

"Ibn Warraq is the pen name of an anonymous author critical of Islam. He is the founder of the Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Society (ISIS)"
- On a lighter note, you must agree that this is ironically hilarious.

It totally is.

 

[icehorse]

"Ibn Warraq is the pen name of an anonymous author critical of Islam. He is the founder of the Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Society (ISIS)"
- On a lighter note, you must agree that this is ironically hilarious.

I didn't know about his version of ISIS

But I don't think he's anonymous? I've seen youtubes of him presenting ideas to audiences?

But the point is, he is a good thinker and he has an insider's knowledge of Islamic societies.

 

[psychoslice]

I agree. I guess where we part ways is that I see practically all Muslims who are trying to come to our country, especially refugees, are coming to enjoy our way of life. Opportunities, freedom, safety, respect, etc.

Yes that is what they hope for, but then because of their belief system they then realize that they cannot except our ways, it goes against their beliefs, so in their hearts they think they are doing the right thing of not excepting our ways.

 

[Alison Wonderland]

I think those are already in place in Canadian law.

And enshrined in our Constitution, yes.

Really? That's good. I just hope you're not referring to crimes that are already legislated against; rather violent crimes that are aggravated by a religious-based motivation.

Good for Canada. Seems like countries like Germany need to get onto something similar as quickly as possible.

 

[leibowde84]

Yes that is what they hope for, but then because of their belief system they then realize that they cannot except our ways, it goes against their beliefs, so in their hearts they think they are doing the right thing of not excepting our ways.

I would hope they are willing to change their beliefs if they are so contradictory to our way of life.

 

[psychoslice]

I would hope they are willing to change their beliefs if they are so contradictory to our way of life.

Yes, its the only way we can all live together, its not working right now but, but who knows what the near future holds.

 

[UpperLimits]

I'm sorry you feel that way. Generally, though, we are okay with it. M-103 is not an idea "cooked up Liberals," it's.....

According to a poll by Forum Research, the motion has the support of only 14% of Canadians.

Over 100,000 people have signed online petitions against the motion. (That's a lot considering the general apathy of Canadians in regards to these things anyways.)

And there have been protests against the motion from coast to coast.

No. I'm afraid it's not all lollypops and roses - except maybe in Liberal La-La Land. Enjoy!

 

[UpperLimits]

So, due to the slippery slope argument, we shouldn't allow studies on racial/religious prejudice, as this non-binding motion asks for?

Would there be any problems if the motion was to set aside until AFTER INDEPENDENT studies were done, and those studies demonstrated that there was a genuine warrant for such a motion to be put forward for consideration as a bill of law?

This motions is basically putting the cart before the horse. We have had mass shootings in Canada before. NONE of them have resulted in this kind of kneejerk reaction. It wasn't necessary then. It's certainly not necessary now.

 

[idav]

I didn't know about his version of ISIS

But I don't think he's anonymous? I've seen youtubes of him presenting ideas to audiences?

But the point is, he is a good thinker and he has an insider's knowledge of Islamic societies.

Do you really think they really hate our land of capitalism and half naked women? They might say that to their multiple wives but I have my suspicions.

 

[UpperLimits]

I would prefer a term like anti-Muslim bigotry as Islamophobia can be used to stifle criticism and because it allows genuine bigots to pretend they are engaging in legitimate criticism.

Now, that particular terminology I could at least tolerate. The word "bigotry" can at least be refined down to a proper understanding of its religious component. "Islamophobia," whatever that's supposed to mean, is a fluent term whose understanding exists only in the eye of the beholder.

I think the main part of the difficulty in this issue results from the fact that the Muslim world view is a complete ideological package. It touches on all aspects of life from political ideas, to dietary laws, to clothing and conduct, to education and social life, all wrapped up under one religious banner. It's simply not possible to legitimately criticize any part of that structure without some uninformed person trying to paste some label onto you.

Frankly, I don't give a rats patoot what they think about their god, or their prophet. But I am deeply concerned about many of their social aspects; especially their insistence in forcing their value system on western society. Western society exists simply because we have the value system and social structure that we have. Take that away, or even significantly damage that social fabric - and we don't have a western society anymore.

 

[icehorse]

I didn't know about his version of ISIS

But I don't think he's anonymous? I've seen youtubes of him presenting ideas to audiences?

But the point is, he is a good thinker and he has an insider's knowledge of Islamic societies.

Do you really think they really hate our land of capitalism and half naked women? They might say that to their multiple wives but I have my suspicions.

No, but I think many have been indoctrinated to push for Sharia. It's not totally logical or even conscious, it's an after-effect of indoctrination.

 

[UpperLimits]

... in the resistance to Canadian values and denigration of the Canadian image in support of the idea that the Prime Minister is somehow stupid. Trust me, Canadians have no problem with M-103, especially as IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING.

I'll tell you what.... JT is in a panic at the moment. Flying all all over the country at taxpayers expense for Liberal party campaign interests. (Conflict of interest, anyone?).

There are 5 by-elections scheduled. This is about the closest thing we have in Canada for any type of recall legislation. The concept of recall has been pushed for over 2 decades by conservatives, but the Liberals keep quashing any attempts to implement one.

The 2 are out west and are practically guaranteed to go Conservative. But there are 3 Liberal ridings up for grabs down east. One is mainly government workers and fellow cronies, so it will probably stay Liberal. (It's been that way since the mid 1930's, so why change tradition?) But the other 2 are anybody's guess. Recent events have changed A LOT of Canadians view of the Liberal party. I think these by-elections should be a good indication of the attitudes of Canadians toward JT and his government's agenda. Even if none of the seats change their current hands, the numbers will be interesting. Let's wait until Monday and see what happens.