Capitalist competition is about increasing profits, not value for consumers.

[Revoltingest]

It's not like the financial burden for Canadian healthcare all falls on one dude living in Alberta. Everyone agrees to just chip in a little bit based on their income and *poof* quality healthcare whenever you need it. How is this different from insurance except in that the money doesn't go to individual businessmen who can reject people willy nilly, and in that the poor now have access to medicine?

But ultimately, each productive Canuckistanian must pay into the system. Force is implicit.
I don't say that this is right or wrong, just that it involves coercion.
A question arises, are the benefits of this coercion worthwhile? Tis not for me to answer.

ou would agree that there are truths about human nature right? I mean, humans all eat, breathe, and drink water; so it would stand to reason that every human should have a right to access food, clean air, and drinking water.

Interesting......this sounds vaguely Ayn Randian.
It's a compelling perspective (which we might largely share), but I don't call it "universal moral truth".

 

[Revoltingest]

Actually, I am that dude, and I don't mind.
I pay more in taxes every year then the average Canadian earns, and I don't complain a bit. I am still fantastically well off, and it's a cheap price to pay to be surrounded by hockey, beer, and unbelievably hot Alberta girls. You gotta see this place! It's like Spring Garden Road in summer all year round!

As I covered with Reptileguy, this is a reasonable system to adopt.
But we must face the fact that coercion is used, even if it isn't felt by those who happily pay.
Decide not to pay, & one would be brought at gunpoint to a small jail cell.
I just favor minimal coercion to achieve whatever goals we set for ourselves.

 

[Wirey]

But ultimately, each productive Canuckistanian must pay into the system. Force is implicit.
I don't say that this is right or wrong, just that it involves coercion.
A question arises, are the benefits of this coercion worthwhile? Tis not for me to answer.

Interesting......this sounds vaguely Ayn Randian.
It's a compelling perspective (which we might largely share), but I don't call it "universal moral truth".

To be honest, I feel better about this than being coerced to pay for the invasion of foreign countries. Our health care benefits us, and guarantees you won't get plowed under financially by bad luck. My tumour would have cost me my house in the US. Actually, I would probably have allowed myself to die before I made my family homeless. How many people would be willing to pay a little extra tax for that kind of peace of mind? Especially if it was for every single person you knew?

Instead, you pay more than us in health insurance, and have less coverage. If your government is allowing corporations to do that to you, I think coercion might be the right word, just not in the way that you think.

 

[Revoltingest]

To be honest, I feel better about this than being coerced to pay for the invasion of foreign countries.

You vicious lily livered @*$@^^!!!!!!!
You just had to rub it in, didn't you?

Our health care benefits us, and guarantees you won't get plowed under financially by bad luck. My tumour would have cost me my house in the US. Actually, I would probably have allowed myself to die before I made my family homeless. How many people would be willing to pay a little extra tax for that kind of peace of mind? Especially if it was for every single person you knew?
Instead, you pay more than us in health insurance, and have less coverage. If your government is allowing corporations to do that to you, I think coercion might be the right word, just not in the way that you think.

I don't dispute that your system is better than ours.
Just cuz Revoltingistan is within the USA doesn't mean that I hold the USA up as a positive example.

 

[Wirey]

You vicious lily livered @*$@^^!!!!!!!
You just had to rub it in, didn't you?


I don't dispute that your system is better than ours.
Just cuz Revoltingistan is within the USA doesn't mean that I hold the USA up as a positive example.

Sorry, but my underwear are riding up, and someone is going to pay!

I find Americans, particularly Americans with Republican leanings, see taxes as this horrific example of governmental overbearance. Then they dress up like George Washington (see: Whiskey Rebellion) and go to rallies.

Taxes are a necessity. And a tax that ends with every single citizen better off than they were before is not a burden, it's a blessing. It's a sure sign that the government in question is looking out for the best interests of it's citizens, and not allowing an outside interest to line their pockets at the expense of those same citizens.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the US, you're required to wear a seatbelt, you can't legally purchase transfats, but it's acceptable to be unable to get decent, adequate medical care. Is that statement correct?

 

[Alceste]

Actually, I am that dude, and I don't mind.

I pay more in taxes every year then the average Canadian earns, and I don't complain a bit. I am still fantastically well off, and it's a cheap price to pay to be surrounded by hockey, beer, and unbelievably hot Alberta girls. You gotta see this place! It's like Spring Garden Road in summer all year round!

In that case, thank you Wirey, for your help looking after my family in Calgary. Some of then are pretty heavy users of that health care system.

But ultimately, each productive Canuckistanian must pay into the system. Force is implicit.
I don't say that this is right or wrong, just that it involves coercion.
A question arises, are the benefits of this coercion worthwhile? Tis not for me to answer.

Interesting......this sounds vaguely Ayn Randian.
It's a compelling perspective (which we might largely share), but I don't call it "universal moral truth".

If you want any service, private or public, there will always be some kind of coercion involved in getting it. My internet and cell phone providers coerce me to pay them a hundred bucks a month, with threats to cut me off from the world, those curs! The gas station coerces me to pay for every single fill-up, threatening to make me walk 20km to work with a guitar, fiddle, ukelele and mandolin! Those criminals!

If you need stuff, you have to pay for it somehow. Taxes are the cheapest way to pay for stuff we all need. In a democracy, you can't really call it coercion when everybody wants to pay for certain stuff with their taxes. We could elect a free market extremist who would wipe out taxes and privatize everything if that's what we wanted.

 

[Revoltingest]

I find Americans, particularly Americans with Republican leanings, see taxes as this horrific example of governmental overbearance. Then they dress up like George Washington (see: Whiskey Rebellion) and go to rallies.

Republicans like taxes, despite their protestations. It might seem that they're anti-tax, but that's a result of partisan sniping at the other side, who simply wants taxes to be even higher.
Besides, it's fun to dress up as George......think of it as cross dressing, but butchier.

Taxes are a necessity. And a tax that ends with every single citizen better off than they were before is not a burden, it's a blessing. It's a sure sign that the government in question is looking out for the best interests of it's citizens, and not allowing an outside interest to line their pockets at the expense of those same citizens.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the US, you're required to wear a seatbelt, you can't legally purchase transfats, but it's acceptable to be unable to get decent, adequate medical care. Is that statement correct?

We are a conflicted country.
Note:
Even libertarians generally believe that government & revenue to support it are necessary.
We all just argue about the form & extent.

 

[Revoltingest]

If you want any service, private or public, there will always be some kind of coercion involved in getting it.

Perhaps you didn't notice, but I've been saying this too.
Coercion is like entropy, ie, it cannot be eliminated.
I favor minimizing both.

 

[Reptillian]

Actually, I am that dude, and I don't mind.

I pay more in taxes every year then the average Canadian earns, and I don't complain a bit. I am still fantastically well off, and it's a cheap price to pay to be surrounded by hockey, beer, and unbelievably hot Alberta girls. You gotta see this place! It's like Spring Garden Road in summer all year round!

I'm sure your fellow Canadians thank you for your sacrifice.

If I ever flee the USA for Canada, I know where I'll go now. Winnipeg, Manitoba is out! I think I could put up with the hockey (it can't be any worse than American football) I love beer and hot girls...though how can you tell that they're hot with all those layers of winter clothing?

But ultimately, each productive Canuckistanian must pay into the system. Force is implicit.
I don't say that this is right or wrong, just that it involves coercion.
A question arises, are the benefits of this coercion worthwhile? Tis not for me to answer.

Interesting......this sounds vaguely Ayn Randian.
It's a compelling perspective (which we might largely share), but I don't call it "universal moral truth".

Are you against taxes in general? Because I could refuse to pay any taxes and end up in the slammer. There are numerous safety laws that businesses could refuse to follow that would land their owners in prison, is that coercion?

As for natural rights, I think there were some philosophers who were in favor of natural rights, but that also rejected absolute moral truth. Thomas Hobbes comes to mind.

 

[Revoltingest]

Are you against taxes in general?

No.

Because I could refuse to pay any taxes and end up in the slammer. There are numerous safety laws that businesses could refuse to follow that would land their owners in prison, is that coercion?

Yes.

As for natural rights, I think there were some philosophers who were in favor of natural rights, but that also rejected absolute moral truth. Thomas Hobbes comes to mind.

That is one perspective. But I distrust the word "natural" as murky & schizophrenic.
(It reminds me of arguments against homosexuality.)

To reiterate, coercion will be unavoidable.
But I prefer to minimize it, & employ it only where necessary & of great benefit.
Government here is far bigger than necessary. Cut it back, & we reduce coercion.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems that some want to interpret my position to be even more extreme than it is.

 

[Wirey]

I'm sure your fellow Canadians thank you for your sacrifice.

I'm sure they don't. It's not really a sacrifice. It's part of being a member, like Costco, only without the 50 lb bags of chips.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm sure they don't. It's not really a sacrifice.

You're probably a net beneficiary. If you had to use your own money to pay for brain surgery, penile implants, face
lifts, orthopedic hats & curing all those women of......oh, I forgot....what happens in Winnipeg stays in Winnipeg.

 

[Wirey]

You're probably a net beneficiary. If you had to use your own money to pay for brain surgery, penile implants, face
lifts, orthopedic hats & curing all those women of......oh, I forgot....what happens in Winnipeg stays in Winnipeg.

True. But I still wouldn't mind paying in. Being Canadian is pretty cheap, when you get right down to it. Although I heard gas just hit $1.53 in Quebec.

 

[Reptillian]

No.

Yes.

That is one perspective. But I distrust the word "natural" as murky & schizophrenic.
(It reminds me of arguments against homosexuality.)

To reiterate, coercion will be unavoidable.
But I prefer to minimize it, & employ it only where necessary & of great benefit.
Government here is far bigger than necessary. Cut it back, & we reduce coercion.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems that some want to interpret my position to be even more extreme than it is.

Unfortunately for those that argue homosexuality is unnatural, that's simply untrue. I stand by the natural rights phrase...simply because they're rights that follow from our nature as thinking social life forms. The purpose of government should be to secure these rights in the best possible way.

If people or businesses are being coerced to do something that is beneficial to themselves and others, then I don't see that as a problem.

 

[Revoltingest]

Unfortunately for those that argue homosexuality is unnatural, that's simply untrue. I stand by the natural rights phrase...simply because they're rights that follow from our nature as thinking social life forms. The purpose of government should be to secure these rights in the best possible way.

OK.

If people or businesses are being coerced to do something that is beneficial to themselves and others, then I don't see that as a problem.

If a fair & intelligent balance is struck between minimum coercion & maximum benefit, then I've no problem either.
Now, all we need to do is elect leaders capable of doing this well. Therein lies our problem.

 

[Reptillian]

If a fair & intelligent balance is struck between minimum coercion & maximum benefit, then I've no problem either.
Now, all we need to do is elect leaders capable of doing this well. Therein lies our problem.

With technologies like the internet, I don't see electing good leaders to be much of a problem. (in fact, do we even need representatives in an age with almost instant communication and all the world's knowledge at our fingertips?) The problem is trying to motivate the general population into acting and actually caring about their future.

"all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed"

 

[Revoltingest]

With technologies like the internet, I don't see electing good leaders to be much of a problem. (in fact, do we even need representatives in an age with almost instant communication and all the world's knowledge at our fingertips?) The problem is trying to motivate the general population into acting and actually caring about their future.

"all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed"

Communication as the cure?
Let me disabuse you of that illusion.
(The relevant part is at about 2:10)
[youtube]p5mWQFGF7w8[/youtube]
The Babel Fish - YouTube

 

[Reptillian]

Communication as the cure?
Let me disabuse you of that illusion.
(The relevant part is at about 2:10)

Nice..so you're saying that all societies are fundamentally screwed up due to human nature?

My point was that we don't need representatives, (or politicians at all really) if individuals can represent themselves using properly organized technology. Imagine law writing and bill proposing software that does so based on individual's proposals and votes taken in real time online...not in a clumsy annual system through representatives.

 

[Revoltingest]

Nice..so you're saying that all societies are fundamentally screwed up due to human nature?

Yep.

My point was that we don't need representatives, (or politicians at all really) if individuals can represent themselves using properly organized technology. Imagine law writing and bill proposing software that does so based on individual's proposals and votes taken in real time online...not in a clumsy annual system through representatives.

I sympathize with your efforts to improve things.
I just don't see any magic bullet which will cure the fundamental problem....people.
Good system design can mitigate the problems though.

 

[Reptillian]

Yep.


I sympathize with your efforts to improve things.
I just don't see any magic bullet which will cure the fundamental problem....people.
Good system design can mitigate the problems though.

I agree with you about human nature. If we're not able to overcome these innate problems, our species is very likely to cause it's own extinction within the next century or two. I guess I'm an optimist in hoping that these problems can be eliminated.