Cardinal Pell and Evolution

[Subduction Zone]

I believe it is not a good analogy.

I believe language changes but I do not see it as evolution. As an analogy: Language can't evolve into telepathy.

I believe it doesn't work. I believe in biological changes but they are not evolution. So my father had black hair and my mother blond but I had light brown hair. That isn't evolution because hair color is still within the range of natural heredity.

Sorry, but it is a perfect analogy. And your analogy on the other hand fails. Here is why it fails. No animal has the ability for telepathy. There is a word to describe your analogy but I might bring down the ban hammer if I use it. But you really should be ashamed of yourself for trying to use such a failed explanation.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm not blind, though you, my friend,
are uneducated.

And do not forget, indoctrinated from the time of birth with threats of hell if he did not believe. His particular sect teaches that education is bad. That is because the leadership understands that education is the enemy of their sect. It is a rather cultlike behavior of the sect that he belongs to.

 

[Audie]

And do not forget, indoctrinated from the time of birth with threats of hell if he did not believe. His particular sect teaches that education is bad. That is because the leadership understands that education is the enemy of their sect. It is a rather cultlike behavior of the sect that he belongs to.

It's always possible that some little thing
will trigger an Epiphany.

One piece of tape ( 2, actually. The guard
ignored the first one ) triggered Watergate.

 

[metis]

Sorry, I don't think that is true and I don't think they have proved their claims are true.

And did you even spend 10 seconds to even inquire? or even 10 minutes to look it up?

 

[1213]

Are you still using that word "proved"? Science doesn't prove. The best it does is demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt,

"Reasonable doubt" sounds very solid. Then you must believe in God, because His existence is demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt, according to many people.

What water level? I'm standing at the foot of Everest, measuring its altitude, and comparing that to last year's measurement.

But, how do you measure it, what is the point from where you take the measurement, is it not sea level? If it is sea level, how do you know it is constant? The whole measurement is relative, if you would decide it is the top of the mountain that is the fixed point, you would get different result and I think more reasonable result.

 

[1213]

I can show how you call your own God a liar by using reliable sources.

No you can't.

 

[1213]

Panda's and grizzly's can't even produce infertile off spring.

how do you know?

Again: try feeding a giant panda with the diet of a grizzly.

Have you done that?

Humans and chimps are more closely related then giant panda's and grizzly's.

Would be nice to see how is that measured.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Thanks for the detailed reply. Your comments have added to my understanding. I'll take a look at the moral influence theory of atonement.

Theology around atonement is another dangerous wormhole.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

how do you know?

Have you done that?

Would be nice to see how is that measured.

It is measured by comparing their genome. Which is now routine and easy to do.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Plants and humans are more similar than you think | Helix

You probably wouldn’t conclude that plants and humans are related just from looking at them. After all, we’re not green!

blog.helix.com

All living things share large amounts of dna. They are all distantly related.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No you can't.

Of course I can. You may run away and hide, but that would be your fault. And that of course would still mean that you are calling your own God a liar. Just because you are willfully ignorant of that fact is not an excuse.

Think of it this way, God knows that you are lying about him and he sent you someone to help you to understand so that you would quit lying. If you ignore the messenger what will your excuses be?

 

[Subduction Zone]

how do you know?

We can measure the differences in genomes and see that no other critters (technical biological term) that are even half that far away from each other can breed successfully.

Have you done that?

No, since I do not advocate animal torture. The panda would not come out very well in such meeting.

Would be nice to see how is that measured.

Again, we can measure how closely to animals are. By comparing their genomes. What is neat is that all of them show that they fit on a "tree of life". You know that some creationists call the "tree of life" a picture. It isn't. The tree of life is how all of the biological evidence organizes life. Not just animals like you and me and the panda bears and the grizzlies. All life. Plants and funguses and bacteria too. They all fit on a tree of life no matter what consistent method of classification one uses.

 

[exchemist]

"Reasonable doubt" sounds very solid. Then you must believe in God, because His existence is demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt, according to many people.

But, how do you measure it, what is the point from where you take the measurement, is it not sea level? If it is sea level, how do you know it is constant? The whole measurement is relative, if you would decide it is the top of the mountain that is the fixed point, you would get different result and I think more reasonable result.

Nowadays the height is measured by GPS, that is, relative to the centre of the earth, which is the fixed point that the satellite orbits about. So changes in sea level don't come into it, even though for reasons of history and convenience the heights are often still quoted relative to a mean sea level. Scientists are not entirely dumb, you see. They have thought about this sort of thing, even if it may come as news to you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nowadays the height is measured by GPS, that is, relative to the centre of the earth, which is the fixed point that the satellite orbits about. So changes in sea level don't come into it, even though for reasons of history and convenience the heights are often still quoted relative to a mean sea level. Scientists are not entirely dumb, you see. They have thought about this sort of thing, even if it may come as news to you.

Hmm, perhaps instead of referring to "mean sea level" they could refer to "nice sea level". People are so much more amenable if one is nice to them. Just trying to help

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I believe it is not a good analogy.

Too bad. It is a perfect analogy.

I believe language changes but I do not see it as evolution. As an analogy: Language can't evolve into telepathy.

I don't care how you see it. It's perfectly analogous.

Accents / language gradually change over the generations.
Go grab an english text from 200 years ago and compare it to a modern text. Notice the difference?
Now grab an english text from 500 years ago and compare it to a modern text. Notice the even bigger differences?
Can you even still call it english?

Go back far enough and a modern english person wouldn't even be able to communicate with them because the difference is just too big.
Now consider that at no point in that entire history, did a non-english speaking mother raise an english speaking child.
Every child ever brought up, spoke the same language as its parents and peers.

And yet, that old germanic non-english language evolved into the english we are talking right now.

Gradual change over time. It works. There is no "first english speaker".

I believe it doesn't work.

Your beliefs are demonstrably wrong.

I believe in biological changes but they are not evolution.

That makes not sense.

So my father had black hair and my mother blond but I had light brown hair. That isn't evolution because hair color is still within the range of natural heredity.

That indeed isn't evolution. That's just stupidity and ignorance masquarading as an argument.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

how do you know?

The same way I know that humans and tigers can't produce fertile off spring.

Have you done that?

I also have never stood in a fire to find out if it would consume me till I die.
You don't need to do everything yourself to have knowledge.

Would be nice to see how is that measured.

Comparative genomics. A science you don't comprehend due to willful ignorance / unwillingness to learn.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

you must believe in God, because His existence is demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt, according to many people

Then they can believe it. I don't believe in gods including God for lack of sufficient supporting evidence.

how do you measure it, what is the point from where you take the measurement, is it not sea level?

Your education is your responsibility. @exchemist gave you an answer. Did you understand it? If not, do some studying. Learn some science, and THEN come back to discuss what you learned. Until then, unknowing is the only possibility for you. You seem fine with that despite your posting questions the answers to which you seem to have no interest in.

And I see that you disregarded my suggestion to you again about presenting your faith-based beliefs as such rather than making incredible claims about using evidence and reason. I can't tell if you understood it or even saw that, but that's fine with me. I offered, and you - I'd say declined, but you didn't actually do that either. I offered. You did nothing. I learned long ago that it is pointless to care about a problem more than the person who has it does.

 

[1213]

Nowadays the height is measured by GPS, that is, relative to the centre of the earth, which is the fixed point that the satellite orbits about.

Thanks, do you have some source for that information?

I don't believe they can measure it very accurately that way.

 

[1213]

Plants and humans are more similar than you think | Helix

You probably wouldn’t conclude that plants and humans are related just from looking at them. After all, we’re not green!

blog.helix.com

All living things share large amounts of dna. They are all distantly related.

All buildings share large amount of atoms, they must be related?

 

[exchemist]

Thanks, do you have some source for that information?

I don't believe they can measure it very accurately that way.

Here's the abstract of an admittedly now rather old (2007) technical article on the subject:

Abstract​

Over recent decades several modern geoinformatic height-finding methods have emerged, including global positioning system (GPS), interferometric radar, and airborne laser scanner (ALS) or lidar. In conjunction with the conventional survey and photogrammetric method, they have found wide applications that demand varying levels of accuracy. In this paper, the principles of each method are briefly summarized. The discussion then concentrates on the accuracy level achievable with each method. The factors that affect the accuracy, wherever possible, are comprehensively evaluated. This review has revealed that the highest accuracy achievable is still with the levelling method, followed by the photogrammetric method. This situation is likely to change in light of real-time kinematic GPS coupled with ALS. In contrast to the imaging methods that are suited to obtain highly accurate, fine-resolution digital elevation models (DEMs) at a local scale, GPS is the most efficient at obtaining heights at spots or along lines accurately. ALS is the only method applicable to acquisition of subsurface heights in vegetated areas. These airborne methods are complementary to their space-borne counterparts, such as Shuttle Radar Topographic Mapping and Shuttle Laser Altimeter, both being ideal in obtaining DEMs at the regional and global scales. The synergistic use of GPS with lidar offers the best hope in obtaining cm-level accuracies essential for monitoring ground subsidence and tectonic uplift. Height measurements accurate to subcentimetres needed for national levelling surveys are possible only after the tropospheric path delay is externally calibrated using Raman lidar data during GPS data analysis.

From: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0309133307087084