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Cartoons Under Fire

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
linwood said:
I never stated it wasn`t a minority but the fact that hundreds of thousands of Muslims use their religious dogma to rationalize extreme violence isn`t made any easier to swallow by knowing there are 1.5 billion who do not.
If everyone used words with care, then we would not have to spend so much time argueing about "many", and "minority", the actual number etc.

If I said "many Americans are gay", without further qualification, any one reading that sentence will likely to conclude that more than half (or roughly to that effect) of Americans are gay.

However, if I said "many Americans are gay, though that forms only a minority of the population of American", then the meaning will be very very clear, no need to put the number in, even though the number of gays could be hundreds of thousands.:D
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
greatcalgarian said:
If everyone use words with care, then we would have not have to spend so much time argueing about "many", and "minority"
Wouldn`t make a difference.
It`s the reading that needs care taken.
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
linwood said:
This cartoon is entirely relevant.

I have seen for the past 10 years the most horrendous anti jewish anti-american anti-western cartoons roll out of the Muslim world on a daily basis.

Cartoons to make what was published in Europe recently look like childrens stories.

This cartoon is entirely relevant as it points out the hypocrisy within the Muslim world.
The West has grown accustomed to sarcasm, ridiculed, blasphemy etc, and has learned to be unable to react to all the anti thingi, i.e., too accustomed to freedom of press, and having read and heard these things almost daily, and has grown immuned to the effect.

However, the Muslim world is relatively less informed, has not been exposed to all these Western way and culture of looking at things, and hence they can react in the way that the West may not understand at all.:jam:
 

Darkdale

World Leader Pretend
linwood said:
This cartoon is entirely relevant as it points out the hypocrisy within the Muslim world.


So what? My point is, who cares? Really? I mean, what does it matter what people do, or draw, or write. It matters what people do, right?
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
greatcalgarian said:
The West has grown accustomed to sarcasm, ridiculed, blasphemy etc, and has learned to be unable to react to all the anti thingi, i.e., too accustomed to freedom of press, and having read and heard these things almost daily, and has grown immuned to the effect.

However, the Muslim world is relatively less informed, has not been exposed to all these Western way and culture of looking at things, and hence they can react in the way that the West may not understand at all.:jam:
I know GC, In fact I pointed this exact thing out in one of these threads.

The question is what do we do about it?

Does the west revert to the 13th century or does the mid-east strive to come to the cultural level of the west?

If the latter is more appealing then how do we go about it?
They won`t take this critique from the west aas has been shown over and over again.
Change must always come from within.

Where is the Muslim Thomas Paine?
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Darkdale said:
So what? My point is, who cares? Really? I mean, what does it matter what people do, or draw, or write. It matters what people do, right?
We need to care, and this is because after some one (not you of course), such as for example those ignorant uncivilized backward Muslim, read those writing and drawing, they may then be encouraged, or reacted in such a way by those writing and drawing and end up in violence and causing misery to other people and to themselves.:eek:
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
greatcalgarian said:
We need to care, and this is because after some one (not you of course), such as for example those ignorant uncivilized backward Muslim, read those writing and drawing, they may then be encouraged, or reacted in such a way by those writing and drawing and end up in violence and causing misery to other people and to themselves.:eek:
I disagree.

We cannot censor ourselves due to the fear that irrational people will act irrationally.

We would have to rid ourselves of almost the entire library of human literary and artistic achievement under such a standard.

The problem here is not with the cartoons.
The problem here is the way the cartoons are being used as a weapon and the ignorance of those they are being used against.

If those using these cartoons didn`t get the reaction they were getting their idiocy would be seen by the entire world.
Instead they are being validated with every torch and every threat and every death.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Darkdale said:
So what? My point is, who cares? Really? I mean, what does it matter what people do, or draw, or write. It matters what people do, right?
Yes, you are right.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Judgement Day said:
Quran is our main source, and Hadiths completes the Quran. Everything in Hadiths does not conflict of anything said in the Quran. Quran contains words from God, while Hadiths contains what has been done by Prophet Muhammad which is based on the Quran.
It has been quite awhile since I`ve read any Hadiths but if memory serves I would have to disagree with this.

Many of the Hadiths do not espouse a worldview of peace and love.
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Juan Cole (Professor of History, University of Michigan) page is worth studying:

After the cartoons were published on Sept. 30, right-wing Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen reacted to the angry response by refusing to meet with ambassadors from Muslim countries and sternly lecturing Muslims on their need to put up with the caricatures. He finally sounded a more conciliatory note this week, complaining of a global crisis. He was clearly worried, like another Dane, Prince Hamlet, about what would happen "if the rest of my fortunes turn Turk with me."

Muslim touchiness about Western insults to the prophet Mohammed must be understood in historical context. Most Muslim societies have spent the past two centuries either under European rule or heavy European influence, and most colonial masters and their helpmeets among the missionaries were not shy about letting local people know exactly how barbaric they thought the Muslim faith was. The colonized still smart from the notorious signs outside European clubs in the colonial era, such as the one in Calcutta that said, "Dogs and Indians not allowed."

Indeed, the same themes of Aryan superiority and Semitic backwardness in the European "scientific racism" of the 19th and early 20th centuries that led to the Holocaust against the Jews also often colored the language of colonial administrators in places like Algeria about their subjects. A caricature of a Semitic prophet like Mohammed with a bomb in his turban replicates these racist themes of a century and a half ago, wherein Semites were depicted as violent and irrational and therefore as needing a firm white colonial master for their own good.

(It is worth noting that in 2004 the Danish editor who commissioned the drawings, Flemming Rose, conducted an uncritical interview with the American neoconservative and Islamophobe Daniel Pipes. Pipes, an extreme right-wing supporter of the Israeli colonization of the Palestinian West Bank, has warned of the dangers of Muslim immigration into Denmark, claiming that "many of them show little desire to fit into their adopted country" and that male Muslim immigrants made up a majority of the country's rapists.) '
http://www.juancole.com/
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Another good write up by Professor Juan Cole:
Several readers have asked what I think about the protests among Muslims against the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad published by a Danish newspaper.

Of course people are upset when their sacred figures are attacked! But the hurt is magnified many times when the party doing the injuring is first-world, and the injured have a long history of being ruled, oppressed and marginalized. Moreover, most Muslims live in societies with strong traditions of state censorship, so they often assume that if something appears in the press, the government allowed it to do so and is therefore culpable.

Westerners cannot feel the pain of Muslims in this instance. First, Westerners mostly live in secular societies where religious sentiments have themselves been marginalized. Second, the Muslims honor Moses and Jesus, so there is no symmetry between Christian attacks on Muhammad and Muslim critiques of the West. No Muslim cartoonist would ever lampoon the Jewish and Christian holy figures in sacred history, since Muslims believe in them, too, even if they see them all as human prophets. Third, Westerners have the security of being the first world, with their culture coded as "universal," and widely respected and imitated. Cultures like that of the Muslims in the global South receive far less respect. Finally, societies in the global South are less policed and have less security than in Western Europe or North America, allowing greater space to violent vigilateism, which would just be stopped if it were tried in the industrialized democracies. (Even wearing a t-shirt with the wrong message can get you arrested over here.)

What Muslims are saying is that depicting Muhammad with a bomb in his turban is insupportable. It is often assumed that in the West we believe in free speech, so there is nothing that is insupportable.

But that simply is not true. Muslims mind caricatures of Muhammad because they view him as the exemplar of all that is good in human beings. Most Western taboos are instead negative ones, not disallowal of attacks on symbols of goodness but the questioning of symbols of evil.

Thus, it is insupportable to say that the Nazi ideology was right and to praise Hitler. In Germany if one took that sort of thing too far one would be breaking the law. Even in France, Bernard Lewis was fined for playing down the Armenian holocaust. It is insupportable to say that slavery was right, and if you proclaimed that in the wrong urban neighborhoods, you could count on a violent response.

So once you admit that there are things that can be said that are insupportable, then the Muslim feelings about the caricatures become one reaction in an entire set of such reactions.

But you don't have to look far for other issues that would exercise Westerners just as much as attacks on Muhammad do Muslims. In secular societies, a keen concern with race often underlies ideas of social hierarchy. Thus, any act that might bring into question the superiority of so-called white people in their own territory can provoke demonstrations and even violence such as lynchings. consider the recent Australian race riots, which were in part about keeping the world ordered with whites on top.

Had the Danish newspaper published antisemitic cartoons that showed, e.g., Moses as an exploitative money lender and brought into question the Holocaust, there would also have been a firestorm of protest. For the secular world, the injuries and unspoken hierarchies of race are what cannot be attacked.

Muslims are not, as you will be told, the only community that is touchy about attacks on its holy figures or even just ordinary heros. Thousands of Muslims were killed in the early 1990s by enraged Hindus in India over the Ayodhya Mosque, which Hindus insisted was built on the site of a shrine to a Hindu holy figure. No one accuses Hindus in general of being unusually narrowminded and aggressive as a result. Or, the Likudniks in Israel protested the withdrawal from Gaza, and there were dark mutterings about what happened to Rabin recurring in the case of Sharon. The "sacred" principle at stake there is just not one most people in the outsider world would agree with the Likudniks about.

Human beings are all alike. Where they are distinctive, it comes out of a special set of historical circumstances. The Muslims are protesting this incident vigorously, and consider the caricatures insupportable. We would protest other things, and consider them insupportable.



posted by Juan @ 2/05/2006 06:04:00 AM 29 comments
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
linwood said:
Because it doesn`t exist.
Why you are so sure about it?

Any clue?
linwood said:
now again I`ll ask why is suicide wrong in Islam?

This may be the problem.
Do you think it's ok if your son suicide? It's obvious Mannnnnnnn

It's a sin because God forbid to kill our scared souls and you saw already the verse.

linwood said:
It has been quite awhile since I`ve read any Hadiths but if memory serves I would have to disagree with this.

Many of the Hadiths do not espouse a worldview of peace and love.
You may misunderstand it or you have been reading false hadiths. :)
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
linwood said:
This cartoon is entirely relevant.

I have seen for the past 10 years the most horrendous anti jewish anti-american anti-western cartoons roll out of the Muslim world on a daily basis.

Cartoons to make what was published in Europe recently look like childrens stories.

This cartoon is entirely relevant as it points out the hypocrisy within the Muslim world.
hypocrasy :eek:

anti jewish anti-american anti-western cartoons roll out of the Muslim world on a daily basis.
So what? Was it anti-christianity, anti-juadism , etc? NO

Why?

Because we respect all religions dogmas and all religions symbols.

You still don't understand.

We Muslims make cartoons about each other, about our countries, about some of our leaders and we have no problem with it.

I myself have no problem if you poined out Muslims in your cartoons to be terrorists because this how you think of Muslims from your point veiw and it would be ok with me because we are human beings and every dogmas in the world have been in this situation where some groups became terrorists and extreme making the whole religion in danger because people only look after mistakes and they don't care about the positive things. Nonetheless, to show prophet Mohammed as a terrorist and in other situation too makes us so far in deep pain about it because we save our prophet with our lives and he is better than our wives and children and the entire world.

You don't have to understand how we see prophet Mohammed and you don't have to understand how we live but at least once you know how we feel about it and how dangerous it's to go in that spot then you have to respect it at least.

We don't think the same way and we don't live in the same place and we may not share the same values but once i realize what is the things that offend you, i won't try to go through it and i wish that you will do the same with me.

I remember onece here in the forum, i started a thread because i didn't understand how people in the west feel about the holocaust and i knew only so poor information about it then i was googling about it and i found many websites about it. I understood what happened at that time and many other things but i had some questions in mind about it. Suddnly, the entire forum turned against me and i really freaked out because i didn't know how senstive it's there in the west. Some were saying all muslims hate the jewish bla bla, others were saying leave us alone, some others were insulting me.

I totally were shocked but i understood after that how they do feel about it and i respected it and i never asked about it again.

Then, i asked some friends of mine in my country about the holocaust so they said .. Ha?? :confused: What's that !!!! They know that some jewish were burned somewhere but they don't recall when was that, where and why.

Do you know what i did?

I assumed that i'm a Jew or a european guy (to understand how they feel about it) and i respected how do they feel about it after that.

The same with you, when you wanna know why we feel this way. Try to think how a real faithfull muslim will feel about it then definitely you will understand. Nevertheless, if you are thinking of it like (hey we are in free country, get over it bla bla they have to accept it) then here you will just neglect the various knowledge and the huge differncess between how you think and how we do think and the huge differncess in culture and thoughts.

I hope that you got what i mean now.
 

Judgement Day

Active Member
linwood said:
Trust me, I see through the deception.
I`m merely attempting to make it easier for others to as well.

The biggest deception here is the statement "Not by the actions of some irresponsible minorities" as if we were not talking about a huge portion of Muslim thought.
First you might want to understand what Muslim means. Muslim means someone who embraces Islam. It doesnt mean that they are practicing Islam teaching. While Mukmin is someone who embraces Islam and practices Islam teaching. In other words, not all Muslims are Mukmins, but all Mukmins are Muslims. An action by someone who embraces Islam doesnt mean that they have to represent the thought of other billions of Muslims or the religion itself.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
The Truth said:
...it because we save our prophet with our lives and he is better than our wives and children and the entire world...
Hi The_Truth,

I honestly do not mean to rub salt in your sensitivities, but to my thinking, that statement I have highlighted IS the entire problem. Work with me for a second, before you judge what I am saying. If YOU replace, the word prophet, in the above statement, with ANY other person, you would quickly agree that anyone saying such a thing was probably deluded, if not insane.

For example, "It is because we save our George W. Bush with our lives and he is better than our wives and children and the entire world..." You would say, that is INSANE.

I am NOT comparing George W. Bush to the Prophet [pbuh], as I am simply making a point. Your deep love, blinds you. It is not possible for you to even consider that you might be wrong. THAT kind of thinking is very dangerous.

I hope that YOU get what i mean.
 
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