Cartoons Under Fire

[Quiddity]

This is taking a turn for the worst:

Cartoon Protesters Direct Anger at U.S.
Bush Rebukes Muslim Violence, Chides Press

 

[Lost Soul]

This is taking a turn for the worst:

Cartoon Protesters Direct Anger at U.S.
Bush Rebukes Muslim Violence, Chides Press

But of course, the U.S. had to be draged into this mess. Now Europe will back itself out of it and leave us with it.:banghead3

 

[greatcalgarian]

"Islam says it's all right to demonstrate but not to resort to violence. This must stop," senior cleric Mohammed Usman told The Associated Press. "We condemn the cartoons but this does not justify violence. These rioters are defaming the name of Islam."

Another Muslim leader spoke out against violence.

 

[greatcalgarian]

JAKARTA, Indonesia (CNN) -- About 200 Muslims demonstrated Friday outside the Danish Embassy to protest caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed originally published in a Danish newspaper, Danish Ambassador Neils Erik Andersen told CNN.

About a dozen of the demonstrators, members of Defenders of Islam, or FPI, broke through security and, once on the embassy grounds, demanded to meet with Andersen, who agreed to do so.

During the meeting, Andersen reiterated an apology made earlier by Jyllands-Posten, the Danish newspaper, whose publication last September of the caricature offended some Muslims. Afterward, he described the meeting as productive.

See, Muslim can be peacefull :162:

 

[greatcalgarian]

But of course, the U.S. had to be draged into this mess. Now Europe will back itself out of it and leave us with it.:banghead3

The conspiracy theorist says that that is the ulterior motive of Danish cartoon editor publishing those cartoon, and rekindled them three months later, when the initial effort did not end up with the desired effect of rousing the Muslim anti-US feeling.

 

[YmirGF]

Check out what Muslims are saying on Islam.com

The thread is very interesting reading. Several of the Muslim "heavy weights" on Islam.com say their piece. Very interesting, but it IS rather long.

http://www.islam.com/all-replies.asp?id=694821&ct=1&mn=694821

The thread is started by Defending_Islam who is considered to be a moderate Muslim.
Check it out. Quite a range of emotions and thoughts here.

 

[greatcalgarian]

I don`t see the point.
The 10 deaths are the result of Muslims (for the most part) defending the institutions the rioting Muslims are attacking.

The end result is moderate Muslim or Muslim in political power killing 'fanatic' Muslim the ignorant citizen??

Who is losing their life over the whole issue of cartoon from Danmark?

Most of these violence occurred in Muslim countries, very few in the West. And even those in the West, there is little violence. What do you make out of this?

The whole cartoon issue may have a hidden agenda of stirring up Muslim anti-West feeling, using the weapon of 'freedom of press'

Very sad, very sad.

 

[greatcalgarian]

Check out what Muslims are saying on Islam.com

The thread is very interesting reading. Several of the Muslim "heavy weights" on Islam.com say their piece. Very interesting, but it IS rather long.

http://www.islam.com/all-replies.asp?id=694821&ct=1&mn=694821

The thread is started by Defending_Islam who is considered to be a moderate Muslim.
Check it out. Quite a range of emotions and thoughts here.

Good post, many useful points in the dicussion thread....:clap

 

[linwood]

Who is losing their life over the whole issue of cartoon from Danmark?

If you are implying something here please clarify.
I don`t think these cartoons were published with the thought that ignorant Muslims would kill themselves over it.

Most of these violence occurred in Muslim countries, very few in the West. And even those in the West, there is little violence. What do you make out of this?

I think the educational systems in Muslims coutnries are horrendous.
I think the generational religious dogma passed down is horrendous.
I think Muslims should work hard to lift themselves out of the 13th century.

The whole cartoon issue may have a hidden agenda of stirring up Muslim anti-West feeling, using the weapon of 'freedom of press'

Very sad, very sad.

I don`t disagre but here and elsewhere GC you seem to have a desire to pin this violence on all but those who are perpetrating it.

The possibility that these Muslims were antagonised into this tells more about the Muslims than it does about the antagonizers.

 

[Deut 13:1]

That is completely untrue.

You're right, 70 virgins, my fault.

 

[linwood]

But of course, the U.S. had to be draged into this mess. Now Europe will back itself out of it and leave us with it.:banghead3

They are cunning indeed!

:biglaugh:

 

[Buttercup]

They are cunning indeed!

:biglaugh:

I swear...just yesterday I said to my husband...I bet somehow, someway this will the the USA's fault...I think I'm psychic.

I should buy a powerball ticket

 

[mr.guy]

I swear...just yesterday I said to my husband...I bet somehow, someway this will the the USA's fault...I think I'm psychic.

I think you're just overly-exposed to knee-jerk american martydom.

 

[jamaesi]

You're right, 70 virgins, my fault.

And that is completely untrue also.

 

[mr.guy]

I thought it was 79? (i think) The Truth said the number "79" was often used to describe huge (but not necessarily definite) quantities...

 

[greatcalgarian]

If you are implying something here please clarify.
I don`t think these cartoons were published with the thought that ignorant Muslims would kill themselves over it.


I think the educational systems in Muslims coutnries are horrendous.
I think the generational religious dogma passed down is horrendous.
I think Muslims should work hard to lift themselves out of the 13th century.


I don`t disagre but here and elsewhere GC you seem to have a desire to pin this violence on all but those who are perpetrating it (GC: it is up to individual to arrive at his/her own conclusion regarding who is the perpetrator).

The possibility that these Muslims were antagonised into this tells more about the Muslims than it does about the antagonizers.

You saw through my objective of posting, very smart of you. Frubals to you, though I have to spread the Karma to some other posters first.

Actually I just like to point out there are various possible way and view to look at this event, and is not simply a straight forward Muslim violent reaction towards the publishing of some innocent looking cartoons in the eye of western culture.

Everyone can draw their own conclusion as to where and who is the perpetrator, who has the ulterior motive, and who is making use of the situation to make full advantage of it.

Indonesia and Malaysia have a proverb: Gajah-gajah bergadoh, Pelanduk mati di tengah-tengah, meaning when the ruling classes clash, those who suffer are the ordinary citizen.

Hence those who are killed in the violent demonstration, be it the ignorant participant, or the innocent employee of the embassy, they are just the poor sacrifice, where the two major evil forces are using them to fight out the war or battle.

 

[greatcalgarian]

And that is completely untrue also.

Forget about correcting the virgin concept, which has been inplanted into some Christians by the very successful Western propaganda and some evangelical persons that this idea of Muslim going to heaven having many virgins simply will not leave their mind in peace, until they repeated it over and over again.

Perhaps, from the psychology point of view which may deduce from this behavior that, this may be those Christians secret desire.:highfive:

 

[Smoke]

Forget about correcting the virgin concept, which has been inplanted into some Christians by the very successful Western propaganda and some evangelical persons that this idea of Muslim going to heaven having many virgins simply will not leave their mind in peace, until they repeated it over and over again.

Perhaps, from the psychology point of view which may deduce from this behavior that, this may be those Christians secret desire.:highfive:

It's not just Western propaganda; there are many Muslims who do believe they'll get 70 virgins in Paradise. I'm not saying they're the best and the brightest Muslims, but they're out there -- just as there are Christians who fervently believe in things like the Rapture. For instance, a Hamas activist reported that he told prospective suicide bombers, "If you become a martyr, God will give you 70 virgins, 70 wives and everlasting happiness."

See this article in the Guardian, which also includes some surprising comments by Al-Suyuti.

However, I don't doubt that this belief is so widely known in the West because Christians are titillated by it.

 

[greatcalgarian]

It's not just Western propaganda; there are many Muslims who do believe they'll get 70 virgins in Paradise. I'm not saying they're the best and the brightest Muslims, but they're out there -- just as there are Christians who fervently believe in things like the Rapture. For instance, a Hamas activist reported that he told prospective suicide bombers, "If you become a martyr, God will give you 70 virgins, 70 wives and everlasting happiness."

See this article in the Guardian, which also includes some surprising comments by Al-Suyuti.

However, I don't doubt that this belief is so widely known in the West because Christians are titillated by it.

Good Guardian link. Like to give you frubals, but have to wait.

What of the rewards in paradise? The Islamic paradise is described in great sensual detail in the Koran and the Traditions; for instance, Koran sura 56 verses 12 -40 ; sura 55 verses 54-56 ; sura 76 verses 12-22. I shall quote the celebrated Penguin translation by NJ Dawood of sura 56 verses 12- 39: "They shall recline on jewelled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine (that will neither pain their heads nor take away their reason); with fruits of their own choice and flesh of fowls that they relish. And theirs shall be the dark-eyed houris, chaste as hidden pearls: a guerdon for their deeds... We created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand..." One should note that most translations, even those by Muslims themselves such as A Yusuf Ali, and the British Muslim Marmaduke Pickthall, translate the Arabic (plural) word Abkarun as virgins, as do well-known lexicons such the one by John Penrice. I emphasise this fact since many pudic and embarrassed Muslims claim there has been a mistranslation, that "virgins" should be replaced by "angels". In sura 55 verses 72-74, Dawood translates the Arabic word " hur " as "virgins", and the context makes clear that virgin is the appropriate translation: "Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents (which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?) whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched before." The word hur occurs four times in the Koran and is usually translated as a "maiden with dark eyes".

May be it is the problem of translation and literal interpretation. Perhaps the Koran also should be figuratively interpreted.

 

[linwood]

Good Guardian link. Like to give you frubals, but have to wait.

May be it is the problem of translation and literal interpretation. Perhaps the Koran also should be figuratively interpreted.

I dunno but it is in the Koran/Hadiths.

Like any other religious text it can be interpreted in many ways and apparently many Muslims interpret it to mean they will be getting some virgins for blowing themselves up.