Caste System and Status of Women in Hinduism

[SoundBrain]

Namaste,

As a scholar I disagree with your thoughts about Aryans vs. Dravidians. If you do more reading you will find the academic community tends to be split on this issue. For every pro AIT person you find you will also find an anti AIT person. Ultimately it is up to the individual to decide what arguement they believe.

In terms of equality I absolutely agree. Men and women of all castes should be equal. The caste system as it has been practiced is in many regards morally wrong. I have no problem with varna that is based on personal inclination and ability, I do however have a huge problem with birth based caste and discrimination against women. We have the ability to help change this. You see it starting slowly in India with, for example, programs teaching women to be temple pujaris and temples abolishing caste requirements. These steps, although small, are in the right direction.

The problem too is that the gov. made the caste system illegal but then they developed scheduled castes for special governemnt treatment thus perpectuating the problem.

As for God's involvement, this is Kali Yuga, once the balance is shifted completely toward evil and dharma is on the verge of completely dying, he will return again and set it right. It's the natural order of things. If you're atheist I don't expect you to accept this answer but I'm just providing my pov.

Thanks for your opinion.

About the reservation system, I don't want that to perpetuate casteism, but there is no other go. How can you expect a particular group of people, who have never been allowed or only partially allowed to have education for centuries, to cope up with a group of people, who did nothing but educating themselves, within 60 years of freedom?

If we remove reservation, it will only worsen the conditions of the suppressed people.

And about casteism, I really want to believe that governments are doing something really meaningful. I have a lot of Theistic and Atheistic friends from all parts of India. All they say is that "the self-claimed higher class people, both the priests and past royals, will never allow the casteism to disappear any sooner."

It will be amazing if there is really some God out there. No need for me to take up the imaginary burden. But I don't make fun of anyone's beliefs even if they are binary opposite to mine and I expect the same.

I have a religious question: If God can be assumed as a father (its how I used to imagine him when I was a kid), why would he even allow the complete destruction of entire civilizations whatever their wrong-doings maybe. A father will NOT kill his child for any sane reason.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Many scholars no longer believes that there is a clear line between the Dravidian and Aryan Religions. Many Dravidian scholars now believe that the Vedic yupastambha ( sacrificial post) talked about in the Vedas is a Shiva Linga. The excavations Harappa and Mohenjo-daro have revealed Fire altars. It is just not the work of one professor that has now called into question the whole history of the area.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I have a religious question: If God can be assumed as a father (its how I used to imagine him when I was a kid), why would he even allow the complete destruction of entire civilizations whatever their wrong-doings maybe. A father will NOT kill his child for any sane reason.

You are welcome to reject Hinduism. But you have no Idea how many sects of Hinduism define God. I really believe that you do not understand the concept of Brahman in Hinduism. This whole argument makes no sense from point of Advaita view. You could use this argument against some one of the Abrahamic faiths but it can't apply to a Buddhist or a follower of Advaita Vedanta.

Please read this blog on Advaita Vedanta

http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNK33XJI5G66IAW7

 

[Andal]

You are welcome to reject Hinduism. But you have no Idea how many sects of Hinduism define God. I really believe that you do not understand the concept of Brahman in Hinduism. This whole argument makes no sense from point of Advaita view. You could use this argument against some one of the Abrahamic faiths but it can't apply to a Buddhist or a follower of Advaita Vedanta.

Please read this blog on Advaita Vedanta

Rama Rao's Amazon Blog: Vedanta, Quantum Physics and Erwin Schrödinger Permalink

Frubals to you, Prabhu, for your great posts tonight

I agree that Advaita and Buddhist Dharmas would have no problem addressing this. Also if one is coming from a theistic Hindu perspective, the answers lay in the Bhagavad Gita (I'm sure other texts too, I'm just not as well versed in Shiva and Shakti traditions)

From the Vaishnava perspective, those who believe they can be killed and those who believe they can kill are both mistaken. The soul is eternal and only changes bodies. When we wanted a material position we agreed to play by the rule of Karma. Karma is what gives some people good fortune and others bad. That doesn't mean if we see suffering we shouldn't help because that would cause even more karma. Karma is an opportunity to set the world and ourselves right. Some choose to work with karma to better the world while others perfer to remain pulled by it's harsh winds.

Moreso, it isn't God's job to clean up our messes, we are the ones who chose to come here in the first place. He comes to keep dharma going so that generation after generation has an opportunity to achieve moksha. Beyond that, we have responsibility. When genocide happens, when discrimination occurs, when there is poverty and disease; it is not God's fault but our own because we chose not to respond to the opportunity give to us.
What's more, if God came every time there was an atrocity, any time someone wanted something, then we would never want to leave the material world and return to our true nature.

 

[SoundBrain]

You are welcome to reject Hinduism. But you have no Idea how many sects of Hinduism define God. I really believe that you do not understand the concept of Brahman in Hinduism. This whole argument makes no sense from point of Advaita view. You could use this argument against some one of the Abrahamic faiths but it can't apply to a Buddhist or a follower of Advaita Vedanta.

Please read this blog on Advaita Vedanta

Rama Rao's Amazon Blog: Vedanta, Quantum Physics and Erwin Schrödinger Permalink

Frubals to you, Prabhu, for your great posts tonight

Alright.. I shouldn't have thought that my final sentimental question would completely distract the discussion (even get frubals for you).

Dvaita and Advaita doesn't even matter. Leave the philosophical mind frame and come out and look at the practical world.

Regarding Dravidians and Aryans,
I don't know where you find those 'scholars'.

Wikipedia:
Some linguists believe that Dravidian-speaking people were spread throughout the Indian subcontinent before a series of Indo-Aryan migrations. In this view, the early Indus Valley civilization (Harappa and Mohenjo Daro) is often identified as having been Dravidian. [3]. Cultural and linguistic similarities have been cited by researchers such as Finnish Indologist Asko Parpola as being strong evidence for a proto-Dravidian origin of the ancient Indus Valley civilization.

Tantravārttika by Kumārila Bhaṭṭa seemed to use the word 'Dravida' first.

Theravada Buddhism (Dravidian Buddhism) is considered to be the oldest form of Buddhism.

Mysteries like Proto-Dravidian languages, Elamo-Dravidian language system and Lemuria continent are been worked on by a lot of researchers.

I know that its hard to believe for you that the aborigines of India have such a great civilization of their own. But truth always prevails!

 

[Andal]

Alright.. I shouldn't have thought that my final sentimental question would completely distract the discussion (even get frubals for you).

Dvaita and Advaita doesn't even matter. Leave the philosophical mind frame and come out and look at the practical world.

Regarding Dravidians and Aryans,
I don't know where you find those 'scholars'.

Wikipedia:
Some linguists believe that Dravidian-speaking people were spread throughout the Indian subcontinent before a series of Indo-Aryan migrations. In this view, the early Indus Valley civilization (Harappa and Mohenjo Daro) is often identified as having been Dravidian. [3]. Cultural and linguistic similarities have been cited by researchers such as Finnish Indologist Asko Parpola as being strong evidence for a proto-Dravidian origin of the ancient Indus Valley civilization.

Tantravārttika by Kumārila Bhaṭṭa seemed to use the word 'Dravida' first.

Theravada Buddhism (Dravidian Buddhism) is considered to be the oldest form of Buddhism.

Mysteries like Proto-Dravidian languages, Elamo-Dravidian language system and Lemuria continent are been worked on by a lot of researchers.

I know that its hard to believe for you that the aborigines of India have such a great civilization of their own. But truth always prevails!

There are way more schools of thought than Advaita and Dvaita, in fact I don't belong to either of those two. Having a background in this type of knowledge is a part of being in the "practical world" because it is this different beliefs that shape relationships, rituals, and day to day behavior for many Hindus.

If find it interesting that you use "" when refering to our scholars but then you go and post a wikipedia article. Wikipedia is not a valid source. If you want to prove your pov don't use wikipedia, it only discredits you. It is not an academic source because it is open source and there is no process of peer review.

Also using a Tantra to prove your idea is faulty because tantras fall into the category of Agamas which were composed much later than the supposed invassion. The point of tantras was not to point out anthropological information but to teach philosophy and ritual practice. Why don't we find such a term in the Vedas or upanishads, which both have a historical element to them?

Theravada Buddhism was never refered to as dravidian Buddhism. It was refered to as Theravada or the Path the Elders. In fact it was 1 in 18 schools of Buddhadharma that existed in India from about 300 BCE to when if faded from the Indian religious scene.

The assertion of Dravidian Religion (assuming then that there is an Aryan Religion) makes zero sense as the archeological evidence we now have shows that religion in India did not go through any great upheaval.

There are no aboriginies vs. invaders in India. At it's hard for me to accept this because I know the various sides to this argument and find your Aryan vs. Dravidian theory to be flawed.

 

[Andal]

Here's an interesting article with citations

Demise of the Aryan Invasion Theory

You may also want to check out the work of Dr. Dr. Toomas Kivisild. He's a geneticist from Cambridge Univ. who did analysis of genetic markers in South India. Based on his findings, he believes that people went west from India to populate Eurasia. Not the other way around.

Here's an interesting article from Dr. N.S. Rajaram
Aryan Invasion — History or Politics? By Dr. N.S. Rajaram

A book review of yet another scholar speaking out against this theory.
Aryan invasion theory, book reviews, bibliography, discussion - Bharat Rakshak Forum

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

.

I know that its hard to believe for you that the aborigines of India have such a great civilization of their own. But truth always prevails!

Why would you think that I have no respect for aborigines.( Do you think I am a Bigot because I am a Hindu ? ) I have great respect for many traditional people. In many ways I believe that non impacted indigenous people have a better understanding of the world, than we modern folks are able to even comprehend. They understand how to live in harmony with our planet and all of it's diverse inhabitants. In many ways I see the new one world post modern culture that is now spreading all over the face of our earth, as a creeping melanoma that eats away at our sense of being human and our ability to live in harmony with nature and our fellow beings.

I think that if you look at many native American Groups you will find that in many they were much more civilized then the europeans who conquered them. For the most part its the Barbarian that invades the civilized society. Not the other way around.

 

[SoundBrain]

There are way more schools of thought than Advaita and Dvaita, in fact I don't belong to either of those two. Having a background in this type of knowledge is a part of being in the "practical world" because it is this different beliefs that shape relationships, rituals, and day to day behavior for many Hindus.

If find it interesting that you use "" when refering to our scholars but then you go and post a wikipedia article. Wikipedia is not a valid source. If you want to prove your pov don't use wikipedia, it only discredits you. It is not an academic source because it is open source and there is no process of peer review.

Also using a Tantra to prove your idea is faulty because tantras fall into the category of Agamas which were composed much later than the supposed invassion. The point of tantras was not to point out anthropological information but to teach philosophy and ritual practice. Why don't we find such a term in the Vedas or upanishads, which both have a historical element to them?

Theravada Buddhism was never refered to as dravidian Buddhism. It was refered to as Theravada or the Path the Elders. In fact it was 1 in 18 schools of Buddhadharma that existed in India from about 300 BCE to when if faded from the Indian religious scene.

The assertion of Dravidian Religion (assuming then that there is an Aryan Religion) makes zero sense as the archeological evidence we now have shows that religion in India did not go through any great upheaval.

There are no aboriginies vs. invaders in India. At it's hard for me to accept this because I know the various sides to this argument and find your Aryan vs. Dravidian theory to be flawed.

Well, even though wikipedia is an open-source, we cannot add invalid references.

Also I think, this discussion goes nowhere or somewhere completely different than I expected, with two staunch believers in their ways. Ancient History can only be assumed based on bits and pieces of information. So everything we discussed are still under serious research. Lets see what comes out of it. And I believe in learning anything in a debate I participate, so even though I have had debates in your style I still learnt something. I will post references supporting my claims.

 

[Andal]

Well, even though wikipedia is an open-source, we cannot add invalid references.

Also I think, this discussion goes nowhere or somewhere completely different than I expected, with two staunch believers in their ways. Ancient History can only be assumed based on bits and pieces of information. So everything we discussed are still under serious research. Lets see what comes out of it. And I believe in learning anything in a debate I participate, so even though I have had debates in your style I still learnt something. I will post references supporting my claims.

You're right you can't post false sources on wiki however there is no peer review therefore no way to ensure the way the sources are interpreted is correct or even the sources themselves valid.

I agree we will have to wait and see but I don't think we will ever get to definitive point in our lives that will change my mind or yours. We may just have to agree to disagree on this matter.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Here's an interesting article with citations

Demise of the Aryan Invasion Theory

You may also want to check out the work of Dr. Dr. Toomas Kivisild. He's a geneticist from Cambridge Univ. who did analysis of genetic markers in South India. Based on his findings, he believes that people went west from India to populate Eurasia. Not the other way around.

Here's an interesting article from Dr. N.S. Rajaram
Aryan Invasion — History or Politics? By Dr. N.S. Rajaram

A book review of yet another scholar speaking out against this theory.
Aryan invasion theory, book reviews, bibliography, discussion - Bharat Rakshak Forum

You have been holding out on us. Great sites thank you. I am sure I will use these in the future.

 

[rcscwc]

Thanks for your opinion.

About the reservation system, I don't want that to perpetuate casteism, but there is no other go. How can you expect a particular group of people, who have never been allowed or only partially allowed to have education for centuries, to cope up with a group of people, who did nothing but educating themselves, within 60 years of freedom?

If we remove reservation, it will only worsen the conditions of the suppressed people.

And about casteism, I really want to believe that governments are doing something really meaningful. I have a lot of Theistic and Atheistic friends from all parts of India. All they say is that "the self-claimed higher class people, both the priests and past royals, will never allow the casteism to disappear any sooner."

It will be amazing if there is really some God out there. No need for me to take up the imaginary burden. But I don't make fun of anyone's beliefs even if they are binary opposite to mine and I expect the same.

I have a religious question: If God can be assumed as a father (its how I used to imagine him when I was a kid), why would he even allow the complete destruction of entire civilizations whatever their wrong-doings maybe. A father will NOT kill his child for any sane reason.

You cannot perpetuate caste based reservation ad infinitum and hope for abolition of castes. Best way is to forget about all such labels.

there is already a talk about how some castes are under represented in national sports teams!! I won't be surprised if games medals are soon reserved on caste basis.

 

[Metempsychosis]

Coming to the point:
I believe in ABSOLUTE EQUALITY among human beings. This was one of the primary reasons why I left Hinduism.

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

 

[santdasji]

sound brain, u should have studied the swaminarayan sampradai, iskon etc. u wud have learnt that the sanatan dharm is not about caste but the soul and supersoul.

 

[bp789]

Can someone help answer my questions?

If caste system was based on conduct first, and then it became based on birth, how does the story of Eklavya fit into this? Ekalavya wanted to became an archer, but he couldn't become one because he came from the Nishadha tribe, which was considered low caste.

Also, in India, why are most low caste people darker skinned than high caste? Most dalits have dark skin and most high castes have light skin. While there are some high castes with dark skin, they are not as dark as the low castes (except maybe in South India), and there are few low castes with light skin.

Thank you.

 

[Madhuri]

Can someone help answer my questions?

If caste system was based on conduct first, and then it became based on birth, how does the story of Eklavya fit into this? Ekalavya wanted to became an archer, but he couldn't become one because he came from the Nishadha tribe, which was considered low caste.

Also, in India, why are most low caste people darker skinned than high caste? Most dalits have dark skin and most high castes have light skin. While there are some high castes with dark skin, they are not as dark as the low castes (except maybe in South India), and there are few low castes with light skin.

Thank you.

I can't answer your first question because I am unfamiliar with the story. I can say that in India having light skin is a symbol of high class and dark skin a symbol of low class.
It's all cultural. Silly, ignorant culture.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Madhuri,

It's all cultural. Silly, ignorant culture.

Which culture is not ignorant?

Love & rgds

 

[nameless]

Can someone help answer my questions?

Also, in India, why are most low caste people darker skinned than high caste? Most dalits have dark skin and most high castes have light skin. While there are some high castes with dark skin, they are not as dark as the low castes (except maybe in South India), and there are few low castes with light skin.

Thank you.

The situation in the past was so severe, the low cast people were serious worker, they suffered a lot, was not allowed to reach a better position, i assume that is reason why their skin went so dark. But it is getting better now, so it is seen the skin of dalits becoming more lighter, their way of life changed.

 

[Madhuri]

Friend Madhuri,



Which culture is not ignorant?

Love & rgds

True.

 

[syberpriend]

But why the status of women is degraded in Hinduism still? y treating women very low always?