Catholicism & Christianity

[krsnaraja]

I don`t like to compete with this thread but there should be a distinction when one says Christians. It could refer to me or my family who are devout Catholics. Catholicism is centered on Christ & around Christ are his devotees. If this title say Christianity must change or die I say Protestants should return to Catholicism or else they die.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ates/122952-christianity-must-change-die.html

This thread is instigating a war between Catholics & Protestants.

 

[Villager]

Catholicism is centered on Christ

The argument has been that Catholicism is centred on man rather than Christ.

When a Catholic goes to Mass, why does he go there? It is not for the same reason that the faithful Anglican, for instance, has in mind on his way to communion. The Anglican goes to communion because he is justified; the Catholic to Mass in order to be justified. They are certainly not the same religions, then, and cannot properly be confused. If the Christ is one whose purpose is to justify sinners before God, the Anglican is the true worshipper, the Catholic not. If the Christ is one whose purpose is not to justify sinners before God, but to achieve something else, the Catholic may be the true worshipper, depending on what that purpose is. The purpose of the Catholic may be akin to that of the person on his way to a mosque, to fulfil an obligation of works. It may be akin to the person who lights candles and incense to please Krishna. Certainly, according to canon law, the Catholic needs to go to Mass, the Anglican does not need to go to communion. The Catholic goes to Mass because he has to, the Anglican goes to communion because he wants to.

 

[ngupta]

It may be akin to the person who lights candles and incense to please Krishna.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don`t like to compete with this thread but there should be a distinction when one says Christians. It could refer to me or my family who are devout Catholics. Catholicism is centered on Christ & around Christ are his devotees. If this title say Christianity must change or die I say Protestants should return to Catholicism or else they die.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ates/122952-christianity-must-change-die.html

This thread is instigating a war between Catholics & Protestants.

I think that the Catholic Church is in even more trouble than the Protestant denominations. It's very quickly marching toward irrelevance. Consider the severe shortage of priests: young men just aren't stepping forward to lead the church. Here in Toronto, several parishes have closed in recent years because the congregations have shrunk to the point that they can't be supported.

I think that if Protestant denominations were to re-join the Catholic Church, they would effectively be attaching an anchor to their necks.

I don't foresee a time in the near future when the Catholic Church disappears altogether, but I do see it getting to the point where it shrinks and withers to the point that it's irrelevant for all practical purposes.

 

[JacobEzra.]

I think that the Catholic Church is in even more trouble than the Protestant denominations. It's very quickly marching toward irrelevance. Consider the severe shortage of priests: young men just aren't stepping forward to lead the church. Here in Toronto, several parishes have closed in recent years because the congregations have shrunk to the point that they can't be supported.

I think that if Protestant denominations were to re-join the Catholic Church, they would effectively be attaching an anchor to their necks.

I don't foresee a time in the near future when the Catholic Church disappears altogether, but I do see it getting to the point where it shrinks and withers to the point that it's irrelevant for all practical purposes.

What you see in Toronto does not include the whole world buddy.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What you see in Toronto does not include the whole world buddy.

I realize that, and I realize that there are some areas where the Church is growing, but I think it's in a decline overall in many ways: raw numbers, involvement, political influence... and I think the trend is increasing.

 

[Kathryn]

I realize that, and I realize that there are some areas where the Church is growing, but I think it's in a decline overall in many ways: raw numbers, involvement, political influence... and I think the trend is increasing.

The Catholic Church is growing worldwide:

Mainline Churches Shrinking; Catholics, Mormons, AoG Growing: NCC Report | EcumenicalNews.com

It's membership passed 1 billion a few years ago and continues to grow.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Catholic Church is growing worldwide:

Mainline Churches Shrinking; Catholics, Mormons, AoG Growing: NCC Report | EcumenicalNews.com

It's membership passed 1 billion a few years ago and continues to grow.

How are those statistics calculated?

I wouldn't count people who were baptized Catholic but don't attend a Catholic church as "Catholic", but I know the Church does.

 

[Kathryn]

How are those statistics calculated?

I wouldn't count people who were baptized Catholic but don't attend a Catholic church as "Catholic", but I know the Church does.

Not sure.

But show me another Christian group with the same rate of growth in CONVERTS each year.

Assembly of God, Mormons, and Catholics are fastest growing Christian groups. And the number of people converting to Catholicism each year outpaces the number of people converting to AoG and Mormonism.

 

[krsnaraja]

How are those statistics calculated?

I wouldn't count people who were baptized Catholic but don't attend a Catholic church as "Catholic", but I know the Church does.

With 73.8 million members in 2005, it is the predominant religion, making the Philippines the third largest "Catholic" nation in the world after Brazil and Mexico, as well as one of the two predominantly Catholic countries in Asia, the other being East Timor ( Wikipedia ).

There are Korean Catholics in Asia. Their numbers are growing. One of them is Lawrence, my friend & RF member.

 

[Madhuri]

It may be akin to the person who lights candles and incense to please Krishna.

I don't think so.

 

[krsnaraja]

The argument has been that Catholicism is centred on man rather than Christ.

When a Catholic goes to Mass, why does he go there? It is not for the same reason that the faithful Anglican, for instance, has in mind on his way to communion. The Anglican goes to communion because he is justified; the Catholic to Mass in order to be justified. They are certainly not the same religions, then, and cannot properly be confused. If the Christ is one whose purpose is to justify sinners before God, the Anglican is the true worshipper, the Catholic not. If the Christ is one whose purpose is not to justify sinners before God, but to achieve something else, the Catholic may be the true worshipper, depending on what that purpose is. The purpose of the Catholic may be akin to that of the person on his way to a mosque, to fulfil an obligation of works. It may be akin to the person who lights candles and incense to please Krishna. Certainly, according to canon law, the Catholic needs to go to Mass, the Anglican does not need to go to communion. The Catholic goes to Mass because he has to, the Anglican goes to communion because he wants to.

We Catholics go to Church & hear Mass because it`s an obligation. The argument is this: How many hours do you spend working per week? The minimum requirement is 40 hours a week. Whereas the Catholic Church demands her members attend Mass every Sunday for only an hour. Is that too taxing for a Catholic to do? Receiving Holy Communion ( here we go again ) is akin to receiving Prasadam ( food offered to Krishna ).

 

[Villager]

We Catholics go to Church & hear Mass because it`s an obligation.

That's precisely the point. There is no obligation for Protestants, so asking them to join the RCC is asking them to change their religion in a very basic way, a religion that their forebears gave blood for. Nothing has changed. If Catholics want Protestants to join them, they must give up Mass and all their other sacraments. Iow, they must stop being Catholics.

The argument is this: How many hours do you spend working per week?

Christians don't spend one billisecond working to be justified. Henry VIII attended Mass eight times a day (five on hunting days) because he was afraid of dying with unforgiven sin. He had a chapel and staff to accommodate him, of course, but this remains the RC principle to this day, and more devout Catholics attend Mass daily, even now. But if Catholics go to Mass once a month, or less often, as many of them do, maybe it's because they don't really believe the RC principle. Why should they, when their 'betters' are often not even as virtuous as they are? And why should they, when their own Catechism tells them that Protestants are Christians without having to get up and trail off to Confession, Mass, Holy Days of Obligation, or anything else?

Henry also hanged a man for eating meat on a Friday. It's that sort of theology, recently re-emphasised by the Vatican, that makes the distance between Catholics and Protestants even greater.

 

[krsnaraja]

That's precisely the point. There is no obligation for Protestants, so asking them to join the RCC is asking them to change their religion in a very basic way, a religion that their forebears gave blood for. Nothing has changed. If Catholics want Protestants to join them, they must give up Mass and all their other sacraments. Iow, they must stop being Catholics.

Christians don't spend one billisecond working to be justified. Henry VIII attended Mass eight times a day (five on hunting days) because he was afraid of dying with unforgiven sin. He had a chapel and staff to accommodate him, of course, but this remains the RC principle to this day, and more devout Catholics attend Mass daily, even now. But if Catholics go to Mass once a month, or less often, as many of them do, maybe it's because they don't really believe the RC principle. Why should they, when their 'betters' are often not even as virtuous as they are? And why should they, when their own Catechism tells them that Protestants are Christians without having to get up and trail off to Confession, Mass, Holy Days of Obligation, or anything else?

Henry also hanged a man for eating meat on a Friday. It's that sort of theology, recently re-emphasised by the Vatican, that makes the distance between Catholics and Protestants even greater.

Protestants don`t hear Mass? But they go to an assembly say every Wednesday or Saturday praising Christ & not taking anything ( one solid & one liquid ) after the kirtan ( chanting & praising)? The protestants it seem do not want to remember at all the Last Supper & Christ Passion. All they want is to sing to the Lord, praise the Lord, dance to the Lord & Laugh at the Lord & forgetting totally the pre-Risen Christ?

 

[Villager]

Protestants don`t hear Mass? But they go to an assembly say every Wednesday or Saturday praising Christ & not taking anything ( one solid & one liquid ) after the kirtan ( chanting & praising)? The protestants it seem do not want to remember at all the Last Supper & Christ Passion. All they want is to sing to the Lord, praise the Lord, dance to the Lord & Laugh at the Lord & forgetting totally the pre-Risen Christ?

Protestants, real ones, do as the Bible says. Catholics do as their leader says, or do as they please.

 

[Katzpur]

How are those statistics calculated?

I wouldn't count people who were baptized Catholic but don't attend a Catholic church as "Catholic", but I know the Church does.

I don't know how else you'd count religious adherents. All Churches count the number of members on record when determining membership. There really isn't any other way of doing it. It probably all evens out. One denomination increases by 50% but only 20% of them remain practicing members. Another denomination increases by 40% but only 16% of them remain practicing members. (Obviously all of those numbers are inflated. No church's membership goes up 50% in a year, but they all probably retain their converts at roughly the same rate.)

 

[Villager]

I don't know how else you'd count religious adherents. All Churches count the number of members on record when determining membership. There really isn't any other way of doing it.

There most certainly is. Real churches count the number of people who actually attend meetings, teach, evangelise, pray, help each other in practical ways, and they know each other personally, and well. Names on a list are not worth the paper they are written on.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't know how else you'd count religious adherents. All Churches count the number of members on record when determining membership. There really isn't any other way of doing it.

Many censuses ask people to give their religious affiliation. That would be one way.

But my point is that I don't really count someone as Catholic if they only set foot in a church for their baptism, wedding and funeral, which does happen quite a bit.

Also, I think that Catholic baptismal records give an inflated picture compared to other denominations, because of infant baptism.

But just look around this forum: how many members are there who list their religion as things like "atheist" or "Buddhist" who start their intro threads with "Hi! My family's Catholic, but..."? Virtually all of them are included in the stats that Kathryn is citing. Personally, I think it's ridiculous to count these people as real members of the Catholic church.

 

[krsnaraja]

Protestants, real ones, do as the Bible says. Catholics do as their leader says, or do as they please.

That`s the difference! Catholics do as they please but wont forget going to Church & hear Mass for only one hour to take Prasadam ( Holy Communion ).

Real Protestants do what the Bible says? That`s why they come to our shores & convert our people to Protestantism then say to them, " Cut the heads of the Sr Santo Nino de Cebu statues you have in your home & bury them if you want to join us!"

 

[Villager]

That`s the difference! Catholics do as they please but wont forget going to Church & hear Mass for only one hour to take Prasadam ( Holy Communion ).

Catholics do as they please but won't forget going to the sacrifice of the Mass to have their righteousness restored after doing as they please.

Catholics will do themselves no good if they pretend to be Protestants.