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cause-and-effect: "cause" require evidence too

gnostic

The Lost One
Yes new, there's plenty still alive today who were taught the universe is eternal and unmovable. Including Einstein actually - and my grandparents.

Einstein called it the “Static Universe” model, in 1917. Einstein has also introduced the Cosmological Constant into his set of field equations from General Relativity (1915), to make his Static Universe work.

Robertson (1924) and Lemaître (1927) have both (but independently) proposed measuring the redshifts (in the EM spectrum) of the distant objects, eg galaxies outside the Local Group, as the indication that these galaxies are receding away from the Milky Way (as well as receding away from each other), hence Universe is expanding.

Universe is contracting are indicated if the those galaxies (outside of the Local Group) are appeared and measured in the blue wavelengths.

The discoveries of redshifts in those more distant galaxies, by Edwin Hubble in 1929, is what led Einstein to reject his own cosmological model. Einstein had also called his Cosmological Constant his greatest blunder.

The Static Universe is just unmoving, but eternally "unmoving" and eternally "unchanging", so the eternal universe is wrong.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Something cannot be unstable for an infinite amount of time

Time didn't exist.

and then collapse 13B years ago (it would have collapsed and infinite amount of time ago.

Time didn't exist.
Time came into existence with the universe.

So your "argument" here doesn't work. It's not sensible in light of the evidence available.
But likely, you're again not going to care about that, right? (see? I can play the passive aggressive game also)
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Time didn't exist.



Time didn't exist.
Time came into existence with the universe.
...

You don't know that because you can't observe that is the case or not the case. Your claim is unfalsifiable and that is the falsification of it. The falsification is unfalsifiable as per observation. Learn your base science.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
When a person says they don't have faith, or trust, then l wonder at how they manage in relationships. This lack of trust sounds very much like psychopathy to me!

If done on purpose, then it is very dishonest of you equate the various different meanings of the word "faith" as if "religious faith" is the same kind of faith as when one for example says "I have faith in your abilities" when trying to accomplish a certain feat.

Religious faith is NOT like trust (which is based on EVIDENCE).

I trust I'll be able to finish the 10-miles run of Antwerp, because I run sessions of at least 10 miles every week.
I have "faith" I can do it - and that faith is based on the EVIDENCE of me doing it every week.

This is NOT the same as "religious faith". Where "faith" rather means: to believe WITHOUT evidence.

Here's what the dictionary says:

upload_2022-10-12_9-53-26.png


When I use to word "faith" when expressing confidence of me being able to run the 10-miles of Antwerp, i'm using definition 1.

When a christian uses the word "faith" when expressing his/her basis for their religious belief, they are using definition 2.

These do not express the same idea.
They are very very different form one another.


And to equate them, is simply wrong.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
No, we are here when according to physics, we shouldn't be here - there should be N.O.T.H.I.N.G., but somehow there is something.

You are still misunderstanding the Big Bang theory.

The theory never indicated there being "nothing".

You and other creationists keep saying the BB theory proposed there being nothing before the Big Bang, but the BB had never proposed there being nothing, and they never proposed there being before the Universe.

So really you are the one making claim that have nothing to do with the Big Bang theory.

So the question for you, is WHAT WAS BEFORE THE OBSERVABLE UNIVERSE?

If you say God, was "BEFORE" the Universe, then you need to provide DETAILED EXPLANATION as to how the Universe "came to be", through observable EVIDENCE.

Can you show EVIDENCE that God is responsible for the Universe?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
If done on purpose, then it is very dishonest of you equate the various different meanings of the word "faith" as if "religious faith" is the same kind of faith as when one for example says "I have faith in your abilities" when trying to accomplish a certain feat.

Religious faith is NOT like trust (which is based on EVIDENCE).

I trust I'll be able to finish the 10-miles run of Antwerp, because I run sessions of at least 10 miles every week.
I have "faith" I can do it - and that faith is based on the EVIDENCE of me doing it every week.

This is NOT the same as "religious faith". Where "faith" rather means: to believe WITHOUT evidence.

Here's what the dictionary says:

View attachment 67431

When I use to word "faith" when expressing confidence of me being able to run the 10-miles of Antwerp, i'm using definition 1.

When a christian uses the word "faith" when expressing his/her basis for their religious belief, they are using definition 2.

These do not express the same idea.
They are very very different form one another.


And to equate them, is simply wrong.

This is in effect faith:
Philosophy of science - Wikipedia
"All scientific study inescapably builds on at least some essential assumptions that are untested by scientific processes."

The claim that the universe is natural can't be test by science. It is taken on effect the trust/faith that the universe is natural.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
You are still misunderstanding the Big Bang theory.

The theory never indicated there being "nothing".

You and other creationists keep saying the BB theory proposed there being nothing before the Big Bang, but the BB had never proposed there being nothing, and they never proposed there being before the Universe.

So really you are the one making claim that have nothing to do with the Big Bang theory.

So the question for you, is WHAT WAS BEFORE THE OBSERVABLE UNIVERSE?

If you say God, was "BEFORE" the Universe, then you need to provide DETAILED EXPLANATION as to how the Universe "came to be", through observable EVIDENCE.

Can you show EVIDENCE that God is responsible for the Universe?

I have no evidence for what the universe really is with evidence. Do you?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Adoption isn't related to biological lineage.



OK. Jesus was anointed. He had oil rubbed on him. That may be necessary but not sufficient. David was anointed. You're anointed: "And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee” (2 Corinthians 1:20-22)."



I didn't say that. I said that believing by faith is an alternative to justified belief, where justification is according to the standards of critical analysis of evidence. A belief is something one holds to be true, a claim about reality. All such beliefs are either justified or unjustified. The later and only the latter comprise belief by faith. Either one can demonstrate a claim to be correct



Yes, and when they do their academic work, they leave their faith behind, or else they come up with something unacceptable to academia. Newton was able to compartmentalize his faith when he worked out his celestial mechanics until he ran out of math, and then invoked faith. His work up until that point remains valid today, and is indistinguishable from the work any sufficiently talented atheist could have generated. His leap of faith has since been discarded, namely, that God nudges the planets to keep them in orbit around the sun. Also, all of his work on alchemy is rejected, a faith-based pseudoscience.



Disagree. Faith is not part of my life or my relationships. All of my beliefs are based by experience.



I've done it, and so have many other critical thinkers who love.



I trust my wife, but not by faith. She's proven herself trustworthy. If I had acted by faith, I might have asked her to marry me on our first date, before I knew her, since she was fun, smart, clean, and attractive from that first date. But I didn't know her yet. There was no track record yet. When there was, I did ask her to marry me. My belief that she would probably be faithful was based in experience. Acting on incomplete information is not believing by faith. If something is 90% likely to occur and one knows that, acting is not on faith, even if the outcome is the less desirable and less likely one.

Faith is extolled by religions that require it to be believed. It is called a virtue, and labeled pleasing to God. But it's nothing more than the will to believe with insufficient evidentiary support. And clearly it doesn't deserve that respect. Faith is unexamined belief, the shallowest of experiences essentially, the most unexamined of beliefs. It cannot be a path to truth except by incredible blind luck, and even if one guesses the truth correctly, he cannot know it until evidence revels it to be that. There are orders of magnitude more wrong guesses possible than correct ones, and any of those wrong ones is just as easily believed by faith as any correct ideas, with nothing to indicate which is which. You've guessed that a particular god exists absent sufficient evidence to justify that belief. You could just as easily have picked any other god, and combination of gods, or no god at all.

It's analogous to picking lottery numbers and believing that they are correct in a fair lottery. You're just guessing, and there are orders of magnitude more incorrect guesses that correct ones. And there is no way to tell which guess is correct until after the drawing, at which time believing you have the winning ticket goes from faith to evidence-backed fact.

Let me share a story. I mentioned that I'm happily married - 32 years last week - but this is not my first marriage. At age 18, while an atheist in the Army, I met a Christian girl also in the Army, who brought me into Christianity. I recall sitting on the barracks stairs with her one evening several weeks or months into our relationship, when the appearance of crepuscular sun rays filled me with the apprehension that the Holy Spirit had chosen her to be my wife. We eventually married. Unfortunately, being a good Christian, we had not had sexual relations. We didn't live together, and we both wore military uniforms in the day and Levis at night. I never saw her cook or clean or shop, because we didn't do those things living on base.

Well, the marriage was a failure. We were sexually incompatible - I liked it and she didn't. She was eccentric and pathologically cheap. She wanted to grow wheat for bread in our postage stamp backyard to save the cost of bread. We had nothing in common but Jesus, and that wasn't enough. She was so cheap that I couldn't get her to go out to dinner with me until I bought one of those coupon books for local restaurants that lets you get a free meal of equal or lesser value along with a paid meal. I would tell her, I'm going out, and I'm going to order a nice meal. You can come along for a free meal or stay home, I told her. Only then could we enjoy a meal out together, and frankly, I don't know if she enjoyed hers knowing that I paid more to eat than was absolutely necessary. And unsurprisingly, she was a hoarder.

I just couldn't live like that, and eventually got out of the marriage, a marriage that never would have happened if I had based the decision on evidence rather than faith. Faith is a terrible idea, and I paid a price to learn that. I guess it wasn't the Holy Spirit after all, or else He's a poor matchmaker. I eventually returned to atheism, went to university, learned critical thinking, and realized that believing by faith is a logical error, a fallacy that leads to non sequiturs and unsound conclusions.

And right there is the beauty and virtue of faith.
Allow me to take one point at a time.

Firstly, to my understanding, it is perfectly acceptable, on a legal basis, for Joseph to marry Mary and take the baby Jesus to be his own son. This is clearly not biological lineage but that's not the point. The point is that it is legally acceptable for Jesus to join the royal line of Joseph. Jesus is still a natural son of David through his birth by Mary.

Secondly, the anointing of Jesus was an anointing in the Holy Spirit. There was no anointing with oil. John, as a prophet and son of a priest, baptised repentant souls in water. The anointing of the son of God (and son of David) with the Holy Spirit is prophesied throughout the book of lsaiah, and it's the reason Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1 after his baptism and temptation. Jesus said, 'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me' - because it was!

Now, there is a difference between the anointing of Jesus and the anointing that falls on the Church at Pentecost. Jesus was perfect in faith and the outpouring of the Spirit on Jesus was without measure. This is not the case with believers, for each receives a measure in accordance with their limited faith. It's the body of Christ as a whole that receives the full measure, rather than any one individual.

The Bible is filled with numerous stories of men and women who demonstrated faith. This was not because they were dull and without reason, but because they understood that much of life is outside the control of our reason. For example, when the lsraelite army saw the giant Goliath in the ranks of the Philistine army they became fearful. Was this a rational response? Very much so. Reason teaches us to assess risk on a balanced scale. David, however, viewed the situation differently. His faith in God allowed him to approach Goliath without any human armour. David relied on his God-given talent and his faith.

Is faith without reason? Clearly not. Faith in God comes from hearing the word of God, and that word is found in its complete form in the scriptures of the Bible (lMO). To reach the conclusion that God is real, one usually travels one of two routes; it could be by the careful study of scripture, by which truth becomes known to the heart and mind; or, it could be by a direct revelation of the Holy Spirit on an area of one's own life, bringing about radical change.

Your personal experience of a marriage breakdown is not, in my view, a failure of faith in God, or of God. It was quite clearly an issue of incompatability from the start.

What l think many people overlook is that a person coming to faith is beginning a new life. Every Christian begins life as a 'babe in Christ', even if they come to faith at 60. A person may have a new Spirit but their mind (and bad habits) must be renewed in accordance with the mind of Christ. These changes take time, and the road to perfection is a long road.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
No, Redemptionsong.

That’s only a claim that suggest the genealogy from Luke 3 could be that of Mary’s line, and yet the passage actually says that Heli was Joseph’s father, not Mary’s father, as Mary isn’t mentioned at all in the genealogy.

Mary’s parents were never mentioned in any of gospels and anywhere else in the NT.

But Mary’s ancestors can be indirectly linked to the prophet Aaron through her relative Elizabeth:





The only time, Mary’s parents were named, comes from New Testament apocryphal text, the Gospel of James (2nd century, most likely the original was written in Greek), where she was named as daughter of Joachim and Anne.

The author was “attributed” to James the Just, the brother of Jesus. So being an “attributed to”, would mean it was written by someone else but using the name James.

The gospel of James was popular account of Mary's life among the church traditions, because over 100 copies survived in various different languages or translations.

So many of the churches or sects from 2nd century to the 4th century, assume that Mary’s father was Joachim, not that of Heli.

So I find that any modern interpretations to Luke 3 that this genealogy belonging to Mary’s is nothing more than being apologetics, including from that of Torrey’s.

I really can’t comment on Torrey’s work, because I have not read his work, but did he mention “Joachim” at all?
If you read Torrey's article carefully, you will see that he explains Mary's absence from the genealogy, and the issue of Coniah [Jeremiah 22:30].
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Given the lack of consistency in interpretations who can honestly say they have the correct one? This is the absurdity of Christianity and the incoherency of the Bible.


I suggest the vast majority of those who call themselves Christians is because of social influence, and this includes family. Nothing suggests any believer came to a logical and considered decision to become a Christian. Look at the lack of Christians in India, or the Middle East, or Africa before colonial forces imosed Christianity on the indigenous people. The same with South America that is most Christian these days, but was not until Europeans showed u and murdered them until they surrendered their own culture.


Well unfortunately this magic doesn't happen UNLESS the person also learns they have to respond the way you describe. Magic? No, mimickry. Humans are very good at mimicking the behavior that gets them acepted into the tribe.

Your claim here should work on critical minds, but it doesn't. Christians insist we thinkers are spiritually dead and just don't get it. But the observations don't back this up. Many thinkers have the compassion and empathy and concern that is equal to any religous person. The religious dogma fails to make an impression because thinkers are expecting the magic to happen instead of creating it artifically. No God shows up. No magic happens.


I don't think Jesus words and actions are irrational. In fact many Humanists agree with Jesus, and live in a similar way to what jesus taught. The odd thing is why so many conservative Christians don't follow Jesus. It is they who disagree with Jesus, not many atheists. Many atheists are not Christian, but they live like they are.


With some 66 or 72 books of the Bible there are some 40 different writers. I'm sure the books were edited and only the most talented were valued. When the Bible was assembled in the 4th century there were over 200 books, so the majority were rejected, and most destroyed. Around 2/3 of God's Word was thrown out.


There are secular definitions for the word faith, which includes trust. What you say here is completely irrelevant to the religious meanings. Tim the evangelical can have faith in God but have no faith in women due to being rejected by them time after time. See how that works?
The word used in the NT is 'pistis' meaning trust or confidence. It is no different to the trust used in human relationships, because this trust is used of Jesus when he walked the earth. Why should faith in Jesus be different from faith in your wife? The only difference may be that Jesus proves himself to be totally reliable!!

What you have expressed in your post is a point of view based on your experience. I happen to have had a very different experience of life based on faith in Jesus Christ.

When it comes to interpretation, there are methods employed that help to minimise the risk of error. Private interpretation of scripture is frowned upon, making the Church as a whole (all denominations) the true arbiter of what constitites dogma. The key to practical study is to ensure that an interpretation takes account of all the scriptures, and is not based on just a selection. It is also apparent that scripture provides the answers to the key questions about life, such that non-biblical evidence on these issues is necessary only to support these revelations.

Another means by which truth is revealed is through the Holy Spirit. Jesus promised that he would send the Spirit and that the Spirit would lead people into the truth, and remind them of the words that he spoke.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
If you read Torrey's article carefully, you will see that he explains Mary's absence from the genealogy, and the issue of Coniah [Jeremiah 22:30].

As I said, I have not read Torrey, but was he ever aware of the Gospel of James?

I am dubious of the all New Testament, not just the extra-biblical texts like those of in the Apocrypha, but even then, there may be information that may or may not be true.

And as I stated my last post, Mary was never named as daughter of Heli, not in the canonical texts (eg gospels Matthew & Luke) and non-canonical texts (eg Apocryphal texts, gospel of James). But the 2nd century gospel of James do mention that Joachim being her father and Anne being her mother.

Do you not see that Torrey who think and believe that Heli might be Mary's father, which doesn't exist any texts, including nothing in early Church traditions and exegesis from early church fathers, suspicious?

The problems with Torrey, is he have no early sources, just his interpretations that Heli was her father. What Torrey and what you are doing, are just pure speculations.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I have no evidence for what the universe really is with evidence. Do you?

Really, no evidence?

What do you think this planet, our Sun, and all the stars in the Milky Way, and all the other galaxies discovered in the last 100 years?

There are no evidence?

We know that the Universe contained many of the objects that are made of compounds and molecules, which are themselves made of atoms, and atoms are made of even smaller particles. And we know that fields and related particles (bosons) are responsible for the forces that interact with particles.

All of these are responsible for the formation of matters and much larger structures (life, planets, stars, galaxies, etc).

Now, there may be other more particles and fields that unknown to us, but we can theorize and speculate as to what they could be, but until there are evidence for them, it is enough to know that what exist in our galaxy also exist other parts of the universe.

But you think there are no evidence?

So unless everyone are suffering from mass delusion or is it just you are the one with the delusion?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
As I said, I have not read Torrey, but was he ever aware of the Gospel of James?

I am dubious of the all New Testament, not just the extra-biblical texts like those of in the Apocrypha, but even then, there may be information that may or may not be true.

And as I stated my last post, Mary was never named as daughter of Heli, not in the canonical texts (eg gospels Matthew & Luke) and non-canonical texts (eg Apocryphal texts, gospel of James). But the 2nd century gospel of James do mention that Joachim being her father and Anne being her mother.

Do you not see that Torrey who think and believe that Heli might be Mary's father, which doesn't exist any texts, including nothing in early Church traditions and exegesis from early church fathers, suspicious?

The problems with Torrey, is he have no early sources, just his interpretations that Heli was her father. What Torrey and what you are doing, are just pure speculations.
I believe that God is in control. The Holy Spirit works within the Church and helps to discern truth from error. The compilation of the canon of scripture took place under the power of the Holy Spirit.

The case presented by Torrey is based on the accepted canon of scripture and l have no reason to think it requires confirmation from more dubious sources. Had these genealogies been false, commentators would have noticed in the first century when documentary evidence relating the David's genealogy still existed in the city of Jerusalem.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Really, no evidence?

What do you think this planet, our Sun, and all the stars in the Milky Way, and all the other galaxies discovered in the last 100 years?

There are no evidence?

We know that the Universe contained many of the objects that are made of compounds and molecules, which are themselves made of atoms, and atoms are made of even smaller particles. And we know that fields and related particles (bosons) are responsible for the forces that interact with particles.

All of these are responsible for the formation of matters and much larger structures (life, planets, stars, galaxies, etc).

Now, there may be other more particles and fields that unknown to us, but we can theorize and speculate as to what they could be, but until there are evidence for them, it is enough to know that what exist in our galaxy also exist other parts of the universe.

But you think there are no evidence?

So unless everyone are suffering from mass delusion or is it just you are the one with the delusion?

Just respond to this with actual quotes embedded and we will see.
Philosophy of science - Wikipedia
Start there:
"All scientific study inescapably builds on at least some essential assumptions that are untested by scientific processes.[43][44] Kuhn concurs that all science is based on an approved agenda of unprovable assumptions about the character of the universe, rather than merely on empirical facts. These assumptions—a paradigm—comprise a collection of beliefs, values and techniques that are held by a given scientific community, which legitimize their systems and set the limitations to their investigation.[45] For naturalists, nature is the only reality, the only paradigm. There is no such thing as 'supernatural'. The scientific method is to be used to investigate all reality,[46] and Naturalism is the implicit philosophy of working scientists.[47]"
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member


OK, first, NONE of these say there should be NOTHING.

The latter ones point to a well-known problem of why we have matter and no anti-matter in the universe. We *know* there is an asymmetry between the two (it has been observed), but we don't know the details of why matter now dominates.

I there were equal amounts of matter and anti-matter, the universe would look very different, but it would NOT simply not be here: there would be a massive amount of photon energy and no matter or anti-matter (or very little). So, not what you claimed.

The first does essentially the same with another issue: how the early universe interacts with the Higg's field. Given that there is a LOT we don't know about this particular topic (such as whether there is more than one Higg's field), I would say let the work play out and see what happens.

In *all* of these you get a very common problem: popular articles are written by *journalists* and they want hype and something dramatic to sell their story. I would suggest learning a bit more science and reading the scientific papers, not the popular press.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
OK, first, NONE of these say there should be NOTHING.

The latter ones point to a well-known problem of why we have matter and no anti-matter in the universe. We *know* there is an asymmetry between the two (it has been observed), but we don't know the details of why matter now dominates.

I there were equal amounts of matter and anti-matter, the universe would look very different, but it would NOT simply not be here: there would be a massive amount of photon energy and no matter or anti-matter (or very little). So, not what you claimed.

The first does essentially the same with another issue: how the early universe interacts with the Higg's field. Given that there is a LOT we don't know about this particular topic (such as whether there is more than one Higg's field), I would say let the work play out and see what happens.

In *all* of these you get a very common problem: popular articles are written by *journalists* and they want hype and something dramatic to sell their story. I would suggest learning a bit more science and reading the scientific papers, not the popular press.

"So, not what you claimed."

I never made a claim. So there's that.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
"So, not what you claimed."

I never made a claim. So there's that.

Actually, you said that the science said there should be N.O.T.H.I.N.G. You even used the periods like this.

That claim is wrong.

Oh, and I asked for actual physics texts, articles, or refereed papers, not popular accounts.
 
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