Cessation of Suffering and Rebirth...Why?

[Muffled]

I am not a Buddhist, nor have I ever studied Buddhism or Hinduism (I don't follow any such paths), but I will attempt to answer this for you...

There is nothing wrong with suffering or dying. It is our overactive human minds that make bad things or wrong things out of what are otherwise natural everyday experiences for all conscious living creatures. Man's problem is that we tend to dwell on those things that cause us stress or suffering rather than freeing ourselves of those attachments. We are slaves to the mind. The objective is to still that mind so we are no longer slaves to it.


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I do not doubt that becoming detached leads to a lack of self inflicted suffering but that does not eliminate suffering caused by others. I don't believe it should simply be a mind game to pretnd that suffering did not occur.

For instance I believe an attachment to money can cause stealing which causes suffering both for the perpetrator and the victim. However the victim can simply detach himself from that which was stolen and aleviate the suffering to some extent but the evil act is still present with the victim until the person detaches himself from it by forgiving the perpetrator. The perpetrator in order to be unattached from his act has to return what was stolen and ask for the victims forgiveness.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I do not doubt that becoming detached leads to a lack of self inflicted suffering but that does not eliminate suffering caused by others. I don't believe it should simply be a mind game to pretnd that suffering did not occur.

For instance I believe an attachment to money can cause stealing which causes suffering both for the perpetrator and the victim. However the victim can simply detach himself from that which was stolen and aleviate the suffering to some extent but the evil act is still present with the victim until the person detaches himself from it by forgiving the perpetrator. The perpetrator in order to be unattached from his act has to return what was stolen and ask for the victims forgiveness.

If one is detached from money and things, the fact that something of theirs was stolen doesn't cause one suffering. It's something basically along the lines of mind over matter, but applied spiritually. There's no need to suffer at the loss of one's possessions, when one has no attachment to those possessions in the first place.

 

[Muffled]

namaskaram sandy :namaste



please ask any question you wish ...

if translating Dukkha I would have used suffering , as the Budddha identified the cycle if life and birth to be un satisfactory , due to its imperminent tansitory nature and that there is no escaping birth , old age , sickness and death .

there are also degrees of suffering in daliy life the Buddha atributed these to our levels of attatchment , there is also the suffering caused by ignorance .

unfortunately there seems to be a modern take on Buddhism which prefers to call call suffering stress ? but the sanskrit Duhkha from which the Pali dukkha originates translates as 'suffering' , greif , dissagreable , distressfull , full of sorrow , .....

there are many words used in translation from pali which are not wholely inkeeping with the original usage which can cause quite some amount of confusion .it is often usefull to refer back to sanskrit to gain a fuller perspective .

I appreciate that. I don't usually visit the Dirs so it was great to have this come over to debates where I can learn from it. However there are some things on this thread that I just can't get my mind around at present so it is even difficult to think of a pertinent question.

Somehow this appears more like a value judgement than a logical perspective.
Is this pain avoidance? i believe in order to avoid pain one must avoid life and that means the person is dead. Somehow that doesn't sound so wonderful to me.

I read a fictional book recently where a Buddhist fictional character detached himself so fully from life that he nearly died and his teacher had to keep him alive by extreme means. Somehow I have to believe that this is a corruption of Buddhist thought and not the mainstream.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

However there are some things on this thread that I just can't get my mind around at present so it is even difficult to think of a pertinent question.

That generally happens when you try to understand one worldview when working under the mindset of a completely different worldview.

Somehow this appears more like a value judgement than a logical perspective.
Is this pain avoidance? i believe in order to avoid pain one must avoid life and that means the person is dead. Somehow that doesn't sound so wonderful to me.

One can't avoid pain, or the things that cause pain. What we can do, however, is to "reboot" our minds, in order for the pain or the things that cause it to cause no mental anguish.

I read a fictional book recently where a Buddhist fictional character detached himself so fully from life that he nearly died and his teacher had to keep him alive by extreme means. Somehow I have to believe that this is a corruption of Buddhist thought and not the mainstream.

Yeah, somehow, this scenario seems to go against the Buddha's middle way.

 

[Muffled]

If one is detached from money and things, the fact that something of theirs was stolen doesn't cause one suffering. It's something basically along the lines of mind over matter, but applied spiritually. There's no need to suffer at the loss of one's possessions, when one has no attachment to those possessions in the first place.

I agree. However I don't see the attachmment as a necessarily bad thing or the suffering due to loss. As is often said "I would have rather loved and lost than never to have loved at all." I see that which casues suffering, the stealing as the bad thing. However I believe the Christian perspective for things like money are that they are a gift that we have for a time and that it is not permanently ours. I can see not getting too attached to that which is not permanent but that does not mean that like life it can't be enjoyed for the time we have it.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I agree. However I don't see the attachmment as a necessarily bad thing or the suffering due to loss. As is often said "I would have rather loved and lost than never to have loved at all." I see that which casues suffering, the stealing as the bad thing. However I believe the Christian perspective for things like money are that they are a gift that we have for a time and that it is not permanently ours. I can see not getting too attached to that which is not permanent but that does not mean that like life it can't be enjoyed for the time we have it.

The Buddhist view is that attachment is a bad thing because it doesn't lead to living the holy life, it takes away from it. Buddhism teaches that things can still be enjoyed without being attached to them. We just have to be careful (or rather, mindful), or else our enjoyment of something can quickly lead to attachment of a thing, if we don't guard our minds.

 

[Muffled]

That generally happens when you try to understand one worldview when working under the mindset of a completely different worldview.

One can't avoid pain, or the things that cause pain. What we can do, however, is to "reboot" our minds, in order for the pain or the things that cause it to cause no mental anguish.

Yeah, somehow, this scenario seems to go against the Buddha's middle way.[/quote]

Buddha has a middle way? I believe this is somewhat contrary to Jesus who wants people either hot or cold but not luke warm. However His view may only pertain to allegiance to Him since He is permanent and can be attached without loss. He is the rock we cling to when everything else is shaken. However Jesus provides life not death and He does not lead on a path of self destruction.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Yes, the Buddha taught the middle way between extremes, such as the extremes of complete self indulgence, and the extreme of complete self denial.

 

[Runewolf1973]

That generally happens when you try to understand one worldview when working under the mindset of a completely different worldview.

One can't avoid pain, or the things that cause pain. What we can do, however, is to "reboot" our minds, in order for the pain or the things that cause it to cause no mental anguish.

Yeah, somehow, this scenario seems to go against the Buddha's middle way.[/quote]

Buddha has a middle way? I believe this is somewhat contrary to Jesus who wants people either hot or cold but not luke warm. However His view may only pertain to allegiance to Him since He is permanent and can be attached without loss. He is the rock we cling to when everything else is shaken. However Jesus provides life not death and He does not lead on a path of self destruction.

This to me is basically just replacing one attachment, desire, or craving for another...a more desireable one.

 

[ratikala]

namaste :namaste

I appreciate that. I don't usually visit the Dirs so it was great to have this come over to debates where I can learn from it. However there are some things on this thread that I just can't get my mind around at present so it is even difficult to think of a pertinent question.

dont worry questions dont need to be pertinent ....

Somehow this appears more like a value judgement than a logical perspective.
Is this pain avoidance? i believe in order to avoid pain one must avoid life and that means the person is dead. Somehow that doesn't sound so wonderful to me.

it allways amazes me how ones persons mind finds one system logical and the other difficult to comprehend and for another it is vica verca . and many buddhists will accknowledge that there are numerous paths each suited to different types of person .

to me pain or suffering is in some way an inevitable part of life , but on the other hand the depth of pain or suffering is down to our personal state of mind .

most Buddhist's understand the value of training the mind to avoid un nececary attatchment to the causes of suffering , this is much like anger mannagement , where we are taught not to react to negative or detremental stimuli , this dosent mean one becomes less of a person it simply means that we become better more ballanced persons , more controlled and able to focus our energies on positive growth and learning . imagine being able to remove the annoying habits we refer to as the afflictive emotions , greed , anger , jealousy , hatred ,envy and lust , ... how much easier our lives would be , how much more time we would have to devote to the things that are realy important to us , look at it this way and you will see that this is not avoiding life but making the most of this life , this is living as it should be free from the pains of the negative emotions .

I read a fictional book recently where a Buddhist fictional character detached himself so fully from life that he nearly died and his teacher had to keep him alive by extreme means. Somehow I have to believe that this is a corruption of Buddhist thought and not the mainstream.

any thing can be taken to an un nececary extreme , especialy to sell a book

on the whole the mainstream of buddhist practice is to learn to become a better person , which dosent nececarily mean becoming an extreme ascetic it means becoming a better more ballanced person .

 

[Runewolf1973]

namaste :namaste



dont worry questions dont need to be pertinent ....
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it allways amazes me how ones persons mind finds one system logical and the other difficult to comprehend and for another it is vica verca . and many buddhists will accknowledge that there are numerous paths each suited to different types of person .

to me pain or suffering is in some way an inevitable part of life , but on the other hand the depth of pain or suffering is down to our personal state of mind .

most Buddhist's understand the value of training the mind to avoid un nececary attatchment to the causes of suffering , this is much like anger mannagement , where we are taught not to react to negative or detremental stimuli , this dosent mean one becomes less of a person it simply means that we become better more ballanced persons , more controlled and able to focus our energies on positive growth and learning . imagine being able to remove the annoying habits we refer to as the afflictive emotions , greed , anger , jealousy , hatred ,envy and lust , ... how much easier our lives would be , how much more time we would have to devote to the things that are realy important to us , look at it this way and you will see that this is not avoiding life but making the most of this life , this is living as it should be free from the pains of the negative emotions .



any thing can be taken to an un nececary extreme , especialy to sell a book

on the whole the mainstream of buddhist practice is to learn to become a better person , which dosent nececarily mean becoming an extreme ascetic it means becoming a better more ballanced person .

Good post ratikala.

 

[Nooj]

Ok, you say that no one like suffering or wants to see but have not given what is wrong with it. Until it can be shown to be wrong, trying to get rid of it is pointless.

in which case then we shouldn't be trying to alleviate the suffering of one's pet, no? after all until we sit down and analyse what my cat is feeling, and find justification for why it is wrong to suffer, then trying to get rid of my cat's pain is pointless.

don't speak of right or wrong. people just don't like to be in pain. that is reason enough to try to alleviate it.

 

[Muffled]

This to me is basically just replacing one attachment, desire, or craving for another...a more desireable one.

I believe that an attachment to Buddhism does not produce suffering and an attachment to Jesus does not either. However I believe Buddhism is less effective at reducing suffering.

 

[Muffled]

The Buddhist view is that attachment is a bad thing because it doesn't lead to living the holy life, it takes away from it. Buddhism teaches that things can still be enjoyed without being attached to them. We just have to be careful (or rather, mindful), or else our enjoyment of something can quickly lead to attachment of a thing, if we don't guard our minds.

I believe then that the correct understanding is that attachment is not an absolute cause of suffering and that in moderation it is OK but in the extreme it causes suffering. The Biblical word for extreme attachment is called coveting.

I have attachments and lead a holy life. I suppose it is like a person who drinks alcohol. A little won't cause most people problems but a lot of alcohol usually causes problems and a little alcohol is poison for an alcoholic.