Challenge for those that believe in billions of years for the age of things. Give anything that is more than 6000 years old. NO ASSUMPTIONS ALLOWED.

[SavedByTheLord]

What?


Examples....?


It can and does.

"Taken individually and collectively, population genomics studies strongly suggest that our lineage has not experienced an extreme population bottleneck in the last nine million years or more (and thus not in any hominid, nor even an australopithecine species), and that any bottlenecks our lineage did experience were a reduction only to a population of several thousand breeding individuals. As such, the hypothesis that humans are genetically derived from a single ancestral pair in the recent past has no support from a genomics perspective, and, indeed, is counter to a large body of evidence."

-- Genesis and the Genome (pdf).​

This was posted by somebody else a while back and it neatly explains why a worldwide flood, as described in Genesis, couldn't have happened:

He used a false reasoning.
He tried to disprove the food by reasoning that it violated physical law.
I am not sure that that claim was true.
But God Almighty can and has violated physical law.
So his conclusion is false.

 

[ratiocinator]

He tried to disprove the food by reasoning that it violated physical law.

Wrong video.

That one's about archaeology. I think you're referring to this one, which is about meteorology:

So it's impossible according to both meteorology and archaeology.

But God Almighty can and has violated physical law.

Which is why "GodDidIt" doesn't explain anything.

So his conclusion is false.

According to your evidence-free blind faith.

 

[SavedByTheLord]

Wrong video.

That one's about archaeology. I think you're referring to this one, which is about meteorology:

So it's impossible according to both meteorology and archaeology.


Which is why "GodDidIt" doesn't explain anything.


According to your evidence-free blind faith.

It still had the same false assumption.

He used a false reasoning.
He tried to disprove the food by reasoning that it violated physical law.
I am not sure that that claim was true.
But God Almighty can and has violated physical law.
So his conclusion is false.

 

[ratiocinator]

He used a false reasoning.
He tried to disprove the food by reasoning that it violated physical law.

You're still not addressing the first (archaeology) video. And your objection to the second is still rather silly for the reasons I stated. I don't understand what you think you gain by endless repetition...

 

[Kenny]

Hi Kenny

Thank you for the clarification. I agree with you on the latter.

I may have swept up your statement by overgeneralizing it with similar claims I have read on this forum and others. I apologize if I have mischaracterized your intent.

It is my belief, that God has granted us gifts of senses and fine minds to reason with and learn and a universe to learn from Having done this, it seems reasonable to me that He would want us to and not want us to seal ourselves into the understandings of ancient people with less knowledge. Rather build on what they learned and learn more.

Thank you for the grace given.

IMV, God has made man to discover and create. But we have seen how we can create drugs that destroy lives. We see this example in so many areas.

When we apply wisdom, that comes from above, we create to produce more life. This is God’s design.

As per my signature below, we should be spirit beings first and letting it have preeminence over our senses. When we do this, we find life. When we become sense driven, lust of the eyes and flesh, and the pride of life, we end up having problems

The context of my previous statement is that when man thinks he is so smart and wise, pride sets in and destruction comes after. In comparison to all that there is yet to know, we know so little. So much to yet discover.

 

[YoursTrue]

More about volcanic rock and sedimentation: (hmmm...)
"Volcaniclastic sedimentary rocks are the products of volcanic rocks by weathering, transportation, and redeposition and mostly occur near the interaction zone of volcanic cones and lacustrine water bodies or around volcanic islands." (No kidding...) https://volcanology.geol.ucsb.edu/facies.htm
@Subduction Zone and @SavedByTheLord and whoever might be interested.

 

[YoursTrue]

Thank you for the grace given.

IMV, God has made man to discover and create. But we have seen how we can create drugs that destroy lives. We see this example in so many areas.

When we apply wisdom, that comes from above, we create to produce more life. This is God’s design.

As per my signature below, we should be spirit beings first and letting it have preeminence over our senses. When we do this, we find life. When we become sense driven, lust of the eyes and flesh, and the pride of life, we end up having problems

The context of my previous statement is that when man thinks he is so smart and wise, pride sets in and destruction comes after. In comparison to all that there is yet to know, we know so little. So much to yet discover.

Yes. Insofar as bad creative things, some of us know and believe that things are going to change based on what the Bible says. One of my favorite scriptures is Revelation chapter 21:1-5. Where it speaks of "new heavens AND ... a new earth." What a wonderful promise. Keeping that in mind, Kenny and wife, have a very good day looking forward.

 

[Valjean]

What?


Examples....?


It can and does.

"Taken individually and collectively, population genomics studies strongly suggest that our lineage has not experienced an extreme population bottleneck in the last nine million years or more (and thus not in any hominid, nor even an australopithecine species), and that any bottlenecks our lineage did experience were a reduction only to a population of several thousand breeding individuals. As such, the hypothesis that humans are genetically derived from a single ancestral pair in the recent past has no support from a genomics perspective, and, indeed, is counter to a large body of evidence."

-- Genesis and the Genome (pdf).​

This was posted by somebody else a while back and it neatly explains why a worldwide flood, as described in Genesis, couldn't have happened:

Have you seen these?

AronRa has a whole series of flood videos on YouTube: Anthropology, Mythology, Archeology, Zoology, Paleontology, Dendrochronology, Meteorology, Disarticulation, and plain old Science. Lots of interesting info.

 

[YoursTrue]

It is not just lava flows.
Supposedly very old things not C-14 dead
Very long dates for know recent things.
And very inconsistent dating on the same thing.
But dating something 2.7 billion years that was just 10 years invalidates the technique

Back for a moment (a rather acrimonious "discussion" of sorts was held a while back) to lava flows. For those interested in the possibility of problematic situations with certain dating situations, here is an interesting point about redeposition: https://volcanology.geol.ucsb.edu/facies.htm "Volcaniclastic sedimentary rocks are the products of volcanic rocks by weathering, transportation, and redeposition and mostly occur near the interaction zone of volcanic cones and lacustrine water bodies or around volcanic islands." Also @Subduction Zone for your reading pleasure.

 

[Valjean]

He used a false reasoning.
He tried to disprove the food by reasoning that it violated physical law.
I am not sure that that claim was true.
But God Almighty can and has violated physical law.
So his conclusion is false.

As I said before, If God habitually suspends or alters physical laws, then anything can be true, any claim made, and who's to dispute it? Of course, this also leaves believers with no foundation for their beliefs, either.

It renders all discussion of the subject meaningless, so why, SBTL, are you even posting here, if there are no hard facts or evidence on either side?

 

[YoursTrue]

As I said before, If God habitually suspends or alters physical laws, then anything can be true, any claim made, and who's to dispute it? Of course, this also leaves believers with no foundation for their beliefs, either.

It renders all discussion of the subject meaningless, so why, SBTL, are you even posting here, if there are no hard facts or evidence on either side?

No. Not any claim. But some claims need to be taken in harmony with real facts and/or discernment. "The one rates day above day, the other rates every day--let each have his own conviction." Romans 14:5

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Thank you for the grace given.

IMV, God has made man to discover and create. But we have seen how we can create drugs that destroy lives. We see this example in so many areas.

The same knowledge that can be applied to benefit can be applied to detriment. What we learn is not inherently good or evil of its own accord.

Knowledge of sticks and stones did not require formal science to see it applied to building homes and killing others.

There is no wisdom in hiding from knowledge out of some perceived fear of it. The wisdom is in how we apply it. Any good or evil is in the application.

Is there wisdom in resisting knowledge, because it does not fit with an individual or particular group world view? Or is it wisdom to try and understand that knowledge and its context in a view of the world? By world view, I mean not only what is believed, but how it is believed.

When we apply wisdom, that comes from above, we create to produce more life. This is God’s design.

Is it wise to reject knowledge for our own purposes, rather than accept it and come to understand it?

We are conversing on a thread that is titled as a challenge. It is one of a series of such threads, each making much the same claim in the same fashion. Is it an expression of wisdom considering that the very title is a logical fallacy attempting to apply the burden of proof for its central claims onto others? Is it wisdom to make a claim, demand others support their position and consider that failure as support of the initial claim or claims? What happens when the answers do come or they already exist and have been delivered? Is it wisdom to ignore valid responses and keep repeating the original motif as if it were unassailed?

Is the method of this thread a sound and wise application or is it merely an extension of personal pride run amok?

As per my signature below, we should be spirit beings first and letting it have preeminence over our senses. When we do this, we find life. When we become sense driven, lust of the eyes and flesh, and the pride of life, we end up having problems

I think that our quest for knowledge is a product of the very spirit of humanity of which you speak. I personally do not see that spirit reflected in demands that the only true path to wisdom is to ignore knowledge we don't find comfort in and accept only that which we do. What is liked varies and others may not be of such a mind.

The context of my previous statement is that when man thinks he is so smart and wise, pride sets in and destruction comes after. In comparison to all that there is yet to know, we know so little. So much to yet discover.

There is a difference between pride and confidence. Confidence builds and pride can destroy. Pride might tell us to ignore what man has learned as easily as it can demand to consider only what we have learned. Pride can tell us that we can discern things that we really cannot or that some do so with personal bias and willful blindness.

I do not see wisdom in locking ourselves onto a single way and rejecting the many paths that lead to the same destination by pridefully declaring ours the only way there.

I think God gave us minds to think, reason and draw the best conclusions we can. It is a fact that I do not often see that happen everywhere and often to the point that it is rejected as having no value. That interests me.

Again, thanks for the clarification and expansion of your thoughts on these things. I pray both our paths continue forward to greater knowledge and with the increasing wisdom to apply that knowledge justly.

 

[YoursTrue]

@Valjean Oh, and yes, people can make any claim, that's true, but it doesn't have to mean it's the truth. Some people claim to transmigrate upon death, maybe go to a cockroach, a bunny, or a cow. Etc. Others claim to talk to the dead. Some others claim that the unsaved burn forever in a real hot place. So in a way you're right -- people can make all sorts of claims. But they don't all have to be true, do they? As said, "The one rates day above day, the other rates every day—let each have his own conviction." You have yours and others have theirs.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

As I said before, If God habitually suspends or alters physical laws, then anything can be true, any claim made, and who's to dispute it? Of course, this also leaves believers with no foundation for their beliefs, either.

It renders all discussion of the subject meaningless, so why, SBTL, are you even posting here, if there are no hard facts or evidence on either side?

I believe I see what you are saying.

Extending that thought as it occurs to me, this way could mean that God destroyed the world in a flood in a way that purposefully left no evidence of a flood or He removed that evidence at some point subsequent for reasons I cannot fathom and make no sense in a Divinity that admonishes false witness. If that nature exists in God, then how could anything learned from God be considered as "truth", when it could potentially not be "truth"?

I have seen claims that God salted the Earth with dinosaur fossils. The fossils aren't real, but magically created to test us. How would such a thing establish the "the way, the truth and the light" when it is an idea not representing an act of truth?

I find it much more logical to consider that this evidence suggests that following an interpretation of literalism creates logical opposition. Evidence suggests that method of interpretation means I do not really understand the Bible as I was taught I should. Then that method of interpretation is not absolute and universal and shouldn't be so applied as if it is.

I realize this idea is heretical to some, but I cannot understand why they make the demands they do in the first place unless it is out of fear. And fear should not be the basis of faith. It is not biblical in my view to place the work of a literal interpretation as a stipulation for salvation when Christ did not.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Back for a moment (a rather acrimonious "discussion" of sorts was held a while back) to lava flows. For those interested in the possibility of problematic situations with certain dating situations, here is an interesting point about redeposition: https://volcanology.geol.ucsb.edu/facies.htm "Volcaniclastic sedimentary rocks are the products of volcanic rocks by weathering, transportation, and redeposition and mostly occur near the interaction zone of volcanic cones and lacustrine water bodies or around volcanic islands." Also @Subduction Zone for your reading pleasure.

Out of context, but yes, some volcanic rocks, specifically ash flows, can be considered sedimentary. But that does not include lava. And you were always talking about lava. Didn't you read the article that you linked? It made it rather clear. If you see a term that you do not understand such as "volcaniclastic" you can just highlight that word and do a Google search of it. Here is the first article that comes up when I use that technique:

Volcaniclastics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You will note that lava is not a volcaniclastic.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is not just lava flows.
Supposedly very old things not C-14 dead
Very long dates for know recent things.
And very inconsistent dating on the same thing.
But dating something 2.7 billion years that was just 10 years invalidates the technique

Nope. Your example is worthless because you cannot show that they followed proper protocol. I have looked into this in the past and could not find anything that showed that they did so. I found one article once on how they supposedly collected their materials, but all sorts of details were not there. For your article to be valid you need to be able to show that they followed proper protocol. Especially with C14. There are too many ways that contaminants can get into the sample. And you claimed that the testing facility is supposed to remove contaminants. I know from past history that this is not true. Sources cannot clean up materials if they do not know what they are dealing with. You would need to show that the dating companies were fully aware of what they were working with and at least one was clearly not.

By the way, showing that they followed proper protocol is your burden of proof. Part of proper protocol is to openly publish in a means that demonstrates that one followed it. I have never seen such a publication.

Here is just one challenge that I am very sure that you will not be able to pass. Part of protocol is a very accurate description of where the samples were found and what strata that they were recovered from along with evidence of this. That appears to be missing in all of the samples. The reason? As I said, C14 contamination from modern sources is very common. Giving the strata can allow others to test to see if the strata itself has been contaminated with C14.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and when it comes to evidence even ordinary evidence is missing here. You are just pushing pseudoscience again.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It still had the same false assumption.

He used a false reasoning.
He tried to disprove the food by reasoning that it violated physical law.
I am not sure that that claim was true.
But God Almighty can and has violated physical law.
So his conclusion is false.

So now you are claiming that God is a liar again. Yes, an omnipotent God could break the laws of science and cover up his evil deeds. But now you have an even bigger problem of a God that actively lies to you. You cannot trust his promises of salvation now. Nice shooting. Another shot lodged firmly in your own foot.

 

[McBell]

You're still not addressing the first (archaeology) video. And your objection to the second is still rather silly for the reasons I stated. I don't understand what you think you gain by endless repetition...

I suspect it has something to do with the "if you repeat a lie enough times, it will be believed as truth" that Trump is famous for.

 

[SavedByTheLord]

Nope. Your example is worthless because you cannot show that they followed proper protocol. I have looked into this in the past and could not find anything that showed that they did so. I found one article once on how they supposedly collected their materials, but all sorts of details were not there. For your article to be valid you need to be able to show that they followed proper protocol. Especially with C14. There are too many ways that contaminants can get into the sample. And you claimed that the testing facility is supposed to remove contaminants. I know from past history that this is not true. Sources cannot clean up materials if they do not know what they are dealing with. You would need to show that the dating companies were fully aware of what they were working with and at least one was clearly not.

By the way, showing that they followed proper protocol is your burden of proof. Part of proper protocol is to openly publish in a means that demonstrates that one followed it. I have never seen such a publication.

Here is just one challenge that I am very sure that you will not be able to pass. Part of protocol is a very accurate description of where the samples were found and what strata that they were recovered from along with evidence of this. That appears to be missing in all of the samples. The reason? As I said, C14 contamination from modern sources is very common. Giving the strata can allow others to test to see if the strata itself has been contaminated with C14.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and when it comes to evidence even ordinary evidence is missing here. You are just pushing pseudoscience again.

Some of these were dated at non creationists labs with a good reputation among evolutionists.
BTW, the tissue of many of these is still soft, has blood vessels, DNA and amino acids that are not racemic 50-50.

 

[YoursTrue]

It's been an experience learning what others believe. I'm not the judge of others, but I appreciate learning how others think. It helps. I can decide (judge perhaps?) what I think of what others think. Put it in perspective. So thanks, folks! Hope you all have a good day...There's more but really if anyone here actually believes in God, it's in His hands... so take care, folks.