Challenge: I'm willing to convert if.......

[sayak83]

In addition to what @sayak83 said, it may also be helpful to move away from the idea of the Abrahamic concept of a "soul." I feel this is a barrier in your understanding of the concept of reincarnation.

Heavy reading alert.
The Concealed Art of the Soul: Theories of Self and Practices of Truth in Indian Ethics and Epistemology

One section is particularly noteworthy:-
is curious to see … how the Buddhist denial of self and the Upaniṣadic universalization of self partake in a common diagnosis of the origins of suffering, the roots of which in both cases are seen to lie with the erroneous idea that minds have real boundaries."

 

[Spice]

So souls (things of heaven) and bodies containing brains with a capacity to have memories (things of the world) are separate and do not mix? Then reincarnation is debunked, why didn't you say so from the start?

Reincarnation is not debunked. The soul returns to another body/mind combination to learn and grow. That's the real you. And your soul, the real you, guides your mind through your conscious. I would even venture to guess that the soul is what sends a rush of adrenaline in an emergency. You don't "think" that strength/speed etc. into being.

 

[danieldemol]

The pruning eliminates the memories from explicit conscious access. They remain in the alay vijnana.
ālaya-vijñāna.

That appears to me to be pure religion and not evidence based. What I believe we would expect to see from a soul able to generate explicit memories via conciousness is that it would continue to do so.

 

[danieldemol]

In addition to what @sayak83 said, it may also be helpful to move away from the idea of the Abrahamic concept of a "soul." I feel this is a barrier in your understanding of the concept of reincarnation.

Perhaps, but the psychologist did not provide a model of what the non-Abrahamic soul concept is (assuming there is only one such non Abrahamic soul concept). So due to his failure to provide a model the Abrahamic indoctrinated mindset is left to fill in the gaps in my view.

 

[danieldemol]

Reincarnation is not debunked. The soul returns to another body/mind combination to learn and grow.

so the heavenly and the worldly do mix, you dont get to have your cake and eat it in my view.

That's the real you. And your soul, the real you, guides your mind through your conscious. I would even venture to guess that the soul is what sends a rush of adrenaline in an emergency. You don't "think" that strength/speed etc. into being.

It comes from the adrenal glands, not the soul,

"Your adrenal glands make the hormone adrenaline and send it into your bloodstream. Adrenaline, a hormone your adrenal glands produce, has a purpose. It helps you face dangerous situations by causing temporary changes in your body. Your heartbeats and breathing get faster as part of the “fight or flight” response."
Source: Adrenaline: Where the hormone is located & what it does

 

[sayak83]

That appears to me to be pure religion and not evidence based. What I believe we would expect to see from a soul able to generate explicit memories via conciousness is that it would continue to do so.

Thats Your unevidenced theoretical musing.

 

[danieldemol]

Thats Your unevidenced theoretical musing.

That's you shifting the burden of proof, if it has evidence its on you to share the evidence, otherwise it is dismissed as being unevidenced.

 

[YoursTrue]

The religious teachings may provide the philosophy and thought process for moral conduct and behavior.

The Nazis were driven by philosophies of nihilism and Darwinism to give substance and justification to their ideologies related to violence and cruelty.

“If we present a man with a concept of man which is not true, we may well corrupt him. When we present man as an automaton of reflexes, as a mind-machine, as a bundle of instincts, as a pawn of drives and reactions, as a mere product of instinct, heredity and environment, we feed the nihilism to which modern man is, in any case, prone.

I became acquainted with the last stage of that corruption in my second concentration camp, Auschwitz. The gas chambers of Auschwitz were the ultimate consequence of the theory that man is nothing but the product of heredity and environment; or as the Nazi liked to say, ‘of Blood and Soil.’ I am absolutely convinced that the gas chambers of Auschwitz, Treblinka, and Maidanek were ultimately prepared not in some Ministry or other in Berlin, but rather at the desks and lecture halls of nihilistic scientists and philosophers.”- Viktor Frankl



You may be a great man, but it is not reasonable to expect others to be the same as well.

There are many educated serial criminals who were capable of coherent reasoning but still went ahead with their crimes due to lack of emotional self-regulation.

I read Viktor Frankl when I was younger, thank you for mentioning him now, kind of was out of my memory but I remember him now, although not much of his writing do I remember. I recall he was a Holocaust survivor. Yes, I believe and that is what I was getting at when I asked others about their thoughts about race -- that eugenics including those of the Nazis were based on making what they thought were genetically 'pure' humans. Which, of course, leads to other questions, but I leave that open now. Thanks for your post.

 

[danieldemol]

“If we present a man with a concept of man which is not true, we may well corrupt him. When we present man as an automaton of reflexes, as a mind-machine, as a bundle of instincts, as a pawn of drives and reactions, as a mere product of instinct, heredity and environment, we feed the nihilism to which modern man is, in any case, prone.

Some questions;
Starting with the definition of nihilism;
'the rejection of all religious and moral principles, in the belief that life is meaningless.
"they condemned the show for its cynicism and nihilism"'
Source: define nihilism - Google Search

So question 1
Why would man being an automaton make his life meaningless?

Question 2,
What evidence does Mr Frankl provide that humans are not automatons? He claims it is not true that we are the products of nurture and nature (paraphrasing) so why is there evidence that we are so heavily effected by nurture and nature?

 

[sayak83]

That's you shifting the burden of proof, if it has evidence its on you to share the evidence, otherwise it is dismissed as being unevidenced.

I have provided evidence of genuine past life memories. I have shown that traditional rebirth theories adequately explain the current evidence so far as it is . So my task is done.
It is now upto the scientists to get further evidence of various kinds to identify which specific rebirth theory is correct and which is not.

 

[danieldemol]

I have provided evidence of genuine past life memories.

It is a loaded term to call them "past life" memories, they could be "other life" memories in my view.

I have shown that traditional rebirth theories adequately explain the current evidence so far as it is .

The psychologist did not even present a model of what traditional rebirth theories are. As for you explaining what they are or how they adequately explain the current evidence post# please?

So my task is done.

Not in my view it hasn't, you claim it is in the nature of a soul to re-generate concious memories after the complete neural pathway pruning of death, but that without any explanation it would not act in accordance with its nature after a mere partial neural pathway pruning.

It is now upto the scientists to get further evidence of various kinds to identify which specific rebirth theory is correct and which is not.

Or whether the ESP idea or the contamination idea is correct in my view.

 

[sayak83]

It is a loaded term to call them "past life" memories, they could be "other life" memories in my view.

The psychologist did not even present a model of what traditional rebirth theories are. As for you explaining what they are or how they adequately explain the current evidence post# please?

Not in my view it hasn't, you claim it is in the nature of a soul to re-generate concious memories after the complete neural pathway pruning of death, but that without any explanation it would not act in accordance with its nature after a mere partial neural pathway pruning.

Or whether the ESP idea or the contamination idea is correct in my view.

You remember some strong dreams for a bit of time and then you forget don't you? The processes involved here is similar.
Well they are past lives (lives that ended in the past), and children strongly identify them as their own memories. Something that your alternatives do not account for. But again, scientists should explore alternative theories. Certainly. I am going by the current conclusions.

 

[danieldemol]

You remember some strong dreams for a bit of time and then you forget don't you? The processes involved here is similar.

Dreams are a short term phenomena, is your soul as temporary and short-lived as a dream?

 

[sayak83]

Dreams are a short term phenomena, is your soul as temporary and short-lived as a dream?

I am talking about memory formation and forgetting processes that happen on a regular basis from past distinct consciousness states. Memories from one conscious state viz the dream state bleed into another conscious state viz the waking state temporarily before submergent back out of concious recall. That is what is happening (in my view) regarding past life memories of these children.
I have no idea what you mean by a soul. I at least have never used it anywhere. You are creating your own theories and asking me to explain it to you?

 

[ajay0]

Or it may not. The question is not if it "may". The question is if it is needed.

The nature of the raw mind is to tend to the negative, as per eastern religious philosophy. Hence training of the mind is emphasized to overcome these defects and ensure the mind becomes an asset instead of a liability.

“A disciplined mind brings happiness.” ~ Buddha (Dhammapada, verse 35)


More than those who hate you, more than all your enemies, an untrained mind does greater harm. More than your mother, more than your father, more than all your family, a well-trained mind does greater good. ~ Buddha (Dhammapada, verse 38,43)


Hard it is to train the mind, which goes where it likes and does what it wants. But a trained mind brings happiness. ~ Buddha (Dhammapada, verse 35)

Treasury of Truth (Dhammapada) Chapter 3, Mind

So? Jihadi's are driven by islamic ideologies.

Even buddhism isn't free of religious violence, as I'm sure you know.


If anything, these examples show that "religious philosophy" are just as flawed as any other ideologies when it comes to being used as a basis for morality and moral teaching.

The greatest Jihad is the Jihad against one's own self. ~ Muhammad

Religion become a liability when identities are created out of it with emotional attachment, instead of merely a functional identity. You identity with anything related to nationality, religion, creed, sexuality, and so on with emotional contours, and you develop cravings and aversions with respect to that identity and further entangle yourself in them.

Both Christ and Buddha had emphasized nonviolence , but their disciples overlooked them and took to violence. It is their own raw human nature , which Buddha had warned against, that hijacked the religious process.

I'm not a "great man" by any means.

I am aware of that.

I just actively try not to be blinded by ideology.

You can be immune to such conditioning only if you have self-knowledge. If you do not know who you are, you will take up any external identity to cover up the sense of vacuum and superficiality within, and would even be willing to die for it.

Yeah, we call such people psychopaths / sociopaths.

There is something diagnosably wrong with them. Such people are not the standard.

There are case studies in religious history of criminals and serial killers like Ratnakara and Angulimala being reformed by the sages Narada and Buddha.

Many people in the present have also creditted meditation with getting rid of their anxieties and calming the mind.

 

[danieldemol]

I am talking about memory formation and forgetting processes that happen on a regular basis from past distinct consciousness states. Memories from one conscious state viz the dream state bleed into another conscious state viz the waking state temporarily before submergent back out of concious recall. That is what is happening (in my view) regarding past life memories of these children.
I have no idea what you mean by a soul. I at least have never used it anywhere. You are creating your own theories and asking me to explain it to you?

So you are proposing something subtly different to Ian Stephenson, at 4:59 the psychologist says Ian Stephenson coined the term Psychophore to describe the vehicle to carry memories and emotions which was to distinguish it from alternative religious terms with associated alternative baggage such as the soul or spirit.

My question probably crossed the views of Ian Stevenson with @Spice assertion that there is a soul which travels from body to body, but to tailor it to the video I would simply ask is the psychophore as temporary in lifespan as a dream?

I have not asked concerning your personal views because I have no idea of what they are and how well they fit in with any peer reviewed evidence, and I doubt you have submitted your personal views for scientific peer review.

 

[sayak83]

So you are proposing something subtly different to Ian Stephenson, at 4:59 the psychologist says Ian Stephenson coined the term Psychophore to describe the vehicle to carry memories and emotions which was to distinguish it from alternative religious terms with associated alternative baggage such as the soul or spirit.

My question probably crossed the views of Ian Stevenson with @Spice assertion that there is a soul which travels from body to body, but to tailor it to the video I would simply ask is the psychophore as temporary in lifespan as a dream?

I have not asked concerning your personal views because I have no idea of what they are and how well they fit in with any peer reviewed evidence, and I doubt you have submitted your personal views for scientific peer review.

I am not really interested in the theories propounded by the psychologist groups or any specific religious views per se. My thrust in this discussion was to show a body of scientific evidence that shows the genuine occurrence of past life memories. What final theory can best explain such a happening is not something that can currently be specified. It's unlikely to be materially based transfer. But the evidence cannot conclusively rule out or rule in any specific theory at this point.

 

[Muffled]

confirmation bias works all ways for everyone:

I see it with evolution. Those who believe in it are biased towards believing the evidence points to it. When I first met God I believed in Him but I was not sure He would answer me but I was determined that He must.

 

[danieldemol]

It's unlikely to be materially based transfer. But the evidence cannot conclusively rule out or rule in any specific theory at this point.

Then they are not "theories" in any scientific sense of the word, they are at best hypothesis and at worst only ideas in my view.

 

[Vinayaka]

That appears to me to be pure religion and not evidence based. What I believe we would expect to see from a soul able to generate explicit memories via conciousness is that it would continue to do so.

Would there be a point to it though? Teachers of that magnitude need a purpose before they start spouting off. (In my opinion)