Challenge: I'm willing to convert if.......

[danieldemol]

Would there be a point to it though? Teachers of that magnitude need a purpose before they start spouting off. (In my opinion)

I'm assuming you mean a point to generating memories?
What purpose does it serve to tell us we had a horrible death? If it serves a purpose to tell us that why let us forget?

 

[sayak83]

Then they are not "theories" in any scientific sense of the word, they are at best hypothesis and at worst only ideas in my view.

Yes. Hypothesis.

 

[sayak83]

I'm assuming you mean a point to generating memories?
What purpose does it serve to tell us we had a horrible death? If it serves a purpose to tell us that why let us forget?

In any new field of study there is usually a progression from establishing the phenomena through careful observations and then start to test various theories that could make sense of the observation. In case of Past Life studies, we are, scientifically, at the first stage.

 

[ajay0]

Some questions;
Starting with the definition of nihilism;
'the rejection of all religious and moral principles, in the belief that life is meaningless.
"they condemned the show for its cynicism and nihilism"'
Source: define nihilism - Google Search

So question 1
Why would man being an automaton make his life meaningless?

If you know the habits of a lab rat through extensive research , you will be able to predict its behavior, habits and movements from birth to death.

Same would go for a human being . He or she would be a mere biological automaton whose behavior and reactions are entirely predictable and can even be manipulated under certain causes and conditions. Scientific materialism establishes the human being as a biological automaton that can be psychologically conditioned, and nihilism establishes that the moral values that a human being guides himself with are mere mental abstractions with no relevance of its own.

Frlom this perspective, this would obviously mean that human life is meaningless as one is obviously clinging and grasping vainly at abstractions.

This would also mean that the human being can be conditioned or programmed by social stimuli or government/religious/ideological propaganda to act in a way that befits its master manipulators. The Nazis felt that they knew what was best for human beings based on their ideas of scientific materialism and nihilism.

Question 2,
What evidence does Mr Frankl provide that humans are not automatons? He claims it is not true that we are the products of nurture and nature (paraphrasing) so why is there evidence that we are so heavily effected by nurture and nature?

The Nazis forced him into concentration camps with the objective of psychological degradation and physical annihilation. Viktor Frankl, inspite of surrounding adversities and perversities, was able to detach from his surroundings and keep his inner state calm and positive.

He realised that his own consciousness, mental state and attitude were the only controllables he had left, and he ensured it was optimal and right at all times. This probably enhanced his survival potential through overcoming depression, despair and negativity, and after his rescue from the camp was able to report his experiences and insights to the world.

Eastern philosophy also states that the state of consciousness in a person is variable, and different states of consciousness would produce different responses in a human being. Lower states of consciousness results in suffering and negativity while higher states of consciousness leads to positivity, joy and bliss.

Virtuous conduct and values are considered to be potent in creating higher states of consciousness, leading to Buddhahood or enlightenment.

Rajini Menon is a modern enlightened sage who had attained enlightenment through adherence to virtuous conduct .

I had elaborated on these themes in these threads of mine...

Female enlightened master Rajini Menon on attaining enlightenment by adhering to virtuous conduct...

An insightful article on female enlightened master Rajini Menon attaining enlightenment just through adhering to virtuous conduct. lifepositive If you do right, irrespective of what the other does, it will slow down the mind. - Rajini Menon Interestingly, a similar teaching of Swami...

www.religiousforums.com

Swami Satchidananda on virtuous conduct being synonymous with meditation...

Swami Satchidananda, disciple of Ramana Maharshi and Swami Sivananda, and the founder of Integral Yoga, stated thus.... “When even one virtue becomes our nature, the mind becomes clean and tranquil. Then there is no need to practice meditation; we will automatically be meditating always.” -...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[danieldemol]

If you know the habits of a lab rat through extensive research , you will be able to predict its behavior, habits and movements from birth to death.

Same would go for a human being . He or she would be a mere biological automaton whose behavior and reactions are entirely predictable and can even be manipulated under certain causes and conditions. Scientific materialism establishes the human being as a biological automaton that can be psychologically conditioned, and nihilism establishes that the moral values that a human being guides himself with are mere mental abstractions with no relevance of its own.

Frlom this perspective, this would obviously mean that human life is meaningless as one is obviously clinging and grasping vainly at abstractions.

It sounds as though you are stating from the perspective of a nihilist materialist this would mean life is obviously meaningless, but my question was different, my question was why would being an automaton make life meaningless?

In other words why does believing people are automatons necessarily lead to nihilism?

I believe humans are automatons and I find my life to be plenty meaningful through self generated meaning. Nor do I find morals to be meaningless just because they are abstract products of the mind.

In short I believe Frankl is demonstrably wrong to slur people with the charge of feeding nihilism for believing we are automatons and I think you would do well not to repeat his ignorance.

 

[ajay0]

It sounds as though you are stating from the perspective of a nihilist materialist this would mean life is obviously meaningless, but my question was different, my question was why would being an automaton make life meaningless?

An automaton is a machine or a robot without a soul. It is entirely predictable and can be conditioned/programmed to do whatever you want it to do.

If it goes beyond the repair state, it can be sold for scrap like a bicycle or old car.

 

[RestlessSoul]

It sounds as though you are stating from the perspective of a nihilist materialist this would mean life is obviously meaningless, but my question was different, my question was why would being an automaton make life meaningless?

In other words why does believing people are automatons necessarily lead to nihilism?

I believe humans are automatons and I find my life to be plenty meaningful through self generated meaning. Nor do I find morals to be meaningless just because they are abstract products of the mind.

In short I believe Frankl is demonstrably wrong to slur people with the charge of feeding nihilism for believing we are automatons and I think you would do well not to repeat his ignorance.

How can an automaton, being without agency and without responsibility, self-generate anything at all, let alone meaning?

 

[danieldemol]

An automaton is a machine or a robot without a soul. It is entirely predictable and can be conditioned/programmed to do whatever you want it to do.

That is not completely accurate in my view. Suppose instead of a modern computer with a programmable "off" or "shutdown" switch you had one in which their was no switch and it was permanently physically wired to the power supply. You could not program it to turn off no matter how much you wanted to program it to do so, because it is not in the nature of such a machine to be programmed that way.

As I see it, the brain is similar in the sense that you can only condition it in accordance with its individual nature.

If it goes beyond the repair state, it can be sold for scrap like a bicycle or old car.

You mean like the way we allow people to donate their organs after death (ie beyond the repair state)?

Or would we have to allow those organs to be sold? I would suggest that we don't allow those organs to be sold because we don't want people endangering themselves and/or others by selling organs from living humans as that would go against compassion (part of the nature of most of us excluding pyschopaths). That is because unlike a non sentient creature that doesn't experience pain such as a car or bicycle humans do experience pain.

But all of this seems irrelevant to me to the issue of assigning meaning to life. I do it whilst believing humans are automatons and would encourage others to find their own meaning in life. In other words I'm not a spreader of nihilism or a nihilistic philosophy as I see it.

 

[danieldemol]

How can an automaton, being without agency and without responsibility, self-generate anything at all, let alone meaning?

It is your assumption that an automaton necessarily wouldn't have agency, not mine.

Responsibility is not needed to generate anything, this "self" generation i refer to is simply shorthand for a person generating meaning in accordance with their nature and in response to their environmental inputs.

A person receives their nature and environmental inputs so in that sense "self" generation is an illusion since the meaning they come up with (if any) would at least be largely dependant on pre-existing conditions as I see it.

 

[YoursTrue]

If you know the habits of a lab rat through extensive research , you will be able to predict its behavior, habits and movements from birth to death.

Same would go for a human being . He or she would be a mere biological automaton whose behavior and reactions are entirely predictable and can even be manipulated under certain causes and conditions. Scientific materialism establishes the human being as a biological automaton that can be psychologically conditioned, and nihilism establishes that the moral values that a human being guides himself with are mere mental abstractions with no relevance of its own.

Frlom this perspective, this would obviously mean that human life is meaningless as one is obviously clinging and grasping vainly at abstractions.

This would also mean that the human being can be conditioned or programmed by social stimuli or government/religious/ideological propaganda to act in a way that befits its master manipulators. The Nazis felt that they knew what was best for human beings based on their ideas of scientific materialism and nihilism.



The Nazis forced him into concentration camps with the objective of psychological degradation and physical annihilation. Viktor Frankl, inspite of surrounding adversities and perversities, was able to detach from his surroundings and keep his inner state calm and positive.

He realised that his own consciousness, mental state and attitude were the only controllables he had left, and he ensured it was optimal and right at all times. This probably enhanced his survival potential through overcoming depression, despair and negativity, and after his rescue from the camp was able to report his experiences and insights to the world.

Eastern philosophy also states that the state of consciousness in a person is variable, and different states of consciousness would produce different responses in a human being. Lower states of consciousness results in suffering and negativity while higher states of consciousness leads to positivity, joy and bliss.

Virtuous conduct and values are considered to be potent in creating higher states of consciousness, leading to Buddhahood or enlightenment.

Rajini Menon is a modern enlightened sage who had attained enlightenment through adherence to virtuous conduct .

I had elaborated on these themes in these threads of mine...

Female enlightened master Rajini Menon on attaining enlightenment by adhering to virtuous conduct...

An insightful article on female enlightened master Rajini Menon attaining enlightenment just through adhering to virtuous conduct. lifepositive If you do right, irrespective of what the other does, it will slow down the mind. - Rajini Menon Interestingly, a similar teaching of Swami...

www.religiousforums.com

Swami Satchidananda on virtuous conduct being synonymous with meditation...

Swami Satchidananda, disciple of Ramana Maharshi and Swami Sivananda, and the founder of Integral Yoga, stated thus.... “When even one virtue becomes our nature, the mind becomes clean and tranquil. Then there is no need to practice meditation; we will automatically be meditating always.” -...

www.religiousforums.com

I am glad I came to know God. I emerged from the shell of a human being doing my own thing to that of a servant of God, trying to do HIS will. I am glad to know Him, and know He forgives me for my past, even if I cannot forgive myself I know HE has forgiven me and plus, I look forward to the future where true forgiveness will take place.

 

[Madsaac]

I am glad I came to know God. I emerged from the shell of a human being doing my own thing to that of a servant of God, trying to do HIS will. I am glad to know Him, and know He forgives me for my past, even if I cannot forgive myself I know HE has forgiven me and plus, I look forward to the future where true forgiveness will take place.

I made this thread so I could come to know god by asking for evidence of a god or similar and not one shred of evidence has been presented.

So how does one come to know god? Is has to be a leap of faith?

 

[RestlessSoul]

I made this thread so I could come to know god by asking for evidence of a god or similar and not one shred of evidence has been presented.

So how does one come to know god? Is has to be a leap of faith?

Most people come to a knowledge of God through prayer and meditation.
You can easily test this for yourself. All you will need is honesty, open mindedness and willingness.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Most people come to a knowledge of God through prayer and meditation.
You can easily test this for yourself. All you will need is honesty, open mindedness and willingness.

All that means is a person convinces him or herself and that's pretty much it.

Prayer and meditation is not a conduit to any real entity other than the one conjured up in a person's fantasy and imagination and stays there in a person's mental realm.

 

[RestlessSoul]

All that means is a person convinces him or herself and that's pretty much it.

Prayer and meditation is not a conduit to any real entity other than the one conjured up in a person's fantasy and imagination and stays there in a person's mental realm.

You know what’s in your own heart and mind.

But don’t presume to describe what’s in the hearts and minds of all men and women, for this you cannot know.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You know what’s in your own heart and mind.

But don’t presume to describe what’s in the hearts and minds of all men and women, for this you cannot know.

That's fine how people think of themselves. Who am I to say otherwise?

However in the real waking world, things are undoubtedly different.

 

[Muffled]

All around me? Where? What?

No sure who's eyes you are using?

I believe creation is so orderly and not chaotic that only an intelligence could have made it so.

 

[Muffled]

Now if I could fly, that would be a miracle.

Have you seen or have evidence of someone doing something like this. Walk on water maybe?

No is the answer so..............

I have not personally witnessed a miracle but I have heard of modern events.

 

[Muffled]

As mentioned, I'm willing to convert if there is evidence of a miracle.

And according to religious people, there are many miracles, so I should be any easy convert, should I not?

I believe by their very nature miracles don't come with evidence, only eyewitness testimony which some people don't consider evidence.

 

[jimb]

I have not personally witnessed a miracle but I have heard of modern events.

I was healed of asthma in the hospital by Jesus Christ. The doctors were unable to break the spasm, but when a pastor asked Jesus to heal me, the spasm instantly broke and I immediately became a Christian. (I was a confirmed atheist right up to that moment.)

 

[jimb]

Now if I could fly, that would be a miracle.

Have you seen or have evidence of someone doing something like this. Walk on water maybe?

No is the answer so..............

Try getting on an airplane!