Challenge: Should the Koran be taken literally or NOT?

[stvdv]

I didn't answer the poll because it's not clear. There's many parables in the Quran
There's verses who were just for a specific time/event for exemple during a conflict.

Sometimes I meet Christians and also Muslims who tell me that they take their scripture very, very literal
(Some even say "from the start to the end" we believe it to be true and take it literal)
Hence I got the idea to do this simple poll with a simple question (I thought)

It is just binary logic thing. No more than that.

IF there is 1 verse not literal in the Koran
THEN it is True to say "The Koran can not be taken literal"

or to write it differently

IF there is 1 verse not literal in the Koran
THEN it is True to say "All 6000+ verses (from the Koran) can not be taken literal"

Because some are just "not literal" as you explained that there are many parables

I hope this clarifies it. I just meant it to be this simple.

 

[Pastek]

or to write it differently

IF there is 1 verse not literal in the Koran
THEN it is True to say "All 6000+ verses (from the Koran) can not be taken literal"

Because some are just "not literal" as you explained that there are many parables

I hope this clarifies it. I just meant it to be this simple.

Ok I think I understand what you mean.
But I still prefere not to answer because the way it's asked is too general

 

[Jim]

Koran: 5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.

1: Muslims believe the Koran is the word of God, so it's the "Ultimate Truth"
2: Muslims believe that when reading the Koran that God is talking to them
3: Koran 5:51 suggests Muslims are taught that Jews and Christians are NOT their friends
4: Koran 5:51 suggests the Koran is generalizing "All Christians and Jews are the same"
5: Koran 5:51 suggests the Koran is not allowing free will to a Muslim [And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them]

I as a Lover of Christ have I a friend who is a Muslim.
So the Koran is wrong to generalize and suggest that "Alle Christians and Jews are the same"
a): Hereby I have proven that the Koran should not be taken literally.
b): I and my Muslim friend are "friends and protector" of each other. For us verse 5:51 is "False"
c): I and my Muslim friend have friendship but keep our own religions. "False" again

Knowing this:
Should one still regard the Koran as the book of God?
Should one still regard the Koran as the word of God?
Should one still regard the Koran as "God talking to us"?

[If the Koran claims to be the "Ultimate Truth" should then not all verses be "True"]
[+verse 5:48 seems to complement verse 5:51 quite well]

IMHO

Note: @Sakeenah: Would have been nice if you asked Muslims to elaborate on verse 5:51

Note: @Sakeenah: Challenge in title not the best: My thought was it's a challenging idea. Not to challenge others, so seems oke [RF Rule1 "Don't quoting a member's post to challenge them"].

Note: @Lvcifer Invictvs: pointed out correctly "should be in Quranic Debates". But as this post is about 1 verse I highlighted about how Koran sees "Christians/Jews" I think it is correct here afterall. But probable the title is not so clear. Can't change that anymore. Hope this note clears the confusion.

Out of context. Context makes a difference.

 

[stvdv]

Ok I think I understand what you mean.

But I still prefere not to answer because the way it's asked is too general

If you understand then I don't understand why you still prefer not to answer, but of course that's your choice

I am very straightforward, trying not to give room for too much misinterpretation
That's why I like Koran verse 3:07, and I was curious why many Muslims try to avoid certain simple questions asked by non Muslims
And when asked difficult questions, quite a few times Muslims answered to me with "you are not qualified" or "you don't know the context"

If someone does not want to answer my simple questions (I just try to understand Islam and how Muslims think)
then I see no use to ask more difficult questions to them or even bother about understanding Islam

It feels to me that they do not take me serious, but again they are free to do so
They just give me a funny/strange and not so nice feeling about Islam and Muslims

Maybe Muslims are not aware of that or maybe they do it on purpose ...
I can understand they avoid to talk about it, because many non Muslims think negative about Islam
So maybe that is the reason. In this case I just had 7 Koran translations that had this verse translated wrong

I find it only right to criticize something if it is just plain wrong (this being the wrong translation). And Muslims should be happy if non Muslims correct translation errors (I would if they correct my mistakes). I even contacted an Islamic website telling them they better correct this, because it gives very negative vibes to non Muslims. But they also did not even bother to answer me (and I wrote it in a very positive way)

 

[stvdv]

Out of context. Context makes a difference.

No this was not out of context. This was just that I had 7 Korans which translated this verse wrong
Luckily after a long search I did find 2 Korans that translated this verse correctly

Totally within context. Just wrong translated. Translation makes all the difference

 

[Jim]

Totally within context. Just wrong translated. Translation makes all the difference

I insist. Totally out of context. I can’t be sure that you aren’t seeing it in its full context, but if you are, you certainly aren’t showing any signs of it.

Just my opinion.

 

[Pastek]

That's why I like Koran verse 3:07, and I was curious why many Muslims try to avoid certain simple questions asked by non Muslims
And when asked difficult questions, quite a few times Muslims answered to me with "you are not qualified" or "you don't know the context"

I don't know what to say about this because I'm not here that often those late times, but in this thread in particular we have answered to you in the previous posts.
Even non-muslims explain it when they have read the Quran so sometimes I don't even bother because they have it right.

I can understand they avoid to talk about it, because many non Muslims think negative about Islam
So maybe that is the reason. In this case I just had 7 Koran translations that had this verse translated wrong

We have already explained the translation about the arabic word concerning this specific verse. Maybe you should re-read our posts.
Arabic language is very rich so when there's a translation of course some will choose a word over an other one.
Doesn't mean it's necessarily incorrect.
If you isolate a verse of course you can have it wrong but just like with any other Book.
Muslims accept to answer to questions (if they have the knowledge).

 

[Wasp]

No this was not out of context. This was just that I had 7 Korans which translated this verse wrong
Luckily after a long search I did find 2 Korans that translated this verse correctly

Totally within context. Just wrong translated. Translation makes all the difference

What do you propose was the correct translation?

 

[stvdv]

I insist. Totally out of context. I can’t be sure that you aren’t seeing it in its full context, but if you are, you certainly aren’t showing any signs of it.

Just my opinion.

 

[stvdv]

What do you propose was the correct translation?

1) I believe the "hidden" message in this verse is "Only God is you true friend and protector" (my opinion)

2) The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran
a) At least here they say about Christians/Jews "Some of them". That's a good start to not say "Christians/Jews" meaning "All of them".
b) Here they talk about "awliyāu" as "allies", and not about "friends". Feels much better than "Don't take Christians/Jews as friends"
c) When they translate "awliyāu" as "protector", instead of "friends", also feels much better. "Protector" also can have the deeper meaning "Allah is your real protector"

*) Below are 10 different translations. Reading the different version I can feel a big difference. The word friend is not a friendly translation in this context. And to imply "All Christians/Jews" is also not friendly and true.

Spoiler: 10 different Koran Translations: verse 5:51

005:051 Section 8: Relations of Muslims with Enemies

005:051 Khan O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc. ), they are but Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong - doers and unjust).

005:051 Maulana O you who believe, take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends of each other. And whoever amongst you takes them for friends he is indeed one of them. Surely Allah guides not the unjust people.

005:051 Pickthal O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

005:051 Rashad O you who believe, do not take certain Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.

005:051 Sarwar Believers, do not consider the Jews and Christians as your intimate friends for they are only friends with each other. Who ever does so will be considered as one of them. God does not guide the unjust people.

005:051 Shakir O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, th en surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

005:051 Sherali O ye who believe ! take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends of each other. And whoso among you takes them for friends is indeed one of th em. Verily ALLAH guides not the unjust people.

005:051 Yusufali O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship ) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

005:051 Oxford You who believe, do not take the Jews and Christians as allies: “they are allies only to each other. Anyone who takes them as an ally becomes one of them— God does not guide such wrongdoers

005:051 Sahih International O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

 

[Jim]

Useful Sura you mentioned ... but I come to a different conclusion

The Koran (as a whole) should be taken literal ... ONLY if all verses are meant to be taken literal
Because not all verses are meant to be taken literal ("Quran Sura 3:7")
The Koran (as a whole) should NOT be taken literal ... would be the correct answer to the poll

I am very surprised that not 1 single Muslim could answer this simple question (I even kind of gave it away in the OP)
I am very happy that at least 14 of the 15 non-Muslims answered this simple question correctly

So it's safe to conclude IMHO that a Muslim should never again say to a non-Muslim
"Non Muslims should not talk about Koran, for they do not know Arabic or whatever excuse"

What you’re doing here looks sick to me.

How would you describe what you’re doing here? Was that the whole point of this thread? To incriminate Muslims?

 

[Jim]

Useful Sura you mentioned ... but I come to a different conclusion

The Koran (as a whole) should be taken literal ... ONLY if all verses are meant to be taken literal
Because not all verses are meant to be taken literal ("Quran Sura 3:7")
The Koran (as a whole) should NOT be taken literal ... would be the correct answer to the poll

I am very surprised that not 1 single Muslim could answer this simple question (I even kind of gave it away in the OP)
I am very happy that at least 14 of the 15 non-Muslims answered this simple question correctly

So it's safe to conclude IMHO that a Muslim should never again say to a non-Muslim
"Non Muslims should not talk about Koran, for they do not know Arabic or whatever excuse"

What you’re doing here looks sick and evil to me. I won’t even try to argue with your dishonest, treacherous abuse of logic. I’ll just say what I think about some issues you’ve raised. In my way of thinking, all the words of the Quran, as it is originally given to Muhammed, are the words of God, by definition. I think that understood in its full context, it does not prohibit friendships between Muslims and non-Muslims.

 

[Wasp]

1) I believe the "hidden" message in this verse is "Only God is you true friend and protector" (my opinion)

2) The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran
a) At least here they say about Christians/Jews "Some of them". That's a good start to not say "Christians/Jews" meaning "All of them".
b) Here they talk about "awliyāu" as "allies", and not about "friends". Feels much better than "Don't take Christians/Jews as friends"
c) When they translate "awliyāu" as "protector", instead of "friends", also feels much better. "Protector" also can have the deeper meaning "Allah is your real protector"

*) Below are 10 different translations. Reading the different version I can feel a big difference. The word friend is not a friendly translation in this context. And to imply "All Christians/Jews" is also not friendly and true.

You think you found a "hidden message" that no one else has discovered for 1400 years?

There is no perfect translation for the word in English. That's why the translations differ. What you are completely ignoring is context. The Muslims were told to not take the Jews and Christians as allies/protectors/friends for a reason. And the word friends isn't necessarily incorrect.

But which 2 are the correct ones according to you?

Comparing translations is okay if it helps, but it is not good to look for one that simply pleases you and choose it as the only correct one. You're supposed to be looking for the truth. And that is best found from the Arabic language and the context. Remember the translation is not a translation of the Qur'an, but a translation of the meaning of the Qur'an.

 

[Jim]

So it's safe to conclude IMHO that a Muslim should never again say to a non-Muslim "Non Muslims should not talk about Koran, for they do not know Arabic or whatever excuse"

I don’t think that it’s always wrong for non-Muslims to talk about the Quran, or to have opinions about what it says, no matter if they know Arabic or not, or for any other reason. I do think that it’s wrong to promote fallacious ways of thinking that are designed to alienate people from all Muslims everywhere, as your posts in this thread have done.

 

[stvdv]

You think you found a "hidden message" that no one else has discovered for 1400 years?

No I don't think that no one else found that. I called it "hidden message" because it's not the obvious thing you read out of this.

There is no perfect translation for the word in English. That's why the translations differ. What you are completely ignoring is context. The Muslims were told to not take the Jews and Christians as allies/protectors/friends for a reason. And the word friends isn't necessarily incorrect.

What would be the reason to say "do not take any Christian or Jew as a friend" (some translation use just the word "friend")? When they use the word allies or protectors feels completely different to me. Using the word "friend" here is not friendly. Using "some friends" makes it better (but none of the 10 translations I saw add the word "some"). Only the word for word translation.
Translating it as below gives me a very negative vibe, so I can not believe Allah meant it in this way:
Koran 5:51: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends: They are but friends to each other. And he among you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.

But which 2 are the correct ones according to you?

I don't know which one is correct; Allah only knows.
But "friend" feels wrong to me. "Some ... friends" I can agree on.
And "Allies" feels already better. And "protector" feels even more good to me. "Some ... protectors" feels maybe the best.

Comparing translations is okay if it helps, but it is not good to look for one that simply pleases you and choose it as the only correct one. You're supposed to be looking for the truth. And that is best found from the Arabic language and the context. Remember the translation is not a translation of the Qur'an, but a translation of the meaning of the Qur'an.

Thanks, that is a good point to remember. And I am looking for the truth, not just what pleases me. But if something is written in a way that hurts many people (like telling "all Christians and Jews can not be a good friend to a Muslim; only to each other") then I tell that this feels not good (and even wrong) to me. Of course if it's true that "All Christians and Jews are unable to be a good friend to a Muslim" then the word "friend" would be okay. But this I can not believe to be true, can you? I know a few very nice Muslims who totally disagree with "friend" translation.

I think that Jesus was also a Jew. So translating this verse with "friend" would make Jesus not being able to be a good friend to a Muslim. I just can not believe that to be true. Hence I strongly believe that the word "friend" in this verse is totally inappropriate. Translating it with "friend" would make Allah look bad IMO. And it also would make Muslims look bad. And my Master is also a Muslim, so I don't like that.

 

[stvdv]

I don't know what to say about this because I'm not here that often those late times, but in this thread in particular we have answered to you in the previous posts.
Even non-muslims explain it when they have read the Quran so sometimes I don't even bother because they have it right.

Yes that is true, quite a few Muslims helped me out on this verse and I am grateful for that. And one even advised me 2 very nice Koran's using a much better translation. I only hope that they change the other translations with "friend" also, because it feels so inappropriate and so many people use this particular verse to bash Islam. If they just use the word "allies" or "protectors" then it's much harder to bash this verse. And in a way I kind of like this verse.

That is why I started this thread; to point out how inappropriate this "friend" translation is. I even wrote a mail to a website who used the word "friend" explaining to them it is creating hate and it's better to use "allies" or "protectors". My Master was also a Muslim and He always told us that Islam means "Peace". That is why "friend" translation is unacceptable to me in this verse. This creates hate (proven by anti Muslims using this verse with "friend" translation in it).

We have already explained the translation about the arabic word concerning this specific verse. Maybe you should re-read our posts.
Arabic language is very rich so when there's a translation of course some will choose a word over an other one.
Doesn't mean it's necessarily incorrect.
If you isolate a verse of course you can have it wrong but just like with any other Book.
Muslims accept to answer to questions (if they have the knowledge).

Thank you. I know that Arabic language is very rich. I just can't understand someone would chose the word "friend" over "ally" or "protector". And forget to add the word "some" when describing "Christians and Jews". Because it makes "all Christians and Jews" look very bad.

And just consider this. Jesus was a Jew (I think). So to claim/translate "All Christians and Jews can't be friends of Muslims" seems just not appropriate to me.

But I will leave it at that. This is just how I feel about it, and others feel different about it. Best is to agree to disagree on things we can't agree on I think. I like what Koran 5:48 says about that.

 

[Wasp]

No I don't think that no one else found that. I called it "hidden message" because it's not the obvious thing you read out of this.

Which scholar supports this interpretation of yours?

What would be the reason to say "do not take any Christian or Jew as a friend" (some translation use just the word "friend")?

Because there have been times when Muslims were discouraged from making friends with the enemy.

When they use the word allies or protectors feels completely different to me.

To you, and you expect the Qur'an to transform into something that best suits you like they do with the bible? Make interpretations most convenient, ignore logic.

Using the word "friend" here is not friendly.

It's aim isn't to be friendly.

Using "some friends" makes it better (but none of the 10 translations I saw add the word "some"). Only the word for word translation.

The following is the literal translation. The word some comes later in the verse. "Some of them are allies to others", some of them are allies to your enemies. They tried to gain the friendship of Muslims in order to use their friendship for their advantage in war.
5:51 "O you who believe! (Do) not take the Jews and the Christians (as) allies. Some of them (are) allies (to) others. And whoever takes them as allies among you, then indeed, he (is) of them. Indeed, Allah (does) not guide the wrongdoing people."

Translating it as below gives me a very negative vibe, so I can not believe Allah meant it in this way:

You don't believe in Allah.

I think that Jesus was also a Jew. So translating this verse with "friend" would make Jesus not being able to be a good friend to a Muslim. I just can not believe that to be true. Hence I strongly believe that the word "friend" in this verse is totally inappropriate. Translating it with "friend" would make Allah look bad IMO. And it also would make Muslims look bad. And my Master is also a Muslim, so I don't like that.

You have to look at the context.

60:8 "Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers."

60:9 "Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them - (All) such are wrong-doers."

 

[stvdv]

Which scholar supports this interpretation of yours?

I have not asked any scholar, but knowing my Master a little, I would be suprised if He does not support my interpretation

Because there have been times when Muslims were discouraged from making friends with the enemy.

Exactly. Hence without the word "Some" this verse feels totally inappropriate as I already explained

To you, and you expect the Qur'an to transform into something that best suits you like they do with the bible? Make interpretations most convenient, ignore logic.

I only said that "friend" is an inappropriate translation. Fully logical.

It's aim isn't to be friendly.

Is it's aim to be "unfriendly"?

The following is the literal translation. The word some comes later in the verse. "Some of them are allies to others", some of them are allies to your enemies. They tried to gain the friendship of Muslims in order to use their friendship for their advantage in war.
5:51 "O you who believe! (Do) not take the Jews and the Christians (as) allies. Some of them (are) allies (to) others. And whoever takes them as allies among you, then indeed, he (is) of them. Indeed, Allah (does) not guide the wrongdoing people."

You don't hear me object to this translation.

You don't believe in Allah.

Your opinion!!! Koran instructs me to leave those things for Allah to decide

You have to look at the context.

60:8 "Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers."

60:9 "Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them - (All) such are wrong-doers."

I would not call verse 60:8/9 to be the context for verse 5:51, would you?
But thanks for sharing these verses, I do like them. (But I did read your words .. you don't care whether I like it or not)

 

[Wasp]

I have not asked any scholar, but knowing my Master a little, I would be suprised if He does not support my interpretation

Irrelevant. Look at the interpretations of scholars.

Exactly. Hence without the word "Some" this verse feels totally inappropriate as I already explained

You don't know which ones are your enemies. It is then safest to avoid close relations with all of them.

I only said that "friend" is an inappropriate translation. Fully logical.

How could you use logic for it when you don't understand the context, understand Arabic or, apparently, even care what the scholars (who have spent a life time studying that book) have to say about it?

Your opinion!!! Koran instructs me to leave those things for Allah to decide

Are you saying you believe in the Qur'an now? It sounds like you don't yet at times you speak as if you did. It's actually a kind of an insult to say "the Qur'an tells me to..." if you don't obey the Qur'an.

I would not call verse 60:8/9 to be the context for verse 5:51, would you?

Didn't say it was. The verses were unrelated to the preceding sentence. However, they provide clear evidence without any far-stretched interpretations that the interpretation of "Muslims can't be friends with Christians and Jews" is false.

But thanks for sharing these verses, I do like them. (But I did read your words .. you don't care whether I like it or not)

I don't. I share them to help you understand.

 

[stvdv]

Irrelevant. Look at the interpretations of scholars.

My Master knows far more than the average scholar. So for sure it's relevant what He taught me. I need not look at other interpretations on this.

You don't know which ones are your enemies. It is then safest to avoid close relations with all of them.

Of course it's safest to avoid all close relations with all of them. If the translations had used those words it would be fine. It did not. The way it was written in 7 out of 10 translations was just not right. But you seem to disagree. So I agree to disagree on this one

How could you use logic for it when you don't understand the context, understand Arabic or, apparently, even care what the scholars (who have spent a life time studying that book) have to say about it?

Arabic is not the only language, Koran is not the only Scripture. Some things can be known without knowing those. Called "language of the heart"

Are you saying you believe in the Qur'an now? It sounds like you don't yet at times you speak as if you did. It's actually a kind of an insult to say "the Qur'an tells me to..." if you don't obey the Qur'an.

Again that is your opinion. I agree to disagree on this one also.

You have to look at the context.
60:8 "Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers."
60:9 "Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them - (All) such are wrong-doers."

I would not call verse 60:8/9 to be the context for verse 5:51, would you?

Didn't say it was. The verses were unrelated to the preceding sentence. However, they provide clear evidence without any far-stretched interpretations that the interpretation of "Muslims can't be friends with Christians and Jews" is false.

First you tell me to look at the context. Then when I look at the context of your quote (literally 1 line above) you tell me "don't look at my context"
Would have been more appropriate to say "You don't have to look at the context in this case, the below verses make this abundantly clear"

I share them to help you understand.

I did understand already that what some translations implied in verse 5:51 "Muslims can't be friends with Christians and Jews" is false