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Challenge: Should the Koran be taken literally or NOT?

Should the Koran be taken literally or NOT?


  • Total voters
    17

Jedster

Flying through space
Oh please..this is nonsense

@Sakeenah
Indeed it is nonsense.

@stvdv Re:OP
My own opinion is that members of religions who really believe that their scripture(s) are revealed, i.e from God, then said believers should read the book(s) for themselves and live according their own understanding, not that of theologians/commentators.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Such as ..

In the Q'uran it's written that Jews and Christians are infidel's and not to be taken as friends, Not only Jews and Christians are infidel's, But also anyone who does accept Islam and the Q'uran are infidel's.
And are to be killed.

As to how many times have you seen Atheists or homosexuals marching for rights in Islam, let's say in Iran ?
Why is that, maybe because they would be killed.
Whether Atheists or homosexuals knows this or not, their chances are better with Christians, Than with Muslims.

With Christians, there is no where in the New Testament Scriptures, That tells Christians to go killing people, just because they don't agree with the Christian faith.
As people are, who do not go along with the Muslims Islam faith. Are considered infidel's.

I don't mean to offend anyone, But thats the difference between Christians and Muslims.
How are you to trust Muslims, When their Q'uran promotes lying and deceiving the infidel's to gain the upper hand, to conquer the infidel's.
 

Aamer

Truth Seeker
My friend... You are misquoting the Quran and then quoting out of context. What translation are you using? Something funded by the Saudi gov't? If you are truly interested in the truth then read the whole chapter and don't quote one verse without acknowledging what is said before and after it. The verse is not talking about all Christians and Jews but CERTAIN Christians and Jews who mock and ridicule the Quran. I'd advise you to read the entire chapter but here's a few verses to dismiss your false claims...

[5:51] O you who believe, do not take CERTAIN Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.

[5:57] O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of previous scripture who MOCK AND RIDICULE your religion, nor shall you befriend the disbelievers. You shall reverence GOD, if you are really believers.

[5:58] When you call to the Contact Prayers (Salat), they MOCK AND RIDICULE it. This is because they are people who do not understand.

[5:65] If only the people of the scripture believe and lead a righteous life, we will then remit their sins, and admit them into gardens of bliss.

[5:66] If only they would uphold the Torah and the Gospel, and what is sent down to them herein from their Lord, they would be showered with blessings from above them and from beneath their feet. Some of them are righteous, but many of them are evildoers.

The overall message here is that there are some amongst the Christians and Jews who follow their scripture and are righteous. But most follow teachings not condoned by the Almighty (like Christmas, Easter, the Cross, the Star of David, the Satanic Talmud, etc). So if they're mocking you... Don't hang out with them and don't make them your homies. Unfortunately, this fell on deaf ears to the "Muslims" who came after the Quran. As they too ignored their scripture and brought in man made Hadith books, started bowing to the black cube of Saturn in Mecca and invented many false rules that the Quran does not command (like head cover for women, violence against non Muslims, idolizing Muhammad and 1000+ other things).

Peace and may the Almighty bless us all.

Aamer.
 
Last edited:

Aamer

Truth Seeker
In the Q'uran it's written that Jews and Christians are infidel's and not to be taken as friends, Not only Jews and Christians are infidel's, But also anyone who does accept Islam and the Q'uran are infidel's.
And are to be killed.

Another false claim and misconception about the Quran. There is no command in the Quran anywhere to kill non-Muslims indiscriminately. In fact, this is forbidden. You can only kill if it's self defense, if they are kicking you out of your homes or if they are preventing you from worshipping your Creator. Everybody loves to quote the "Kill them where you find them" verse... But they conveniently ignore the verse that comes immediately after it...

[4:89] They wish that you disbelieve as they have disbelieved, then you become equal. Do not consider them friends, unless they mobilize along with you in the cause of GOD. If they turn against you, you shall fight them, and you may KILL THEM WHERE YOU ENCOUNTER THEM them in war. You shall not accept them as friends, or allies.

[4:90] EXEMPTED ARE THOSE who join people with whom you have signed a peace treaty, and those who come to you WISHING NOT TO FIGHT YOU, nor fight their relatives. Had GOD willed, He could have permitted them to fight against you. Therefore, IF THEY LEAVE YOU ALONE, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD GIVES YOU NO EXCUSE TO FIGHT THEM.

Quran only allows violence in Self Defense. Sorry to disappoint you... But that's the truth of it. If that's not enough... Here's more light on the Quran's attitude towards Non Muslims...

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

I don't defend Muslims. Most of them have never read the Quran. I am not a member of their organized religion which has forgotten their scripture. I only defend the word of the Most High.

Peace and may the Almighty bless us all.

Aamer.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
brought in man made Hadith books, started bowing to the black cube of Saturn in Mecca and invented many false rules that the Quran does not command (like head cover for women, violence against non Muslims, idolizing Muhammad and 1000+ other things).

Thank you my friend. You are correct. I downloaded 9 different versions of the Koran from the internet [wanted to make sure I got the correct translation], and 7 of them unfortunately had verse 5:51 wrongly translated. Luckily @Sakeenah + @sayak83 helped me out with this verse, so I came to quite a good understanding now of this verse.
[Here I explained and corrected the translation of verse 5:51: Challenge: Should the Koran be taken literally or NOT?]

Too bad, I was not able to correct this in the original post [only 24h to edit]
On the other hand you provided some extra helpful verses and your view on "Hadith" books. Glad to hear that from a Muslim. Thanks a lot.

This post gave me at least a better understanding. And I did view a few youtubes in which also was very clearly explained that verse 5:51 was all about "Protectors", not about "Friends". And with "protector" the verse is very different, because Allah should be our protector. Although I am not a Muslim myself, I find many verses in the Koran very good and also practical. Learning a lot from the Koran.

Translating the verse 5:51 in the "Word of God" so badly, should be corrected as soon as possible. Wrong translations and interpretations is a big cause of all the misunderstanding from the Koran. This verse had nothing to do with my little knowledge. I just had 7 wrong translations. Not my mistake. I am surprised that the Muslim scholars missed this big mistake. We english speaking can't help if Islamic scholars mess up the translation so badly. So I pray they correct this verse as soon as possible. Just 1 word makes a world of difference, that is proof how important it is to have translations correct.

I feel sorry that I offended you with the wrong translation. It must be tough nowadays with so many false claims, and so many negative talk on internet and news for you Muslims. Maybe good that you tell the big Imaam that they should correct verse 5:51 translation. If I come across more mistakes in translations I will put it in another post.

I myself alread send an email to 1 major website, telling them of this BIG translation error.
If all you Muslims do the same, then this misunderstanding can be solved very quick.

Namastee
 
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Pastek

Sunni muslim
In the Q'uran it's written that Jews and Christians are infidel's and not to be taken as friends, Not only Jews and Christians are infidel's, But also anyone who does accept Islam and the Q'uran are infidel's.
And are to be killed.

So they are to be killed but were allowed to live under all the Caliphates and are still living in muslim countries until now.

Koran: 5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.

3: Koran 5:51 suggests Muslims are taught that Jews and Christians are NOT their friends
4: Koran 5:51 suggests the Koran is generalizing "All Christians and Jews are the same"
5: Koran 5:51 suggests the Koran is not allowing free will to a Muslim [And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them]

As said before the word used is "awliya" [allies] which is the plural of waly [ally]
It can be translated as protector too.

No the Quran doesn't generalize :

3.113
They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer].

3.114
They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds. And those are among the righteous.

3.115
And whatever good they do - never will it be removed from them. And Allah is Knowing of the righteous.


To have a better understanding of the Quran and avoid errors of interpretation it's better to no isolate a verse and to have some information about the context.

For exemple in surah 9 it says :


9.97
The bedouins are stronger in disbelief and hypocrisy and more likely not to know the limits of what [laws] Allah has revealed to His Messenger. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.


It's not a generalization of all the arab bedouins until nowadays but during a precise time.

9.98
And among the bedouins are some who consider what they spend as a loss and await for you turns of misfortune. Upon them will be a misfortune of evil. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.


9.99
But among the bedouins are some who believe in Allah and the Last Day and consider what they spend as means of nearness to Allah and of [obtaining] invocations of the Messenger. Unquestionably, it is a means of nearness for them. Allah will admit them to His mercy. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
To have a better understanding of the Quran and avoid errors of interpretation

Thanks for the extra explanation

BUT:
In this case it had nothing to do with me. Almost all english translations are wrong, my interpretation was good. They use the word "friend" and not "protector". I believe God alone is my protector. Then the verse feels correct. Using "friend" the verse feels very bad [as I explained in the previous reply above yours]. So it is about time that the Muslim community correct these mistakes. I have already send 1 mail. That's how we get these misunderstandings out of the world.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
[So I send a email to this site, to correct the BIG mistake]
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
So they are to be killed but were allowed to live under all the Caliphates and are still living in muslim countries until now.



As said before the word used is "awliya" [allies] which is the plural of waly [ally]
It can be translated as protector too.

No the Quran doesn't generalize :

3.113
They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer].

3.114
They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds. And those are among the righteous.

3.115
And whatever good they do - never will it be removed from them. And Allah is Knowing of the righteous.


To have a better understanding of the Quran and avoid errors of interpretation it's better to no isolate a verse and to have some information about the context.

For exemple in surah 9 it says :


9.97
The bedouins are stronger in disbelief and hypocrisy and more likely not to know the limits of what [laws] Allah has revealed to His Messenger. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.


It's not a generalization of all the arab bedouins until nowadays but during a precise time.

9.98
And among the bedouins are some who consider what they spend as a loss and await for you turns of misfortune. Upon them will be a misfortune of evil. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.


9.99
But among the bedouins are some who believe in Allah and the Last Day and consider what they spend as means of nearness to Allah and of [obtaining] invocations of the Messenger. Unquestionably, it is a means of nearness for them. Allah will admit them to His mercy. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.


You said ---- (The bedouins are stronger in disbelief and hypocrisy and more likely not to know the limits of what [laws] Allah has revealed to His Messenger. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.)

So Allah has revealed to his Messenger.

So who wrote all this down, Seeing the Messenger Muhammad could not read or write.
So if Allah all powerful and wise, As you say, Then why didn't Allah not help Muhammad to read and write.


But had wife to read and write for him.
Wife should have been Messenger.

Wife read and write, But Muhammad no read and write.

So how Muhammad know what wife written. Seeing Muhammad not read and write.

So q'uran written by wife and not Muhammad. So muhammad gets all the credit and wife gets nothing.

Maybe wife written things in the Q'uran to get back at Muhammad for treating women worse than dogs.
 
Koran: 5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.
In my opinion this verse should be taken literally. Take this passage into account:

“Do not be the first to salute Jews and Christians, if you meet them. And when you meet them on the road, force them to the edge of the road (the gutter). That is to say, do not make any space for them to pass by [Sahih Muslim 16: 1489].”
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Koran: 5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.

In my opinion this verse should be taken literally. Take this passage into account:

“Do not be the first to salute Jews and Christians, if you meet them. And when you meet them on the road, force them to the edge of the road (the gutter). That is to say, do not make any space for them to pass by [Sahih Muslim 16: 1489].”

Thanks for the reply. A good point, because there is a lot of mis-information on this.

1): Our Muslims friends on this forum have pointed out that the english translation with "friends" is wrong, and should be "protectors"
2): If it is "protectors" then indeed this verse should be taken literal is also my understanding
3): Literal makes sense as it is best to ask God for protection and not humans
4): As we experience even heated virtual disagreements on RF, I understand "stick for protection to the same believe system"
4): Koran was written in a time with lots of violence and wars going on between Muslims and Christians/Jews; so silly to take them as protectors
5): Your quote [Sahih Muslim 16: 1489] should also be seen in the context of war as explained in the link below [experts say]
Hadith “Do Not Greet Jews… Force Them To Narrow Road…” Explained

But I also advise the Muslims to not blame always the non-Muslim not knowing context [there are always 2 to blame]:
1): Note: Muslims always tell non-Muslims "don't interpret if you don't know the context of verses around or even historical context"
2): Note: I tell Muslims "Better don't write verses out of context first, then we non-Muslim won't read out of context"
3): Note: Consider that 20% Muslims are fanatics = Wrongly interpreting the Koran, shows that even Muslim experts read verses Wrong

So from the above I would say the problem is not with the non-Muslim reading wrong.
The real problem is that the Muslim experts (and translators) are still doing the writing wrong.
When Muslim experts are writing books which are too much out of context [just some loose verses said 1200 years ago out of context]
And expecting the readers to take and read other books (Sahih) for knowing their context [while even Muslim experts (fanatics) interpret like us non-Muslims]
I would say, they are the ones making the huge mistake; creating misunderstanding instead of understanding and harmony

When I write something I make sure there is no misunderstanding. Even then misunderstanding happens. But to refer to other books and expect others to know these books, and even buy these books and read these books and make the right connections [and also knowing the correct historic context], just goes to far for me. Then better don't write a book in which "violent advices are given, without proper to find context"

If you write about committing a violent act [don't be friends; don't make space for them to pass by], and you fail to give correct context or even fail to give a note referring where to find the context, I think you failed to create the correct scripture. I can understand that 1200 years ago they didn't have computers, so I forgive them for not being that accurate. And those people knew the context, because they were living in it. But now 1200y later still failing to give the context must be IMHO fear to add something to the original text

IMHO
 
Last edited:

Aamer

Truth Seeker
So they are to be killed but were allowed to live under all the Caliphates and are still living in muslim countries until now.



As said before the word used is "awliya" [allies] which is the plural of waly [ally]
It can be translated as

9.97
The bedouins are stronger in disbelief and hypocrisy and more likely not to know the limits of what [laws] Allah has revealed to His Messenger. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.


It's not a generalization of all the arab bedouins until nowadays but during a precise time.

9.98
And among the bedouins are some who consider what they spend as a loss and await for you turns of misfortune. Upon them will be a misfortune of evil. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.


9.99
But among the bedouins are some who believe in Allah and the Last Day and consider what they spend as means of nearness to Allah and of [obtaining] invocations of the Messenger. Unquestionably, it is a means of nearness for them. Allah will admit them to His mercy. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
So they are to be killed but were allowed to live under all the Caliphates and are still living in muslim countries until now.



As said before the word used is "awliya" [allies] which is the plural of waly [ally]
It can be translated as protector too.

No the Quran doesn't generalize :

3.113
They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer].

3.114
They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds. And those are among the righteous.

3.115
And whatever good they do - never will it be removed from them. And Allah is Knowing of the righteous.


To have a better understanding of the Quran and avoid errors of interpretation it's better to no isolate a verse and to have some information about the context.

For exemple in surah 9 it says :


9.97
The bedouins are stronger in disbelief and hypocrisy and more likely not to know the limits of what [laws] Allah has revealed to His Messenger. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.


It's not a generalization of all the arab bedouins until nowadays but during a precise time.

9.98
And among the bedouins are some who consider what they spend as a loss and await for you turns of misfortune. Upon them will be a misfortune of evil. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.


9.99
But among the bedouins are some who believe in Allah and the Last Day and consider what they spend as means of nearness to Allah and of [obtaining] invocations of the Messenger. Unquestionably, it is a means of nearness for them. Allah will admit them to His mercy. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
So they are to be killed but were allowed to live under all the Caliphates and are still living in muslim countries until now.



As said before the word used is "awliya" [allies] which is the plural of waly [ally]
It can be translated as protector too.

No the Quran doesn't generalize :

3.113
They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer].

3.114
They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds. And those are among the righteous.

3.115
And whatever good they do - never will it be removed from them. And Allah is Knowing of the righteous.


To have a better understanding of the Quran and avoid errors of interpretation it's better to no isolate a verse and to have some information about the context.

For exemple in surah 9 it says :


9.97
The bedouins are stronger in disbelief and hypocrisy and more likely not to know the limits of what [laws] Allah has revealed to His Messenger. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.


It's not a generalization of all the arab bedouins until nowadays but during a precise time.

9.98
And among the bedouins are some who consider what they spend as a loss and await for you turns of misfortune. Upon them will be a misfortune of evil. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.


9.99
But among the bedouins are some who believe in Allah and the Last Day and consider what they spend as means of nearness to Allah and of [obtaining] invocations of the Messenger. Unquestionably, it is a means of nearness for them. Allah will admit them to His mercy. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
 

Aamer

Truth Seeker

Pastek,
The word in Arabic is "Arabul". This does not mean BEDOUINS. It means ARABS! In 9:97-99, The Most High is calling out all Arabs. Not just bedouins. The Arab translators don't want to admit this so they translate it as "bedouins" but surely you must know this is a wrong translation. It should read "ARABS" and not "bedouins". Yes or no?

Aamer.
 

Aamer

Truth Seeker
You said ---- (The bedouins are stronger in disbelief and hypocrisy and more likely not to know the limits of what [laws] Allah has revealed to His Messenger. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.)

So Allah has revealed to his Messenger.

So who wrote all this down, Seeing the Messenger Muhammad could not read or write.
So if Allah all powerful and wise, As you say, Then why didn't Allah not help Muhammad to read and write.


But had wife to read and write for him.
Wife should have been Messenger.

Wife read and write, But Muhammad no read and write.

So how Muhammad know what wife written. Seeing Muhammad not read and write.

So q'uran written by wife and not Muhammad. So muhammad gets all the credit and wife gets nothing.

Maybe wife written things in the Q'uran to get back at Muhammad for treating women worse than dogs.
 

Aamer

Truth Seeker
The whole concept of Muhammad being illiterate is a complete lie and is not supported by either logic or the Quran.
 

Pastek

Sunni muslim
Pastek,
The word in Arabic is "Arabul". This does not mean BEDOUINS. It means ARABS! In 9:97-99, The Most High is calling out all Arabs. Not just bedouins. The Arab translators don't want to admit this so they translate it as "bedouins" but surely you must know this is a wrong translation. It should read "ARABS" and not "bedouins". Yes or no?

No my dear.
It's not "El 3Arab" it's "El A3rab"

There was the arabs who lived in cities : Mecca , Medina and those who lived outside "the bedouins".
It was about those ones in particular.

But I also advise the Muslims to not blame always the non-Muslim not knowing context [there are always 2 to blame]:
1): Note: Muslims always tell non-Muslims "don't interpret if you don't know the context of verses around or even historical context"
2): Note: I tell Muslims "Better don't write verses out of context first, then we non-Muslim won't read out of context"
3): Note: Consider that 20% Muslims are fanatics = Wrongly interpreting the Koran, shows that even Muslim experts read verses Wrong

So from the above I would say the problem is not with the non-Muslim reading wrong.
The real problem is that the Muslim experts (and translators) are still doing the writing wrong.
When Muslim experts are writing books which are too much out of context [just some loose verses said 1200 years ago out of context]
And expecting the readers to take and read other books (Sahih) for knowing their context [while even Muslim experts (fanatics) interpret like us non-Muslims]
I would say, they are the ones making the huge mistake; creating misunderstanding instead of understanding and harmony

In many threads some people "quoted" verses of the Quran (in fact it was more a copy/past from anti-islam sites) and concluded/made interpretation around those isolated verses.

Even if a word is not translated as it should be, you can understand (most of time) when reading the whole Book that it's about a particular context.

In fact you just did the same while proposing this verse about not being friends.
If you have take the time to read the Quran you would understand this.
 

Pastek

Sunni muslim
And also from wikipedia it says :

Bedouins have been referred to by various names
throughout history, including Qedarites in the Old Testament and Arabaa by the Assyrians (ar-ba-a-a being a nisba of the noun Arab, a name still used for Bedouins today). They are referred to as the ʾAʿrāb (أعراب) in the Quran.

The English word bedouin comes from the Arabic badawī, which means "desert dweller" and is traditionally contrasted with ḥāḍir, the term for sedentary people.

Bedouin - Wikipedia
 
Thanks for the reply. A good point, because there is a lot of mis-information on this.

1): Our Muslims friends on this forum have pointed out that the english translation with "friends" is wrong, and should be "protectors"
2): If it is "protectors" then indeed this verse should be taken literal is also my understanding
3): Literal makes sense as it is best to ask God for protection and not humans
4): As we experience even heated virtual disagreements on RF, I understand "stick for protection to the same believe system"
4): Koran was written in a time with lots of violence and wars going on between Muslims and Christians/Jews; so silly to take them as protectors
5): Your quote [Sahih Muslim 16: 1489] should also be seen in the context of war as explained in the link below [experts say]
Hadith “Do Not Greet Jews… Force Them To Narrow Road…” Explained

But I also advise the Muslims to not blame always the non-Muslim not knowing context [there are always 2 to blame]:
1): Note: Muslims always tell non-Muslims "don't interpret if you don't know the context of verses around or even historical context"
2): Note: I tell Muslims "Better don't write verses out of context first, then we non-Muslim won't read out of context"
3): Note: Consider that 20% Muslims are fanatics = Wrongly interpreting the Koran, shows that even Muslim experts read verses Wrong

So from the above I would say the problem is not with the non-Muslim reading wrong.
The real problem is that the Muslim experts (and translators) are still doing the writing wrong.
When Muslim experts are writing books which are too much out of context [just some loose verses said 1200 years ago out of context]
And expecting the readers to take and read other books (Sahih) for knowing their context [while even Muslim experts (fanatics) interpret like us non-Muslims]
I would say, they are the ones making the huge mistake; creating misunderstanding instead of understanding and harmony

When I write something I make sure there is no misunderstanding. Even then misunderstanding happens. But to refer to other books and expect others to know these books, and even buy these books and read these books and make the right connections [and also knowing the correct historic context], just goes to far for me. Then better don't write a book in which "violent advices are given, without proper to find context"

If you write about committing a violent act [don't be friends; don't make space for them to pass by], and you fail to give correct context or even fail to give a note referring where to find the context, I think you failed to create the correct scripture. I can understand that 1200 years ago they didn't have computers, so I forgive them for not being that accurate. And those people knew the context, because they were living in it. But now 1200y later still failing to give the context must be IMHO fear to add something to the original text

IMHO
It amazes me just how much disagreement there is, even among Muslims, over the Quran and its interpretation. Various doctrines, pertaining to certain denominations of Islam, rest on the interpretation of a single word in the Quran. It is clear there is much confusion within the religion.

Perhaps they indeed failed to create scripture which plainly conveys what they meant to say. However, I do not think that is the case. For they were smart men, and they knew very well just how their words would be understood.

In these modern times, to appeal to modern sensibilities, apologists are whitewashing the obscene passages of scripture, saying, “Oh! Well of course not. One must understand yada-yada-yada.” This, so that the questioner will brush aside the abhorrent aspects of the religion. But those aspects are truly the face of the religion. In my opinion, the religion’s head is fatally wounded; and plainly, it is beyond recovery. And yet, that fatal wound has been healed, in the sight of many.
 
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