Challenge to Creationists: Ichneumon Wasp

[ecco]

Therefore, among Jehovah's Witnesses the Bible is the basis for truth.

This is really all you needed to say. Everything else is just rationalization to prop up that belief.

 

[ecco]

No. That doesn't influence my belief.

Now you are trying to backtrack your previous comment.

You already stated "the Bible is the basis for truth". How can you seriously state that your "basis for truth" doesn't influence your belief.

That would be delusional.

If that were the case, the only persons not believing in ToE would be JWs. That's not the case. There are agnostics, and others who do not believe, or even take the Bible literally, who do not accept ToE.

Nonsense. As you, yourself, stated, among JWs "the Bible is the basis for truth". This is only partially true among the majority of Christians. They pick and choose which parts are literal truth and which parts are allegory.

You are trying to compare apples to oranges.

 

[Jose Fly]

How about we make a deal.

You can ask me any questions provided...
1. When I supply the answer you explain what I am saying exactly, or what you understand, and say whether it answers your question or not.
2. You don't barrage me with multiple questions, and I don't do the same.
3. I get to question you, and we take it in turns.
4. We don't go any further until the question has been clearly answered.
5. You leave Jehovah's Witnesses out of it.

Did I leave anything out, which you would like to add?
Deal?

We can start Monday, if you agree.

Everything was fine right up until "You leave Jehovah's Witnesses out of it". That would be like a Hindu wanting to discuss not eating beef but saying "leave Hinduism out of it", or an Orthodox Jew wanting to discuss not working on Saturdays but saying "leave Judaism out of it".

Look, I could tell from yesterday's conversation that as soon as I started bringing up the role your faith plays in shaping your views on science, you shut down and got very defensive. It's as I noted yesterday, that a lot of creationists are unwilling to go down that road. Obviously that's the case here too.

I'm just not sure a productive discussion of this subject can be had when you refuse to talk about the role your faith plays in it.

 

[Jose Fly]

You already stated "the Bible is the basis for truth". How can you seriously state that your "basis for truth" doesn't influence your belief.

That would be delusional.

The last Jehovah's Witness I discussed this with went on and on about how nothing anyone could post would ever convince her to change her mind on evolution because if she did so, her life would lose all meaning and purpose (because her meaning and purpose came from her faith), she would be kicked out of the Witnesses, her Witness friends and family would treat her like a rotten piece of fruit, she would be dishonoring God, and so on.

And after all that, she actually tried to tell me that being a Jehovah's Witness played no role in shaping her views on evolution.

So yeah......sometimes the word "delusional" is entirely appropriate.

 

[nPeace]

Everything was fine right up until "You leave Jehovah's Witnesses out of it". That would be like a Hindu wanting to discuss not eating beef but saying "leave Hinduism out of it", or an Orthodox Jew wanting to discuss not working on Saturdays but saying "leave Judaism out of it".

Look, I could tell from yesterday's conversation that as soon as I started bringing up the role your faith plays in shaping your views on science, you shut down and got very defensive. It's as I noted yesterday, that a lot of creationists are unwilling to go down that road. Obviously that's the case here too.

I'm just not sure a productive discussion of this subject can be had when you refuse to talk about the role your faith plays in it.

You are not being truthful,... and that's the reason I wanted you to leave Jehovah's Witnesses out of it, because of your bias against them.
What you say here is a lie. I told you that my faith has nothing to do with it, but you insist on wanting to smear lies upon the Jehovah's Witnesses.
I saw through that when you kept bringing up their name unnecessarily, and so I realized that you wanted to find something with which you could try to smear their good reputation.
That is the only reason - your obvious - I call it envy - bias against them.

The Pharisees tried to do the same thing with Jesus.
Matthew 22:15.Then the Pharisees went and conspired together in order to trap him in his speech.
They realized they had nothing against him so they tried to cook up something.
It seems obvious to me, this is your agenda, and it's a dangerous one - very dangerous.

For this reason, I am happy to let you know, the rule stays. Take it or leave it. Either way, I am fine.

For the record, my religion has nothing to do with not accepting a theory, that has no real support, and defies common sense, logic, and reason.

 

[nPeace]

The last Jehovah's Witness I discussed this with went on and on about how nothing anyone could post would ever convince her to change her mind on evolution because if she did so, her life would lose all meaning and purpose (because her meaning and purpose came from her faith), she would be kicked out of the Witnesses, her Witness friends and family would treat her like a rotten piece of fruit, she would be dishonoring God, and so on.

And after all that, she actually tried to tell me that being a Jehovah's Witness played no role in shaping her views on evolution.

So yeah......sometimes the word "delusional" is entirely appropriate.

Smear campaign. That's what this is - officially.
So yeah. Good bye, forever Jose Fly.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You are not being truthful,... and that's the reason I wanted you to leave Jehovah's Witnesses out of it, because of your bias against them.
What you say here is a lie. I told you that my faith has nothing to do with it, but you insist on wanting to smear lies upon the Jehovah's Witnesses.
I saw through that when you kept bringing up their name unnecessarily, and so I realized that you wanted to find something with which you could try to smear their good reputation.
That is the only reason - your obvious - I call it envy - bias against them.

The Pharisees tried to do the same thing with Jesus.
Matthew 22:15.Then the Pharisees went and conspired together in order to trap him in his speech.
They realized they had nothing against him so they tried to cook up something.
It seems obvious to me, this is your agenda, and it's a dangerous one - very dangerous.

For this reason, I am happy to let you know, the rule stays. Take it or leave it. Either way, I am fine.

For the record, my religion has nothing to do with not accepting a theory, that has no real support, and defies common sense, logic, and reason.

Where were the supposed lies against the JW's? And please, don't play the martyr game for your cult. And technically the JW sect is a cult.

 

[Jose Fly]

You are not being truthful,... and that's the reason I wanted you to leave Jehovah's Witnesses out of it, because of your bias against them.

FYI, I have no bias against the Jehovah's Witnesses. I've only ever known a couple of members, and one of those was a good friend of mine for a few years.

What you say here is a lie

. I told you that my faith has nothing to do with it, but you insist on wanting to smear lies upon the Jehovah's Witnesses.

So to be clear here, the lie you're accusing me of is me saying that you being a Jehovah's Witness plays a role in your views on evolution, correct?

If that's so, then please answer this one question: Do you believe it's merely a coincidence that every member of the Jehovah's Witnesses rejects evolution as valid science?

I saw through that when you kept bringing up their name unnecessarily, and so I realized that you wanted to find something with which you could try to smear their good reputation.
That is the only reason - your obvious - I call it envy - bias against them.

Not sure what you're talking about, since the only thing I've said about them is that they require their members to not be "evolutionists". Are you now saying that's not true?

For the record, my religion has nothing to do with not accepting a theory, that has no real support, and defies common sense, logic, and reason.

And that brings me back to the question I asked you several times and you never answered: Can you describe for me how you came to reject evolution? What exactly did you study? Textbooks? Published papers? Did you attend evolutionary biology conferences? Did you take college-level courses in evolutionary biology?

Now that I see you are apparently never going to speak to me again, I'll just summarize why the above question is important. As we can see, you continually insist that your Jehovah's Witness faith plays absolutely no role whatsoever in your views on evolution. If that's so, that leads to an obvious question....what are your views based on, if not your faith? And that's where I was going with the above question. If it's not your faith, then you must have studied the subject a fair bit, correct? But the fact that you did everything you could to not answer the question makes it abundantly clear that the truth is, you've not studied the subject in any sort of serious way. You've never read a textbook on evolutionary biology; you've not read published papers on evolutionary biology; you've never attended a conference on evolutionary biology; and you've never taken a college-level course in evolutionary biology.

So now the question is, if your faith plays no role at all in your views on evolution and you've never studied the subject in any serious way, why do you deny it? As you can see from the posts from other members here, the answer is obvious.....it really is your faith and you're just in denial about it's role. As @ecco pointed out, you directly told us that "among Jehovah's Witnesses the Bible is the basis for truth".

Anyways, I again thank you for your time. I do understand why you don't want to talk about your faith and how it influences your views on evolution. Like I said earlier, most creationists don't want to go down that road; it's very personal and can get uncomfortable at times, which is why more often than not, creationists just shut the conversation down once we take a couple of steps in that direction.

As I said, I truly wish you no ill will. Take care.

 

[Jose Fly]

Smear campaign. That's what this is - officially.
So yeah. Good bye, forever Jose Fly.

I gotta be honest here.....I am totally confused at how anything I've said about the Jehovah's Witnesses constitutes a "smear campaign". All I've done is note that the Witnesses have a policy that their members cannot be "evolutionists", and if a member were to become an "evolutionist" they would face banishment from the faith.

And here's whats' really odd......you confirmed this multiple times! (CLICK HERE and HERE) Yet now you're accusing me of engaging in a "smear campaign"? So I guess since you confirmed what I said about the Witnesses, I guess that means you too were smearing the faith?

 

[ecco]

And technically the JW sect is a cult.

"technically". Only because, apparently, size matters.

 

[nPeace]

FYI, I have no bias against the Jehovah's Witnesses. I've only ever known a couple of members, and one of those was a good friend of mine for a few years.


So to be clear here, the lie you're accusing me of is me saying that you being a Jehovah's Witness plays a role in your views on evolution, correct?

If that's so, then please answer this one question: Do you believe it's merely a coincidence that every member of the Jehovah's Witnesses rejects evolution as valid science?


Not sure what you're talking about, since the only thing I've said about them is that they require their members to not be "evolutionists". Are you now saying that's not true?


And that brings me back to the question I asked you several times and you never answered: Can you describe for me how you came to reject evolution? What exactly did you study? Textbooks? Published papers? Did you attend evolutionary biology conferences? Did you take college-level courses in evolutionary biology?

Now that I see you are apparently never going to speak to me again, I'll just summarize why the above question is important. As we can see, you continually insist that your Jehovah's Witness faith plays absolutely no role whatsoever in your views on evolution. If that's so, that leads to an obvious question....what are your views based on, if not your faith? And that's where I was going with the above question. If it's not your faith, then you must have studied the subject a fair bit, correct? But the fact that you did everything you could to not answer the question makes it abundantly clear that the truth is, you've not studied the subject in any sort of serious way. You've never read a textbook on evolutionary biology; you've not read published papers on evolutionary biology; you've never attended a conference on evolutionary biology; and you've never taken a college-level course in evolutionary biology.

So now the question is, if your faith plays no role at all in your views on evolution and you've never studied the subject in any serious way, why do you deny it? As you can see from the posts from other members here, the answer is obvious.....it really is your faith and you're just in denial about it's role. As @ecco pointed out, you directly told us that "among Jehovah's Witnesses the Bible is the basis for truth".

Anyways, I again thank you for your time. I do understand why you don't want to talk about your faith and how it influences your views on evolution. Like I said earlier, most creationists don't want to go down that road; it's very personal and can get uncomfortable at times, which is why more often than not, creationists just shut the conversation down once we take a couple of steps in that direction.

As I said, I truly wish you no ill will. Take care.

I had you on ignore, but I said to myself. What if he is just genuinely ignorant of how wrong his actions are. Let me give him a chance at that.
I realize that this is genuinely your personality - to smear people with lies, when you do not have the facts, or even know persons personally. I'm not sure you realize how wrong that is. That is actually slander, and I don't know of any slander that is right.
If you accuse someone of something, not based on fact, but simply because you have convinced yourself that you are too smart, and intelligent to be wrong, you have simply demonstrated the opposite.
You are wrong. What you think you know, is simply just in your head.

If is is in your nature to to lie about people, I can't change that. That's up to you. If you take delight in that sort of personality... what more can I say. We will reap what we sow.

To show how biased you are. You say

If that's so, then please answer this one question: Do you believe it's merely a coincidence that every member of the Jehovah's Witnesses rejects evolution as valid science?

Yet I provided you links, for you to broaden your view, and you ignored it, claiming to not understand why I posted them, when I explained.
The atheist that came to believe in, and accept God, because it's more logical, and sensible to do so, are not Jehovah's Witnesses, so to present an argument such as the one you have, doesn't demonstrate that you have any interest in reasonableness.
Perhaps though, you may be genuinely an unreasonable fellow. I can't see any other logical conclusion.
Again, if you are happy making guesses, because of your imagined brilliance, go right ahead.

I gotta be honest here.....I am totally confused at how anything I've said about the Jehovah's Witnesses constitutes a "smear campaign". All I've done is note that the Witnesses have a policy that their members cannot be "evolutionists", and if a member were to become an "evolutionist" they would face banishment from the faith.

And here's whats' really odd......you confirmed this multiple times! (CLICK HERE and HERE) Yet now you're accusing me of engaging in a "smear campaign"? So I guess since you confirmed what I said about the Witnesses, I guess that means you too were smearing the faith?

As I explained, Jehovah's Witnesses study and live by the Bible. They are also reasonable, and therefore are guided by commonsense, and their power of reason. So their decisions, are made based on what they come to believe is right.
In my opinion, anyone that believes in something, or denies something, because of fear, is just weak, and has no faith. In such a case, such a person is merely going through an exercise that leads them nowhere - it's futile.
So I don't see any logic at all to your argument.
Maybe you want to be confused, as you target those whom, it appears to me, you seem to have a hang up.
Now you link to two posts, and claim I confirm something - which you haven't clearly identified, nor highlighted exactly where I confirmed anything.

I know one or two devious persons, so I am familiar with their dangerous tactics. Yours don't seem to be any different.

 

[Jose Fly]

I realize that this is genuinely your personality - to smear people with lies,

Obviously you're quite upset, but I would appreciate it if you would do one thing. Post a direct quote from me that you feel is a lie.

 

[nPeace]

Lies
1.

It's as though you have a personal issue with Jehovah's Witness. Do you?

Not at all. I'm just noting the obvious...if you belong to a faith that threatens its members with banishment and shunning should you become an "evolutionist", it's a major factor in why you deny evolution. To pretend otherwise is pure delusion.

2.

Obviously you're quite upset, but I would appreciate it if you would do one thing. Post a direct quote from me that you feel is a lie.

No. That doesn't influence my belief.

Really? You're actually expecting me to believe that being a Jehovah's Witness plays absolutely no role in your views on evolution, even though the Jehovah's Witnesses have very strict dogma on the subject and any deviation from that dogma will result in expulsion from the faith and complete isolation from all other Witnesses?

Come on now....you're insulting my intelligence. I mean....are you actually trying to say that denial of evolution by all Jehovah's Witnesses across the globe is completely unrelated to the Jehovah's Witness organization mandating that all their members deny evolution?

3.

I've had enough of that in the Watchmaker thread. It's not happening again.

I understand. Answering those two questions is simply not an option for you, for what I think are obvious reasons.

4.
Look, I could tell from yesterday's conversation that as soon as I started bringing up the role your faith plays in shaping your views on science, you shut down and got very defensive. It's as I noted yesterday, that a lot of creationists are unwilling to go down that road. Obviously that's the case here too.

5.
Well of course Jehovah's Witnesses have anti-evolution literature. Given how severely they punish anyone who deviates from their anti-evolution doctrine, such ridiculous literature is to be expected.

If you are denying that these are lies, please show how they are not.

 

[Jose Fly]

If you are denying that these are lies, please show how they are not.

Ok, let's see if we can figure this out.

Not at all. I'm just noting the obvious...if you belong to a faith that threatens its members with banishment and shunning should you become an "evolutionist", it's a major factor in why you deny evolution. To pretend otherwise is pure delusion.

Really? You're actually expecting me to believe that being a Jehovah's Witness plays absolutely no role in your views on evolution, even though the Jehovah's Witnesses have very strict dogma on the subject and any deviation from that dogma will result in expulsion from the faith and complete isolation from all other Witnesses?

Come on now....you're insulting my intelligence. I mean....are you actually trying to say that denial of evolution by all Jehovah's Witnesses across the globe is completely unrelated to the Jehovah's Witness organization mandating that all their members deny evolution?

The point of contention here is you are insisting that you being a Jehovah's Witness plays absolutely no role in your views on evolution, whereas I am saying it does.

So to clear this up, please answer the question I've asked you several times now: Can you describe for me how you came to reject evolution? What exactly did you study? Textbooks? Published papers? Did you attend evolutionary biology conferences? Did you take college-level courses in evolutionary biology?

I understand. Answering those two questions is simply not an option for you, for what I think are obvious reasons.

Then please explain why you refused to answer those questions. If you're going to say that you did answer them, link to the post where you did.

Look, I could tell from yesterday's conversation that as soon as I started bringing up the role your faith plays in shaping your views on science, you shut down and got very defensive. It's as I noted yesterday, that a lot of creationists are unwilling to go down that road. Obviously that's the case here too.

That's simply a matter of record. You even got to the point where you posted to me "Good bye, forever Jose Fly."

That is the very definition of "shutting down" in a conversation.

Well of course Jehovah's Witnesses have anti-evolution literature. Given how severely they punish anyone who deviates from their anti-evolution doctrine, such ridiculous literature is to be expected.

So when the other Jehovah's Witness here told me that a member who became an "evolutionist" would be treated like a rotten piece of fruit and someone spreading poison, was she lying?

 

[nPeace]

Ok, let's see if we can figure this out.



The point of contention here is you are insisting that you being a Jehovah's Witness plays absolutely no role in your views on evolution, whereas I am saying it does.

So to clear this up, please answer the question I've asked you several times now: Can you describe for me how you came to reject evolution? What exactly did you study? Textbooks? Published papers? Did you attend evolutionary biology conferences? Did you take college-level courses in evolutionary biology?


Then please explain why you refused to answer those questions. If you're going to say that you did answer them, link to the post where you did.


That's simply a matter of record. You even got to the point where you posted to me "Good bye, forever Jose Fly."

That is the very definition of "shutting down" in a conversation.


So when the other Jehovah's Witness here told me that a member who became an "evolutionist" would be treated like a rotten piece of fruit and someone spreading poison, was she lying?

I don't see anything that shows you did not lie. I only see questions. So may I suggest that you said all those things without having the facts, but simply based on how intelligent you think you are?
Or.... one more time....
If you are denying that these are lies, please show how they are not.

 

[Jose Fly]

I don't see anything that shows you did not lie. I only see questions. So may I suggest that you said all those things without having the facts, but simply based on how intelligent you think you are?
Or.... one more time....
If you are denying that these are lies, please show how they are not.

Sigh....

Well, I tried to resolve the issues you raised, but apparently you want to make this all about "who's the liar". Fine.

#1: You stated, "The Bible is the textbook of Christian faith, Therefore, among Jehovah's Witnesses the Bible is the basis for truth."

You are a Jehovah's Witness. So for you, whether or not evolution is true is based on your faith in the Bible. You also claim that your faith plays absolutely no role in your views on evolution. Both statements cannot be true. So either you were lying when you said "among Jehovah's Witnesses the Bible is the basis for truth" or when you said your faith plays no role in your views on evolution.

#2: You claimed you answered the two questions I asked you (what specifically you'd studied regarding evolution and how you account for the consensus of scientists on evolution). I say you haven't. Since the burden of proof is on the positive claim, it falls on you to show where you answered. If you don't, then you were lying when you said you answered and are lying now in your accusation against me.

#3: It's simply a matter of record that you attempted to shut down the conversation when you said "Good bye, forever Jose Fly."

#4: Again, that the Jehovah's Witnesses punish members who become "evolutionists" is a matter of record as posted by the Witnesses here in this forum.

Your post #568: "a person who accepts the teachings of the Bible, makes a dedication to God, to live by his word, and then rejects those teachings, are really defectors, and are no longer part of the flock". Thus, any Jehovah's Witness who becomes an "evolutionist" will be punished by being labelled a "defector" and being expelled from "the flock".

When asked what would happen to a Jehovah's Witness if they became an "evolutionist", a Jehovah's Witness posted, "why would we receive 'defectors' back into our ranks only to have them spread their poison. Let them commiserate with each other....that is all they can do apparently. They have nowhere to go. Like a ripe piece of fruit, they can't go back to being 'green'....they just go rotten."

In sum, my statements were not lies and some of yours are. I'm sorry you chose to go this route, but here we are.

 

[ecco]

Lies
1.

Not at all. I'm just noting the obvious...if you belong to a faith that threatens its members with banishment and shunning should you become an "evolutionist", it's a major factor in why you deny evolution. To pretend otherwise is pure delusion.

2.



Really? You're actually expecting me to believe that being a Jehovah's Witness plays absolutely no role in your views on evolution, even though the Jehovah's Witnesses have very strict dogma on the subject and any deviation from that dogma will result in expulsion from the faith and complete isolation from all other Witnesses?

Come on now....you're insulting my intelligence. I mean....are you actually trying to say that denial of evolution by all Jehovah's Witnesses across the globe is completely unrelated to the Jehovah's Witness organization mandating that all their members deny evolution?

3.
I understand. Answering those two questions is simply not an option for you, for what I think are obvious reasons.

4.
Look, I could tell from yesterday's conversation that as soon as I started bringing up the role your faith plays in shaping your views on science, you shut down and got very defensive. It's as I noted yesterday, that a lot of creationists are unwilling to go down that road. Obviously that's the case here too.

5.
Well of course Jehovah's Witnesses have anti-evolution literature. Given how severely they punish anyone who deviates from their anti-evolution doctrine, such ridiculous literature is to be expected.

If you are denying that these are lies, please show how they are not.

This viewer does not see them as lies. As an example...

if you belong to a faith that threatens its members with banishment and shunning should you become an "evolutionist", it's a major factor in why you deny evolution
​

That is a factual statement. It applies equally to JW and any religion that would banish or shun any member for any specific belief. The rest are just amplifications of the above.

Perhaps you consider them lies because you sincerely believe that any criticism of JW must be a lie. Beliefs like that are the result of years of indoctrination.

 

[nPeace]

Sigh....

Well, I tried to resolve the issues you raised, but apparently you want to make this all about "who's the liar". Fine.

#1: You stated, "The Bible is the textbook of Christian faith, Therefore, among Jehovah's Witnesses the Bible is the basis for truth."

You are a Jehovah's Witness. So for you, whether or not evolution is true is based on your faith in the Bible. You also claim that your faith plays absolutely no role in your views on evolution. Both statements cannot be true. So either you were lying when you said "among Jehovah's Witnesses the Bible is the basis for truth" or when you said your faith plays no role in your views on evolution.

The Bible is indeed the textbook of Christian faith, for that is where the teachings of Christ are found.
A Christian lives by the teachings an example of Jesus Christ.
All Jehovah's Witnesses study the Bible, and based on their study, have accepted that the Bible is true.
You said...
I'm just noting the obvious...if you belong to a faith that threatens its members with banishment and shunning should you become an "evolutionist", it's a major factor in why you deny evolution.
This statement has nothing to do with the statements I made above. It is utterly false.
If you were able to actually prove otherwise, you would do so, but you can't.

#2: You claimed you answered the two questions I asked you (what specifically you'd studied regarding evolution and how you account for the consensus of scientists on evolution). I say you haven't. Since the burden of proof is on the positive claim, it falls on you to show where you answered. If you don't, then you were lying when you said you answered and are lying now in your accusation against me.

So, here you also failed to show that what you said here was not a lie.

You first asked those questions I believe you are referring to here.
You repeated questions here.
I answered one of your questions here.
You argued that your questions weren't answered here.
I referred you to the post where I answered your question, here.
Again you question here.

Here, I tell you that I answered your previous questions, and you added on more which I had already answered. My exact words were...
I gave you an answer for all your questions. You tell me you understand. Yet you come back with more questions that are basically the same questions put in different words.
Trust me, when I say, I am a nice guy, and actually being more than nice to you.

I don't mind having conversation with you, but when you are going to drill me with questions for answers you already received, I have to wonder...

#3: It's simply a matter of record that you attempted to shut down the conversation when you said "Good bye, forever Jose Fly."

This is a blatant lie. For the record, for this reason - this lie you are back on my ignore list.
My post here. had nothing to do with your two questions, more specifically your series of questions, which we had ended here, four post before you told the fourth lie, which was what blew the fuse, and then the next post, everything went black.

You have also failed to show that this was not a lie. You can't.

I understand. Answering those two questions is simply not an option for you, for what I think are obvious reasons.

Is this something you do on a daily basis?
I understand that when one grows up with the practice of telling lies it becomes a habit that is hard to break, but when one does not make a real effort to stop, they just keep getting better and better at it, until they actually believe the lie to be the truth. Sad.

#4: Again, that the Jehovah's Witnesses punish members who become "evolutionists" is a matter of record as posted by the Witnesses here in this forum.

Your post #568: "a person who accepts the teachings of the Bible, makes a dedication to God, to live by his word, and then rejects those teachings, are really defectors, and are no longer part of the flock". Thus, any Jehovah's Witness who becomes an "evolutionist" will be punished by being labelled a "defector" and being expelled from "the flock".

When asked what would happen to a Jehovah's Witness if they became an "evolutionist", a Jehovah's Witness posted, "why would we receive 'defectors' back into our ranks only to have them spread their poison. Let them commiserate with each other....that is all they can do apparently. They have nowhere to go. Like a ripe piece of fruit, they can't go back to being 'green'....they just go rotten."

In sum, my statements were not lies and some of yours are. I'm sorry you chose to go this route, but here we are.

The deception here is so clear as to tell the kind of person you are.
In my post here, I said...
The second claim you made, is also not accurate, from what I have read.
I see someone saying, simply, that a person who accepts the teachings of the Bible, makes a dedication to God, to live by his word, and then rejects those teachings, are really defectors, and are no longer part of the flock, which protects those in the fold.
Also, the defector only becomes rotten, like a ripe fruit fallen from a tree and left there.
One that defects, cannot expect to enjoy the same association, they once had.

That's what I understand from this...

...and you deceptively word it tis way...
Your post #568: "a person who accepts the teachings of the Bible, makes a dedication to God, to live by his word, and then rejects those teachings, are really defectors, and are no longer part of the flock". Thus, any Jehovah's Witness who becomes an "evolutionist" will be punished by being labelled a "defector" and being expelled from "the flock".

Wow.
Now that I see what kind of person you are, I am just getting an image in my mind.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Bible is indeed the textbook of Christian faith, for that is where the teachings of Christ are found.
A Christian lives by the teachings an example of Jesus Christ.
All Jehovah's Witnesses study the Bible, and based on their study, have accepted that the Bible is true.
You said...
I'm just noting the obvious...if you belong to a faith that threatens its members with banishment and shunning should you become an "evolutionist", it's a major factor in why you deny evolution.
This statement has nothing to do with the statements I made above. It is utterly false.
If you were able to actually prove otherwise, you would do so, but you can't.


So, here you also failed to show that what you said here was not a lie.

You first asked those questions I believe you are referring to here.
You repeated questions here.
I answered one of your questions here.
You argued that your questions weren't answered here.
I referred you to the post where I answered your question, here.
Again you question here.

Here, I tell you that I answered your previous questions, and you added on more which I had already answered. My exact words were...
I gave you an answer for all your questions. You tell me you understand. Yet you come back with more questions that are basically the same questions put in different words.
Trust me, when I say, I am a nice guy, and actually being more than nice to you.

I don't mind having conversation with you, but when you are going to drill me with questions for answers you already received, I have to wonder...


This is a blatant lie. For the record, for this reason - this lie you are back on my ignore list.
My post here. had nothing to do with your two questions, more specifically your series of questions, which we had ended here, four post before you told the fourth lie, which was what blew the fuse, and then the next post, everything went black.

You have also failed to show that this was not a lie. You can't.


Is this something you do on a daily basis?
I understand that when one grows up with the practice of telling lies it becomes a habit that is hard to break, but when one does not make a real effort to stop, they just keep getting better and better at it, until they actually believe the lie to be the truth. Sad.


The deception here is so clear as to tell the kind of person you are.
In my post here, I said...
The second claim you made, is also not accurate, from what I have read.
I see someone saying, simply, that a person who accepts the teachings of the Bible, makes a dedication to God, to live by his word, and then rejects those teachings, are really defectors, and are no longer part of the flock, which protects those in the fold.
Also, the defector only becomes rotten, like a ripe fruit fallen from a tree and left there.
One that defects, cannot expect to enjoy the same association, they once had.

That's what I understand from this...

...and you deceptively word it tis way...
Your post #568: "a person who accepts the teachings of the Bible, makes a dedication to God, to live by his word, and then rejects those teachings, are really defectors, and are no longer part of the flock". Thus, any Jehovah's Witness who becomes an "evolutionist" will be punished by being labelled a "defector" and being expelled from "the flock".

Wow.
Now that I see what kind of person you are, I am just getting an image in my mind.

I saw no deception, no lying, by @Jose Fly. If anything it looks like it could be the other way around. By the way, he need not prove that he did not lie. The burden of proof would be upon you since you claimed that he lied. He may have been wrong, but that does not look to be the case either, but I seriously doubt if you could prove that he was lying. Second you conflate JW doctrine and Christianity. It is one Christian sect (more properly a cult) out of countless sects. They too pick and choose which parts of the Bible that they will follow as do all other Christians. Luckily no one does follow all of the Bible since that person would be a first class psychopath. Your sect chooses to believe some of the obviously false parts of the Bible and end up calling God a liar, even though they do not realize it. Literalists tend to go nuts when one points out that they are calling God a liar and they do not seem to ever have an answer for that.

 

[Jose Fly]

Well, it looks like nPeace has finally shut down the conversation, while simultaneously claiming it's a lie to say he shut down the conversation.

Yup, that's just how weird this has become.

You said...
I'm just noting the obvious...if you belong to a faith that threatens its members with banishment and shunning should you become an "evolutionist", it's a major factor in why you deny evolution.
This statement has nothing to do with the statements I made above. It is utterly false.

What's weird here is that you're not disputing that the Jehovah's Witnesses ban and shun members who become "evolutionists", even though earlier you claimed it was a lie.

As far as whether that sort of threat is a factor in your views on evolution, I still maintain that saying it's not is an insult to everyone's intelligence.

You first asked those questions I believe you are referring to here.
You repeated questions here.
I answered one of your questions here.

Ok this is just plain bizarre. I asked what you'd studied and how you accounted for scientists' agreement and apparently this is your answer to one of those questions...

Your world view seems quite narrow to me.
I suggest you broaden it. Focusing on me will not help you.

WHY ATHEISTS CHANGE THEIR MIND: 8 COMMON FACTORS
How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind
List of former atheists and agnostics
Questioning evolution is neither science denial nor the preserve of creationists
New evidence suggests many who struggle to accept aspects of evolution still exhibit trust in science overall – and that even some atheists have their doubts

over 1 in 3 of Canadian atheists, and nearly 1 in 5 UK atheists also felt human consciousness could not be explained by evolutionary processes​

I have absolutely no idea which of those questions that's supposed to be an answer to. It's so bizarre, I'm kinda at a loss for words.

You argued that your questions weren't answered here.
I referred you to the post where I answered your question, here.

Um......er......what? This is the entirety of your post....

No.
What questions? If you are referring to the one you just asked, I have not ignored it. I gave an answer.
However, if you are not satisfied, perhaps you need to get rid of the elevated view you have of yourself.​

As anyone with half a brain can see, there's no reference in there. Are you sure you're okay?

This is a blatant lie.

Again....just plain bizarre. I said you tried to shut down the conversation and quoted you telling me "Good bye forever". You say it's a lie and follow it up with, "you are back on my ignore list."

IOW, "It's a lie to say I'm shutting down the conversation, so I'm shutting down the conversation!"

In my post here, I said...
The second claim you made, is also not accurate, from what I have read.
I see someone saying, simply, that a person who accepts the teachings of the Bible, makes a dedication to God, to live by his word, and then rejects those teachings, are really defectors, and are no longer part of the flock, which protects those in the fold.
Also, the defector only becomes rotten, like a ripe fruit fallen from a tree and left there.
One that defects, cannot expect to enjoy the same association, they once had.

That's what I understand from this...

Yep, that's what you said all right.

...and you deceptively word it tis way...
Your post #568: "a person who accepts the teachings of the Bible, makes a dedication to God, to live by his word, and then rejects those teachings, are really defectors, and are no longer part of the flock". Thus, any Jehovah's Witness who becomes an "evolutionist" will be punished by being labelled a "defector" and being expelled from "the flock".

Um....both those posts and quotes are from you! Unless you think I'm somehow controlling you when you write posts, I have no idea how you can claim I'm twisting the words within your posts.

Wow.

Yeah....wow. That's about all I can say too......wow.

Now that I see what kind of person you are, I am just getting an image in my mind.

I guess I can kinda see how you think of it that way. Here you are, a Jehovah's Witness who has the threat of social and emotional ruin hanging over your head if you were to ever give an inch on evolution, and has been indoctrinated with the belief that evolution is of Satan....and here I come along and start talking to you about evolution in a way that eventually you can't counter, and ask you questions that you can't answer.....

So what's a good Jehovah's Witness to do? Apparently it's imply that I'm satan and run, run, run, as fast and as far away as you can. I guess in a weird way it sorta makes sense.

I suppose that's just how it is when you belong to an organization that tells you they'll ruin your life if you deviate one little bit from their dogma. More's the pity.

What I always wonder in this sort of situation is whether you believe you're representing your faith in a positive way here. Do you seriously think that after someone reads the above from you, they're going to think "Those Jehovah's Witnesses sure do have it all together"?

I'll repeat...it's just bizarre .