Challenge to tariqkhwaja (the Qadiani)

[Ben Dhyan]

Holy Qur'an says:

Kullu nafsin dhaa'iqatu'l mawti which means "Every souls shall taste death" (3:185) and 'Eesa (alaihi salam) is no exception to this rule. Only thing is that 'Eesa (alaihi salam) death has been delayed until he returns back to this world and completes his mission to slay the Maseeh ad-Dajjal (anti christ).

According to my understanding, this seems to imply that Jesus's failure to complete the mission 2,000 years ago was that of failing to purge the 'anti-christ' from within 'his' being, hence the necessity of reincarnation (return to the world)) to complete the mission, ie. death of the false ego.

In the mean time, and due to this delay, the powers of darkness have naturally grown to such proportions that the world is in turmoil!
Perhaps it is appropriate, that we contemplate the impending return and subsequent 'death' of Jesus and the simultaneous 'birth' of a new age?

 

[Ilias Ahmad]

Come on man, you don't seriously believe that a 'man' like Jesus was taken by God into some mythical second 'heaven'. I mean seriously, you can't be that dumb. You're telling me that Jesus is alive for 2000+ years. He doesn't age, doesn't eat or go to the bathroom. He's unlike any other human ever. Even Mohammad the 'last' and 'greatest' of all prophets wasn't able to live beyond his 63 years but the Holy Jesus continues to live on the right hand side of God with his earthly body with no need of any human necessities. He's obviously not human but a demigod of the highest order. And now you Muslims tell me that he will come at the 'end of times' to save the Muslims from the 'anti-christ'. That's simply hilarious. Let me tell you something, the world has entered a new era. People don't believe in mythical creatures any more. if you are to bring Islam in the 21st century you have to get rid of these mythical stories about dragons and princes. Its fine for putting kids to sleep at night telling them a jesus is in the heavens watching them. Lol. And he will come to save Mohammad's religion from the anti christ becasue guess what Mohammad was NOT the last prophet. I mean he was, but not really. Apparently he didn't finish the job and died off after 60 years because he was not super human like Mr. Jesus. His body got decomposed but Jesus's body was made of God like material so it got transported into heavens where the great Allah is present. Which by the way means that He's not present anywhere else. So there goes the common misconception that Allah is present everywhere. Actually the pagans were right. He IS in the heavens. So the old Jesus who was weak and powerless to even stop himself from getting crucified will be transformed to a demigod with super human powers and will save the nation of Islam from the anti-christ(who ever that is). So the world will remember Jesus (not Mohammad) as the LAST prophet. As the SAVIOUR of the human race against the mythical creature with one eye and a huge donkey. Lol. Jesus will actually be remembered as the last prophet because Mohammad was too weak and 'human' to do his job. Man, thats quite a story. But in all seriousness it may be good enough for the uneducated Muslims of today to give them hope for salvation but for any other person it's a little too much to handle.

Islam teaches belief in miracles. We believe Jesus (alaihi salam) is a human being like you or I. He has a heart which pumps blood into his veins just like anyone else. But Allah has the power to keep him alive for over 2000 years. Just like Allah caused prophet Moses to split the Red Sea so his people could cross over and the prophet Elijah to go to heaven on a chariot of fire, and prophet Jesus to raise the dead people back to life, and prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) to split the moon in two. These miraculous events were not their own doing, these were the acts of God Almighty who manifested these miracles through their hands to prove their truthfulness.

You are free to believe that these are mere fairy tales. This thread is not to prove the truth of these things, it is to prove the Qadiani religion wrong.

The reason I was debating La Nabi Ba'adi was because that statement is repeatedly made by Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and finding whether an alternate meaning exists to the word Ba'adi is important if Ahmadis are to defend their claim. As for the other hadith they are just singular Hadiths and they can be disregarded in light of the evidence I am going to present from the Quran.

You call yourself a Muslim and say the ahadeeth can be disregarded? Subhan Allah! You are exposing yourself and your false prophet. Mirza Qadiani also wrote something similar like you:

"The basis for our claims is not Hadith but Quran and that wahi (revelation) which comes to me. Yes, in support we also present those Hadith which are according to Quran and do not contradict my wahy. Rest of the Hadith, I throw them away like waste paper." (Roohani Khazain, vol.19, p.140)

So what is the point to discuss hadith with Qadianis? If you show them a hadith which prove them wrong, they will say that it contradicts the wahi of Mirza Qadiani so they will "disregard" it, just like Mr. Tariq Khwaja is doing to all the ahadith I posted which prove that his belief is wrong. Mr. Khwaja doesn't care for ahadeeth, the words of Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam). Qadianism is totally different religion from Islam, it is the writings of Mirza Qadiani they believe, not the ahadeeth of Hazrat Khatamul Anbiya, Muhammad Mustafa (sallallahu alaihi wa salam).

According to my understanding, this seems to imply that Jesus's failure to complete the mission 2,000 years ago was that of failing to purge the 'anti-christ' from within 'his' being, hence the necessity of reincarnation (return to the world)) to complete the mission, ie. death of the false ego. In the mean time, and due to this delay, the powers of darkness have naturally grown to such proportions that the world is in turmoil! Perhaps it is appropriate, that we contemplate the impending return and subsequent 'death' of Jesus and the simultaneous 'birth' of a new age?

Jesus (alaihi salam) didn't fail his mission. His mission, like the mission of all prophets, is simply to convey the message that God has revealed to them. They have no power or responsibility for whether or not their people accept the message or reject it. In case of Jesus, most of his people rejected him. They even sought to kill him, so Allah saved his life and raised him to the heavens. After he ascended, his followers went astray and began to worship him. They believed he was a divine incarnation, though the Bible is very clear: "God is not a man" (Numbers 23:19)

Because his followers began to worship him, Allah had planned to have Jesus return to this world and reveal the truth about himself, that he is only a human being commissioned by God for the spiritual reformation of his people. He will also confirm to the Jews and Christians upon his second advent that Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) is the last and final prophet for all humanity, and everyone is now bound by the shariah (law of Muhammad), including himself. The guidance and salvation is contained in the Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah, and this is what Jesus will preach.

The Anti-Christ will be a satanic deception. He will be someone who will claim to be God, and he will deceive many people. He will pretend to be Jesus and do many miracles so the misguided people will follow him and worship him. Than when the real Jesus comes he will fight and kill the Anti Christ and establish Islam as the supreme religion.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

u call yourself a Muslim and say the ahadeeth can be disregarded? Subhan Allah! You are exposing yourself and your false prophet. Mirza Qadiani also wrote something similar like you:

"The basis for our claims is not Hadith but Quran and that wahi (revelation) which comes to me. Yes, in support we also present those Hadith which are according to Quran and do not contradict my wahy. Rest of the Hadith, I throw them away like waste paper." (Roohani Khazain, vol.19, p.140)

So what is the point to discuss hadith with Qadianis? If you show them a hadith which prove them wrong, they will say that it contradicts the wahi of Mirza Qadiani so they will "disregard" it, just like Mr. Tariq Khwaja is doing to all the ahadith I posted which prove that his belief is wrong. Mr. Khwaja doesn't care for ahadeeth, the words of Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam). Qadianism is totally different religion from Islam, it is the writings of Mirza Qadiani they believe, not the ahadeeth of Hazrat Khatamul Anbiya, Muhammad Mustafa (sallallahu alaihi wa salam).

We already discussed this in the following link: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/same-faith-debates/67130-muslims-only-what-if-quran-sunnah.html so you can add your thoughts there if you wish.

I have already proven that Ba'adi can have another meaning. I will discuss the death of Jesus that I will open in another thread on the same-faith forum. But regardless of the previous two sentences to finish this off I will repeat what I said in the other thread:

But despite all of this there might still be some doubt. So to seal the topic it is said in the Quran, Surah Nisa (Chapter 4), Verse 69:

"And whoso obeys Allah and this Messenger ..."
So there is no need for a new religion. From now on it is sufficient to obey Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)

"... shall be among those on whom Allah has bestowed His blessings ..."
The word "Na'ima" which Muslims recite several times a day in Surah Fatiha during their prayers is used here.

"... the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs, and the Righteous. And an excellent company are they."
Pretty straightforward. And that is what Ahmadis say. That obedience of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) can allow one to attain the high status of Righteousness, Martyrdom, Truthfulness, and, of course, the highest of all, Prophethood. But only if one is completely obedient to the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and none else.

A teacher teaches a student. His student goes on to learn new material from other books and from other teachers until the student finally becomes a teacher too. Not much credit to the original teacher goes here.

But if a teacher teaches a student. And the teachings of the teacher are so complete that the student can become a teacher by just following those teachings. What an excellent teacher is that. A teacher (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) who taught so well that his students became teachers in their own right.

 

[Ilias Ahmad]

And whoso obeys Allâh and the Messenger, then they will be in the company of those on whom Allâh has bestowed His blessing, of the prophets, the truthful, the martyrs, and the pious. And what an excellent company that is! (An-Nisa 4:69)

Here the Holy Qur'an is saying: fa'oola'ika ma'a alladheena 'an'ama Allahu 'alayhim meaning they will be in the company (among) those upon whom Allah has bestowed His blessing. This verse does not mean you can attain level of prophethood, it is saying that if you obey Allah and His Messenger Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam) you will be in the company of the prophets, as well as the truthful, the martyrs, and the pious, in paradise. The verse makes it clear again when it says wa hasuna 'oola'ika rafeeqa meaning "and an excellent company are they". Qadianis are notorious for changing the meaning of the verse. They don't realize Arabic word ma'a means with or among, in the company of, just like elsewhere in the Qur'an where it says: 'Inna Allaha ma'a assabireen which means that "Allah is with (ma'a) the steadfast" (2:153)

 

[tariqkhwaja]

This verse does not mean you can attain level of prophethood, it is saying that if you obey Allah and His Messenger Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam) you will be in the company of the prophets, as well as the truthful, the martyrs, and the pious, in paradise.

Oh yes we are notorious I will give you that. For all the wrong reasons ... I will give you that too.

Suppose I agree with you that by saying "will be in the company" God meant that you can not reach the status of Prophethood but you will be in their company. If that is the case then the same should be applied to the other three categories.

So we will be in the company of righteous but we won't be righteous. We will be in the company of truthful but we won't be truthful and we will be in the company of martyrs but, unfortunately, we won't be martyrs. You see the four categories mentioned are all Nai'ma of God. By not allowing SUBORDINATE prophethood you are essentially barring Muslims of one of the Nai'ma. And in the argument you have presented above you are debarring muslims of ALL four forms of Nai'ma specified in the verse.

Please look at the matter with nuetrality. Look at it with honesty. And with Allah's Grace you will realize the great mistake you are making. Do we not say "Tawaffana ma'al Abraar". What does "ma'" mean here? It means in the company but also means that we are one of them. Because that is the way we will be in their company. And what an excellent "Rafeeqa" they are.

 

[Adib]

Tariq, just wanted to let you know that Ilias appears to be banned indefinitely, if you weren't already aware.

 

[yousaf]

So you call him no true muslim, yet you want to debate him in the Same Faith arena?

Surely, it is for God to decide who is a believer and who is not.

Regards,
Scott

absolutely correct, when allah says in the quraan there is no prophet after muhhamad(saw), and someone comes and says i am the prophet after muhhamad(saw)
it's obvious your goign to call him a disbeliever, because his beliefs contradict the teachings of islam

 

[tariqkhwaja]

absolutely correct, when allah says in the quraan there is no prophet after muhhamad(saw), and someone comes and says i am the prophet after muhhamad(saw) it's obvious your goign to call him a disbeliever, because his beliefs contradict the teachings of islam

Man I love it when you call me a disbeliever. You just do not realize how much I love it. Unanimous verdict by the ummah: what more could one ask for?