Changes in Young Worlds

[Koldo]

I think that's my point. It's like alcoholism because being drunk appears a better more enjoyable reality than living one's sober life the real world. Escapism. But the downside of that is, is that you forget how to live, and so the bottle, or the Internet is the only place you know to go to find yourself.

What does it mean to forget how to live? Is there a specific way to live?

But is that healthy?

I genuinely find that to be a secondary concern. The issue is whether it is particularly unhealthy with no significant benefit.

Is that how we were evolved by nature to live, disconnected from the world into a purely artificial reality?

What if it was not how we were evolved by nature to live? Should nature dictate how we live?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The real problem is believing it is. You are describing escapism.

Not necessarily. I find video games not that great of a substitute for life, but LARPing is something on a whole different level. My LARP character, the "dark elf me," she's way more exciting and interesting and accomplished than the real me. And it's more than just escapism to be living in another world. There's actually a potential for our characters to "bleed over" into our real lives. But it is definitely more fascinating than mundane, real life. Sara will never fight in large battles, never wield magic and sword, never slay death knights and liches to save the world and will never be the champion of a god. That's Baelgora. Baelgora is nimble and very fast with her sword, Onyx Fang. Her faith in her god, mind and her use of magic have made her a fierce and difficult enemy to face on the field. She's a respected member of a very powerful guild of mages, can request favors of the local reeve and ealdorman, and serves her god as high priestess. About the only overlap would be the physical abilities and both of us being involved with medicine and healing. Except Baelgora has occasionally resurrected the dead.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The biggest problem is that the world around (as in our daily lives) is fairly uninteresting compared to what the software offers.

Not usually. Jobs are often soul destroying bores, but unless you're stuck at home there's usually something interesting to do.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

I am 33 years old. When I was a young kid I had computer class where we learned how to type. Within a few sessions of this I became a great typer that still continues to this day. I don't have to look the keyboard to type either, typing is as natural to me as blinking, in part because of that class. Personally, I think both physical and digital formats should be used, even at an early age. I do prefer typing over physically writing something, but it's not because I can't physically write things well - I can - but my hands will cramp so fast after writing a page or two of notes. I can type as much as I want and my hands feel alright, no matter how much I type. So, I think there is still good use for either way of expression. And there's positives and downsides to each way of expression. I don't mind if young children are learning on Chromebooks, but at the same time, they shouldn't be learning exclusively on their Chromebooks either. Computers are now a part of our every day life and should be used frequently, but not as a crutch for learning outside of it. But if you do give first graders computers, be prepared to replace a few of them, though...

 

[Windwalker]

Not necessarily. I find video games not that great of a substitute for life, but LARPing is something on a whole different level. My LARP character, the "dark elf me," she's way more exciting and interesting and accomplished than the real me. And it's more than just escapism to be living in another world. There's actually a potential for our characters to "bleed over" into our real lives. But it is definitely more fascinating than mundane, real life. Sara will never fight in large battles, never wield magic and sword, never slay death knights and liches to save the world and will never be the champion of a god. That's Baelgora. Baelgora is nimble and very fast with her sword, Onyx Fang. Her faith in her god, mind and her use of magic have made her a fierce and difficult enemy to face on the field. She's a respected member of a very powerful guild of mages, can request favors of the local reeve and ealdorman, and serves her god as high priestess. About the only overlap would be the physical abilities and both of us being involved with medicine and healing. Except Baelgora has occasionally resurrected the dead.

Of course there is nothing wrong with fantasy and imagination. In fact it should be encouraged. But my only comment was to his saying that reality is boring, or "fairly uninteresting". And that comment was in response to me talking about how people are disengaging from the world, walking around the lake, or on a beautiful trail through the woods, with their faces planted down on their screens in their hands, unaware of one damn thing going on around them. Why even bother going outside then, I wonder?

Certainly mythologies, fantasies and the like make the real world more interesting. But not if you never look up from your screen! Then that's just escapism, as opposed to a healthy escape. I'm talking something unhealthy, not moderation. Just like me spending time on the forum. If I did nothing but that all day, that would be unhealthy for me.

 

[Koldo]

Not usually. Jobs are often soul destroying bores, but unless you're stuck at home there's usually something interesting to do.

A typical day in Brazil goes like this: You work 8 hours per day from monday to friday, plus 8 hours of sleep, plus 2 hours commute, plus 1 hour for lunch... Which leaves essentially 5 hours per day... Out of which, you need to spend time with shower, ironing clothes, brushing your teeth, shaving your beard, and so on and on...

There isn't even a lot of time to do something really all that interesting.... Nor money for most people.

 

[Windwalker]

What does it mean to forget how to live? Is there a specific way to live?

In general, yes. Your own body and mind and emotions will let you know at some point if you're out of whack. It's all about balanced living. For instance, all work and no play, is not healthy. Obsessing over one thing all day and doing nothing but that is not healthy, and so forth. The "specifics" of how you learn to manage that will need to be individual, but of course there are common sense guidelines, such as proper diet, sleep, exercise, social activities, and so forth. The "human operating system" does hove some pretty common requirements.

I genuinely find that to be a secondary concern. The issue is whether it is particularly unhealthy with no significant benefit.

I don't understand. If something is unhealthy, that's generally not a good thing. Eventually that takes its toll.

What if it was not how we were evolved by nature to live? Should nature dictate how we live?

Uh, yes. Very much so. It already does, like it or not. Nature has a massive impact on what we can and cannot do, or should or should not do.

For instance, breathing underwater. That's a pretty immediate indication that we should not being doing that when we start gasping for air in order to not die. But others things, like eating unhealthy foods, bad eating practices, and so forth, our bodies will more slowly react to that, as opposed to putting water in our lungs. It just takes longer to kill us. But the effects are there, in the whole system because the body was not designed by nature to be massively overweight. Other systems will begin to fail.

This basic principle applies across the board to nearly everything in life, including emotional needs, social needs, and psychological needs. I would even add to this spiritual needs as well.

But of course, we can do things that we weren't designed to do, if we practice moderation with them. But if we don't learn to balance things out, to treat our natural systems with the priority, then we're just asking for things to fail. Escaping behind a computer screen and never looking up from it, is not a good idea.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

A typical day in Brazil goes like this: You work 8 hours per day from monday to friday, plus 8 hours of sleep, plus 2 hours commute, plus 1 hour for lunch... Which leaves essentially 5 hours per day... Out of which, you need to spend time with shower, ironing clothes, brushing your teeth, shaving your beard, and so on and on...

There isn't even a lot of time to do something really all that interesting.... Nor money for most people.

That's about like American life. There's still time for art, reading amd things like that. And the software time is time you could spend with friends or family or something interesting.

 

[RestlessSoul]

A typical day in Brazil goes like this: You work 8 hours per day from monday to friday, plus 8 hours of sleep, plus 2 hours commute, plus 1 hour for lunch... Which leaves essentially 5 hours per day... Out of which, you need to spend time with shower, ironing clothes, brushing your teeth, shaving your beard, and so on and on...

There isn't even a lot of time to do something really all that interesting.... Nor money for most people.

Don’t you ever sit under a tree, or look up at the sky?

 

[Koldo]

Don’t you ever sit under a tree, or look up at the sky?

Sometimes, yes. I generally find that to be uninteresting though.

 

[Koldo]

That's about like American life. There's still time for art, reading amd things like that. And the software time is time you could spend with friends or family or something interesting.

I generally watch movies or series with my family... so there is still software involved.

 

[Koldo]

In general, yes. Your own body and mind and emotions will let you know at some point if you're out of whack. It's all about balanced living. For instance, all work and no play, is not healthy. Obsessing over one thing all day and doing nothing but that is not healthy, and so forth. The "specifics" of how you learn to manage that will need to be individual, but of course there are common sense guidelines, such as proper diet, sleep, exercise, social activities, and so forth. The "human operating system" does hove some pretty common requirements.

What if you are not doing what is proper to your body though? There seems to be a certain value judgment happening here...

I don't understand. If something is unhealthy, that's generally not a good thing. Eventually that takes its toll.

It all comes down to how you are understanding what counts as healthy. For many people, eating a Big Mac is unhealthy and yet fills one's life with pleasure.

Uh, yes. Very much so. It already does, like it or not. Nature has a massive impact on what we can and cannot do, or should or should not do.

For instance, breathing underwater. That's a pretty immediate indication that we should not being doing that when we start gasping for air in order to not die. But others things, like eating unhealthy foods, bad eating practices, and so forth, our bodies will more slowly react to that, as opposed to putting water in our lungs. It just takes longer to kill us. But the effects are there, in the whole system because the body was not designed by nature to be massively overweight. Other systems will begin to fail.

This basic principle applies across the board to nearly everything in life, including emotional needs, social needs, and psychological needs. I would even add to this spiritual needs as well.

But of course, we can do things that we weren't designed to do, if we practice moderation with them. But if we don't learn to balance things out, to treat our natural systems with the priority, then we're just asking for things to fail. Escaping behind a computer screen and never looking up from it, is not a good idea.

What if things do fail?
We are all going to die either way. Might as well do that which you prefer, one only needs to be aware of the consequences.

 

[Twilight Hue]

A typical day in Brazil goes like this: You work 8 hours per day from monday to friday, plus 8 hours of sleep, plus 2 hours commute, plus 1 hour for lunch... Which leaves essentially 5 hours per day... Out of which, you need to spend time with shower, ironing clothes, brushing your teeth, shaving your beard, and so on and on...

There isn't even a lot of time to do something really all that interesting.... Nor money for most people.

I so much wish the work week is shortened. I'm fortunate enough to have a four day work week but with a catch. I work ten hour days so it's still 40 hours a week, but I find the extra 2 hours worth it for the extra day.

 

[Windwalker]

What if you are not doing what is proper to your body though? There seems to be a certain value judgment happening here...

I answered that question before you asked it. "Your own body and mind and emotions will let you know at some point". When things start falling apart, that's a good indication something is wrong. Isn't it?

It all comes down to how you are understanding what counts as healthy. For many people, eating a Big Mac is unhealthy and yet fills one's life with pleasure.

As I said, in moderation we can tolerate certain unhealthy things, like alcohol consumption. In excess, it will take its toll. Same thing with eating Big Macs. Do that every day for three months, and then check and see if your body is still okay with that. Chances are pretty good, you'll have put on excessive weight.

If you're young enough, you might be able to get away with it longer. But do it long enough, and then things like your arteries will begin to weigh in on that practice. Don't listen even then, and your fate may be sealed.

What if things do fail?

They you are lucky, or still young enough to get away with it.

We are all going to die either way. Might as well do that which you prefer, one only needs to be aware of the consequences.

While we're all going to die, living a healthy life is better than dealing with a lack of vitality, a clouded mind, ruined relationships, general depression, and all of those others things that are the price we pay for living life out of balance, or for unhealthy lifestyles. The real question is, which do you prefer? How would you prefer to live before you die?

If you just want to get it over with sooner, then there are plenty of unhealthy options to speed that along. But, to add my value judgement on this one point alone, what a waste that is.

 

[Koldo]

I answered that question before you asked it. "Your own body and mind and emotions will let you know at some point". When things start falling apart, that's a good indication something is wrong. Isn't it?

As I said, in moderation we can tolerate certain unhealthy things, like alcohol consumption. In excess, it will take its toll. Same thing with eating Big Macs. Do that every day for three months, and then check and see if your body is still okay with that. Chances are pretty good, you'll have put on excessive weight.

If you're young enough, you might be able to get away with it longer. But do it long enough, and then things like your arteries will begin to weigh in on that practice. Don't listen even then, and your fate may be sealed.

They you are lucky, or still young enough to get away with it.

While we're all going to die, living a healthy life is better than dealing with a lack of vitality, a clouded mind, ruined relationships, general depression, and all of those others things that are the price we pay for living life out of balance, or for unhealthy lifestyles. The real question is, which do you prefer? How would you prefer to live before you die?

If you just want to get it over with sooner, then there are plenty of unhealthy options to speed that along. But, to add my value judgement on this one point alone, what a waste that is.

Let me sum up my perspective this way: If what you find fulfilling in your life involves doing unhealthy things, you might as well go ahead and do it as long as you understand what you are getting into. It is better (and this is my value judgment) to live a fulfilling and meaningful life, even if short, than a healthy and long life.

 

[Koldo]

Of course there is nothing wrong with fantasy and imagination. In fact it should be encouraged. But my only comment was to his saying that reality is boring, or "fairly uninteresting". And that comment was in response to me talking about how people are disengaging from the world, walking around the lake, or on a beautiful trail through the woods, with their faces planted down on their screens in their hands, unaware of one damn thing going on around them. Why even bother going outside then, I wonder?

Health and/or pics.
In essence, those guys are doing something they don't really want to do...

 

[Callisto]

Cursive isn’t taught anymore? It was when I was in elementary. It’s pretty easy, just some lines connecting the letters with a few weird shaped letters like S and, that’s the only one I can think of.

I don’t like how kids are doing everything on the computer these days. There should be moderation.

I'm on a genealogy forum and it never ceases to amaze when someone asks for help reading a document written in cursive. Much of the time, it's not illegible or an older style of cursive but crisp, mid-to-late 20th-century material in neat penmanship. As a kid, I had a teacher who gave the best answer to "why do I have to learn this stuff? I'm never going to use it!". ("It" being whichever subject the kid was struggling with.) They said it wasn't just learning the subject, the real benefit was that we were developing our brains. That we use different parts of our brain when learning something, our brains change as we learn something new. So grades were only so important, a person who gave their best but got a C was ahead of someone who got a C because they didn't even try. Even if a person forgot every fact of a subject later on, they still had the benefit and the ability to work through other things. As someone mentioned, back in the day you weren't allowed calculators. Even if the answer was wrong, a teacher could see whether you had some understanding of what needed to be done to sort out the problem and where you miscalculated.

Relying solely on a keyboard to learn the alphabet and type out written words could be problematic; accumulating evidence suggests that not learning cursive handwriting may hinder the brain's optimum potential to learn and remember...​

​

Data analysis showed that cursive handwriting primed the brain for learning by synchronizing brain waves in the theta rhythm range (4-7 Hz) and stimulating more electrical activity in the brain's parietal lobe and central regions. "Existing literature suggests that such oscillatory neuronal activity in these particular brain areas is important for memory and for the encoding of new information and, therefore, provides the brain with optimal conditions for learning,"

- Psychology Today​

The problem I see with skills and subjects being dropped is that they're not being replaced with anything that compensates for the mental development those dropped subjects provided. As a comparison, gym class wasn't taught in schools until the late 1800s and originated in urban areas. Kids weren't as physically active as previous generations when they either had lots of physical chores (manual tasks slowly replaced by innovations) and had to work on family farms, or simply had to walk great distances to get to and from school. Today's kids are more sedentary than ever before but we're not compensating for that so now we have widespread childhood obesity (no pun intended) and children with things like Type 2 Diabetes... Type 2 used to be called Adult-Onset Diabetes but now thousands of kids have it.

We're raising generations that will largely be incapable of doing anything without being plugged into something that does the work for them. "When the zombie apocalypse happens", it wouldn't surprise me that the survival of the fittest will be a lot of older persons who learned skills before the digital era and know how to use a can opener.

 

[Callisto]

Cursive isn’t taught anymore? It was when I was in elementary. It’s pretty easy, just some lines connecting the letters with a few weird shaped letters like S and, that’s the only one I can think of.

I don’t like how kids are doing everything on the computer these days. There should be moderation.

Personally, I think children should be limited across all devices. Obviously, they do need to learn how to use these items but no, they shouldn't be on the internet, social media, video games (and I'm a gamer) to the extent they are. I think schooling should be more analog and no one under the age of consent should be on social media. You know it's all unhealthy when someone like Bill Gates raised his own kids largely tech-free.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Personally, I think children should be limited across all devices. Obviously, they do need to learn how to use these items but no, they shouldn't be on the internet, social media, video games (and I'm a gamer) to the extent they are. I think schooling should be more analog and no one under the age of consent should be on social media. You know it's all unhealthy when someone like Bill Gates raised his own kids largely tech-free.

I don't know about "no one under the age of consent" - personally the internet likely saved my life. I wouldn't be me if I didn't have the internet in my life, I never would've made friends because I had trouble making friends in real life. It did bring on an addiction to the internet, that I've since worked on and mastered. I don't think I consider it an addiction anymore because it isn't ruining my life.

I think "Speech" class should be mandatory. It teaches proper social skills and probably influences the desire to socialize.

 

[Windwalker]

Let me sum up my perspective this way: If what you find fulfilling in your life involves doing unhealthy things, you might as well go ahead and do it as long as you understand what you are getting into. It is better (and this is my value judgment) to live a fulfilling and meaningful life, even if short, than a healthy and long life.

So would you think that smoking 3 packs of cigarettes, drinking a pint of whisky, and gorging on french fries and a Big Mac every day qualifies as a fulfilling and meaningful life? I'm not talking about occasional indulgences. As I clearly stated, moderation is fine. I'm talking about living an unhealthy lifestyle. Does that sound like a recipe of a 'fulfilling and meaningful life' to you, as you put it?

So, burying your face in a computer screen, never interacting with other humans, never getting exercise, never getting out into nature, never doing anything that the body requires to be healthy, you define as a 'fulfilling and meaningful life'? Color me skeptical in the extreme.