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Changing Races , Changing Religions?

gsa

Well-Known Member
Your racial ancestory has no choice involved. Religion can be chosen. Pretty big difference.

But you don't actually have a racial ancestry. You have an ancestry, including an ethnic ancestry that is also a social construct of sorts, but race is a construct wholly lacking any fixed or coherent definition. What are the races of man? How are fairly insulated groups (like Jews) not regarded as a race in some times and places, but regarded as one in others?


Because, IMHO, no one can change race. They can certainly change cultures or religions but to change one's race from white to black is simply impossible.

But why? I mean I assume you agree that race is a social construct. But why is it such an essentialist one that ensnares us all, regardless of how we want to identify?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
But you don't actually have a racial ancestry. You have an ancestry, including an ethnic ancestry that is also a social construct of sorts, but race is a construct wholly lacking any fixed or coherent definition. What are the races of man? How are fairly insulated groups (like Jews) not regarded as a race in some times and places, but regarded as one in others?
I agree that classifications are a created thing based on many factors. But my point was only that you can't choose your past ancestry. If your ancestry falls in the category that standard American classification says is white you can not claim that you are black under the standard American classification system.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
But you don't actually have a racial ancestry. You have an ancestry, including an ethnic ancestry that is also a social construct of sorts, but race is a construct wholly lacking any fixed or coherent definition. What are the races of man? How are fairly insulated groups (like Jews) not regarded as a race in some times and places, but regarded as one in others?




But why? I mean I assume you agree that race is a social construct. But why is it such an essentialist one that ensnares us all, regardless of how we want to identify?
Race is determined genetically. Skin color is based on chromosomal factors that relegate how much melanin we have in our skin cells. There is NO changing that. A person born with red hair may dye it but they cannot without dye have blond hair.
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
People are still quite obsessed with the idea that race is a biological reality, as the responses to this thread aptly demonstrate. Race is, in fact, something that must be performed, especially for those of us who can legitimately lay claim to more than one. But that's actually all of us, since racial categories are constructed differently around the world. Want to change your race? It's easy, just hop on a plane. Within hours you can go from being a "Fon" to being a "Black", from a "Mapuche" to being a "Latino", from "white" to an "Americano", from "Korean" to "Chinois". Magic!
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
People are still quite obsessed with the idea that race is a biological reality, as the responses to this thread aptly demonstrate. Race is, in fact, something that must be performed, especially for those of us who can legitimately lay claim to more than one. But that's actually all of us, since racial categories are constructed differently around the world. Want to change your race? It's easy, just hop on a plane. Within hours you can go from being a "Fon" to being a "Black", from a "Mapuche" to being a "Latino", from "white" to an "Americano", from "Korean" to "Chinois". Magic!
While that is true to some degree, the fact remains that one cannot change one's skin color by snapping thier fingers or getting on a plane. If you are black, you are black. You would then carry, potentially, the genetic markers for sickle cell, tendenies toward HTN and T2D and other things. If you are white, you cannot instantly become black with the skin color therein implied. If I were to take your blood and check genetic markers, I would be able to deduce what race you are and one cannot change that.
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
While that is true to some degree, the fact remains that one cannot change one's skin color by snapping thier fingers or getting on a plane. If you are black, you are black. You would then carry, potentially, the genetic markers for sickle cell, tendenies toward HTN and T2D and other things. If you are white, you cannot instantly become black with the skin color therein implied. If I were to take your blood and check genetic markers, I would be able to deduce what race you are and one cannot change that.
All of this except for the first sentence is indicative of deficiencies in your education. Yes, skin pigmentation is the result of a couple of alleles inherited from your parents, and likely won't change greatly in your lifetime. No, it's not necessarily connected to anything else. We've known this for over fifty years now. Alleles travel in pairs, not races. And while you might be able to guess what race the average American in a corner store would identify you as from your blood, that's because we have this obsession with skin color as a marker of race, not because our DNA looks completely different.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
All of this except for the first sentence is indicative of deficiencies in your education. Yes, skin pigmentation is the result of a couple of alleles inherited from your parents, and likely won't change greatly in your lifetime. No, it's not necessarily connected to anything else. We've known this for over fifty years now. Alleles travel in pairs, not races. And while you might be able to guess what race the average American in a corner store would identify you as from your blood, that's because we have this obsession with skin color as a marker of race, not because our DNA looks completely different.
Its always refreshing when someone points out how uneducated I am. I want to thank you for that.

As for genetics and race, I am very aware of alleles. My point was that certain characteristics are genetic for race. Pearce, et.al. (2004) cites Risch, et.al. (2002) who state that there are five major racial groups and that things like hair color, skin color, and the shape of noses are some of the significant differences in race. Pearce, et.al., go on to discuss health issues that are unique to various racial groups. For example, sickle cell with Blacks, Tay Sachs with Middle Eastern Jews and so on. I hope this clears up my point for you.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
While that is true to some degree, the fact remains that one cannot change one's skin color by snapping thier fingers or getting on a plane. If you are black, you are black. You would then carry, potentially, the genetic markers for sickle cell, tendenies toward HTN and T2D and other things. If you are white, you cannot instantly become black with the skin color therein implied. If I were to take your blood and check genetic markers, I would be able to deduce what race you are and one cannot change that.
''White'', and ''black'', are colors, lol. Are fair Africans, ''white"? You aren't using labels that mean anything besides to a segment of the population that is wildly one ''color'', hence, it has very little actual meaning in reality. Are all fairish people ''white''?
Btw, genetic markers do not necessarily match a color, neither do more obvious things like physical morphology. I think you mean ''european'', but are using a term 'white'. doesn't work that way in reality
 
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Curious George

Veteran Member
While that is true to some degree, the fact remains that one cannot change one's skin color by snapping thier fingers or getting on a plane. If you are black, you are black. You would then carry, potentially, the genetic markers for sickle cell, tendenies toward HTN and T2D and other things. If you are white, you cannot instantly become black with the skin color therein implied. If I were to take your blood and check genetic markers, I would be able to deduce what race you are and one cannot change that.
Is not the same true of sex change?
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
Since race doesn't actually exist I guess we don't need to worry about that racism problem anymore.
Race absolutely exists. It just isn't a biological reality; racial categorizations vary by culture, and have their origin in culture. While they are (sometimes) built off of real physical characteristics, the distinctions themselves are arbitrary, and occasioned by social and political needs rather than scientific veracity.
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
Its always refreshing when someone points out how uneducated I am. I want to thank you for that.

As for genetics and race, I am very aware of alleles. My point was that certain characteristics are genetic for race. Pearce, et.al. (2004) cites Risch, et.al. (2002) who state that there are five major racial groups and that things like hair color, skin color, and the shape of noses are some of the significant differences in race. Pearce, et.al., go on to discuss health issues that are unique to various racial groups. For example, sickle cell with Blacks, Tay Sachs with Middle Eastern Jews and so on. I hope this clears up my point for you.
Not only is Joseph Pearce not a scientist, he literally spent time in jail for inciting racial violence. Miraculous conversion or no, no sensible person would consider him an unbiased source.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Not only is Joseph Pearce not a scientist, he literally spent time in jail for inciting racial violence. Miraculous conversion or no, no sensible person would consider him an unbiased source.
I used one reference only. I knew nothing of the author. And that said, I am done with people here who can't be polite.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
It's still easy to spot a transgender despite advancements in technology.
I've come to realize that those who are the most confident and sure of themselves in their ability to tell are typically the most confused about it and most likely to refer to as a cisgendered person by the wrong sex when they think they can tell who is who. I have even passed as female a few times in full-male clothing. One job I held, where I was required to wear a unisex polo shirt, it was common for someone to refer to me as female, even though I was not particularly trying to pass as female.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
There has been much ado about Rachel Dolezal, a woman who tried to pass as black or African-American, and became the head of the Spokane NAACP before resigning when her parents revealed she was of overwhelmingly European heritage.

But setting aside her specific case, why is it hard to imagine people switching their racial affiliation when they commonly switch religious or "tribal" affiliations all the time? People who become Jews, for example, cut off ties not only to their ancestral religion, but also their ancestral heritage. Is it really that different to change one's racial affiliation?
It is hard to put specific cases aside because they provide context. But, I imagine we could come with some contrived circumstances that make it okay. But I will try to proceed by contrasting the idea of changing racial categories with changing other categories.

One of the most common contrasts which are brought up are change of race vs. Change of sex. Change of sex is usually pursued by those who identify as the opposite sex. This is most often described as a life long identification combined with a feeling that one is in the wrong body. As has been pointed out race is a social construct. This in itself is a hotly debated subject, but whichever side one falls on the discussion, we can agree that just because something is a social construct does not mean that it is not real, perceived, and has impact. While we could point to gender identity as a social construct, this too has differences from race as a construct. And, while changing gender constructs could in theory diminish the want for sex change, this construct is rooted in differences of masculinity and femininity assigned by society. Racial differences, by contrast are almost strictly phenotypic. While we have assorted stereotypes in our society, most stereotypes are negative. And the stereotypes which are not negative are acceptable for other races to possess. Given all of this it is hard to imagine someone since their very early ages, believing they were of the wrong race.

Religious identification is different too. Religious affiliation is based on beliefs. Nothing in racial categorization is dependent on beliefs.

Tribal affiliation too differs. Tribal affiliation is based in the group with whom you associate and of whom you are considered a part. We can find instances of tribes taking in outsiders the outsider and subsequent generations becoming part of that tribe. However, there is no tribal affiliation with racial categorization. Race is based on phenotypic expression.

Given this, one is left to wonder why another would change race. The answer seems to be almost exclusively deception. In other words, to find acceptance based on appropriating historical achievement and adversity and creating the illusion of shared experience. For, however right or wrong this has become the significance of race. Many see race as an identifier of experiences common to those whom possess certain phenotypic attributes. What purpose other than for deception would one want to have this association?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
People are still quite obsessed with the idea that race is a biological reality, as the responses to this thread aptly demonstrate. Race is, in fact, something that must be performed, especially for those of us who can legitimately lay claim to more than one. But that's actually all of us, since racial categories are constructed differently around the world. Want to change your race? It's easy, just hop on a plane. Within hours you can go from being a "Fon" to being a "Black", from a "Mapuche" to being a "Latino", from "white" to an "Americano", from "Korean" to "Chinois". Magic!
That's the social construct aspect of it. There's biological race and you cannot change that. The woman in the OP is either mentally ill or a con artist. She is not black and never will be.

By the way, "black", "white", etc. are social constructs and don't exist biologically, although they have basic common sense correalations (i.e. "black people" are people of Sub-Saharan African ancestry and "white people" are people of European ancestry).. A West African is not the same race as an East African, despite them having the same skin tone. Race is more refined than that. What we think of as ethnicities are closer to what races are. Polynesians are closer to being a race, for example.
 
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Curious George

Veteran Member
Honestly speaking I am not sure what you are really asking here? Is sex change genetic? I really and truly don;t know. I think in some cases, maybe but that is purely opinion and not based on anything.
Sex change is not genetic. I would likely find that your nephew has xx chromosomes unless he had some chromosomal abnormality. This is in fact, much easier to tell than "race" as skin tone consists of at least 30 different genes on different chromosomes, that doesn't even touch on other phenotypic attributes associated with race. Bottom line is that it would be very hard to categorize "race" by looking at one's DNA. (Not impossible mind you, but it would be likely that you would come out with a very different racial categorization than the one's different societies have)
 
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