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Changing the words in Roald Dahl's book to remove offence strikes me as...

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
...contrary to his intention. I grew up on Dahl's books, but I'll admit that there are plenty of other books I grew up with that I struggle with these days due to their out of date stories. Dahl, however, was pretty deliberately trying to be somewhat edgy. He deliberately used provocative words to capture his audience. So I just wonder whether we are missing the point a little in editing his works to make it 'more acceptable'.

Revolting Rhymes was not designed to be acceptable, even in the language of it's day.

Anyway, interested in thoughts across the spectrum.

Critics reject changes to Roald Dahl books as censorship - ABC News (go.com)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
...contrary to his intention. I grew up on Dahl's books, but I'll admit that there are plenty of other books I grew up with that I struggle with these days due to their out of date stories. Dahl, however, was pretty deliberately trying to be somewhat edgy. He deliberately used provocative words to capture his audience. So I just wonder whether we are missing the point a little in editing his works to make it 'more acceptable'.

Revolting Rhymes was not designed to be acceptable, even in the language of it's day.

Anyway, interested in thoughts across the spectrum.

Critics reject changes to Roald Dahl books as censorship - ABC News (go.com)
It seems rather foolish to me. A bit over ten years ago the same thing happened to Huckleberry Finn:

Furore over 'censored' edition of Huckleberry Finn

'Twain scholar Alan Gribben says the use of the word "******" had prompted many US schools to stop teaching the classic.

In his edition, Professor Gribben replaces the word with "slave" and also changes "injun" to "Indian".'


'
"The book is an anti-racist book and to change the language changes the power of the book," said Cindy Lovell, executive director of The Mark Twain Boyhood Home and Museum in Hannibal, Missouri.

"He wrote to make us squirm and to poke us with a sharp stick. That was the purpose," she told Reuters news agency.'

As you said, give an explanatory warning note and let readers decide for themselves.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
...contrary to his intention. I grew up on Dahl's books, but I'll admit that there are plenty of other books I grew up with that I struggle with these days due to their out of date stories. Dahl, however, was pretty deliberately trying to be somewhat edgy. He deliberately used provocative words to capture his audience. So I just wonder whether we are missing the point a little in editing his works to make it 'more acceptable'.

Revolting Rhymes was not designed to be acceptable, even in the language of it's day.

Anyway, interested in thoughts across the spectrum.

Critics reject changes to Roald Dahl books as censorship - ABC News (go.com)
I feel the same way about the works of Mark Twain.

There's a whole lot of "n" words involved, but it's also a window into that era that for better or for worse , ought to be preserved.

History and literature gives us perspective and can gauge on how far or how regressed we've become and makes us appreciative when we do end up on a better end.

Censorship is only whitewashing that 'ole fence again.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
I believe the changes made to classic literature, over the past few decades, was a political warmup, with the long term goals of revisionist history and full scale censorship. The first changes were justified, by the subjective standards of Left wing PC. These words are offensive. This led to revisionist history; party reinforcing their own fairy tales, and then to full scale censorship, as was witnessed on Twitter before the 2020 election.

The scam started out innocent enough, under the guise of not hurting the feelings of Left wing constituents. This morphed into censorship of an entire political party, because what the Right believed, which is classic thinking, was programmed to hurt the feelings of Lefties. Censored was justified; Pavlov response.

Does anyone on the Left still think the Twitter censorship was justified, based on how you were conditioned to feel about the evil Right? The Left plays long ball and often sets the ground work, early, in ways that slowly move the boundaries of common sense. Often one does to see the glacial damage until, you are told this is now the new norm.

It is better to treat people as healthy adults and not as neurotic children paralyzed by words. It is better to expose and desensitize young and older people, so they can have an adult discussion about classical literature, which gives everyone a glimpse history. This allows us to see where we came from, and draw a line to the present. Revisionist history and censorship tries to change the past and therefore the change slope of the curve, in an attempt to hide data that would undermine their scam.

For example, in Huckleberry Finn, the main character, Huck did say the N-word, often. However, his black friend was not bothered by it. The N-word was not always defined as the modern Left tries to define it, to create division. Adding new definitions to words, and then having Google search come up with the new definition instead of the one used 100 time more often, was part of the scam. This will create conflict between two people who both innocently assume two different definitions.

Word games and censorship are also designed to act like prohibitions, to create temptation, which will then lead to obsessed over reactions to help reinforce the division. I believe the rank and file Left was unaware how they were being used as lab rats, by those in power, where more power was their end game.

I remember when reading Huckleberry Finn, with the modern slang in mind, I wondered why that large black man took it and did not get mad at Huckleberry or even threaten him, like one would expect in modern times. The reason was the Left had not yet poisoned the well when the book was written.

The Latin word for black is Niger; pronounced with a long I like the word kite. It was mispronounced with a short i, like the work kit, by those who were not educated in Latin. Niger originally was short for black man, with black man not offensive even today.

The modern slang, with the short i and double NN in the middle, was originally made fun of by scholars versus hay seeds. Huckleberry was turned into a bigot due to Left wing word games, since in the book his black man friend saw no harm, but enjoyed accompanying Huck on his adventures. This is the dark side of revisionist history, nearing its end game.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
There's no need to change the text of any book imo. If subsequent generations have different values, they'll interpret the text differently, and in some cases the writing will not endure; but who are we protecting here, and from whom? The reader from the writer? Most writers would be flattered by the idea that they could have that much of an impact on their readers.

I suppose Roald Dahl was writing for children, but he doesn't seem to have been particularly sentimental about childhood innocence. I think kids love his stories because he is an adult writer who addresses children as equals; which means equally as flawed as adults. The wickedness about Dahl is a big part of his appeal.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
...contrary to his intention. I grew up on Dahl's books, but I'll admit that there are plenty of other books I grew up with that I struggle with these days due to their out of date stories. Dahl, however, was pretty deliberately trying to be somewhat edgy. He deliberately used provocative words to capture his audience. So I just wonder whether we are missing the point a little in editing his works to make it 'more acceptable'.

Revolting Rhymes was not designed to be acceptable, even in the language of it's day.

Anyway, interested in thoughts across the spectrum.

Critics reject changes to Roald Dahl books as censorship - ABC News (go.com)

I hadn't heard there that anyone had any problems with any of his books. I recall some hullabaloo over Mark Twain's works, such as Huckleberry Finn, as well as a few others here and there. I have to wonder, though: Has there been any great public clamor or massive protest about this? Have we seen large numbers of people marching in the streets demanding "Change these books"?

If it's touted as purely a business decision, is there any evidence that such decisions increase a company's profit margin?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
There's no need to change the text of any book imo.
No need, yes, but is it always wrong? Example #1: Germany had a spelling reform recently (historically recently in '96). Newly printed versions of classics had the new spelling. It doesn't change the meaning and it doesn't give wrong impressions to young readers. #2: Language changes. Some words have changed meaning, others have fallen out of fashion all together. It can help the comprehension to replace obsolete words with modern ones though I'd prefer an explaining footnote
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe the changes made to classic literature, over the past few decades, was a political warmup, with the long term goals of revisionist history and full scale censorship. The first changes were justified, by the subjective standards of Left wing PC. These words are offensive. This led to revisionist history; party reinforcing their own fairy tales, and then to full scale censorship, as was witnessed on Twitter before the 2020 election.

The scam started out innocent enough, under the guise of not hurting the feelings of Left wing constituents. This morphed into censorship of an entire political party, because what the Right believed, which is classic thinking, was programmed to hurt the feelings of Lefties. Censored was justified; Pavlov response.

Does anyone on the Left still think the Twitter censorship was justified, based on how you were conditioned to feel about the evil Right? The Left plays long ball and often sets the ground work, early, in ways that slowly move the boundaries of common sense. Often one does to see the glacial damage until, you are told this is now the new norm.

It is better to treat people as healthy adults and not as neurotic children paralyzed by words. It is better to expose and desensitize young and older people, so they can have an adult discussion about classical literature, which gives everyone a glimpse history. This allows us to see where we came from, and draw a line to the present. Revisionist history and censorship tries to change the past and therefore the change slope of the curve, in an attempt to hide data that would undermine their scam.

For example, in Huckleberry Finn, the main character, Huck did say the N-word, often. However, his black friend was not bothered by it. The N-word was not always defined as the modern Left tries to define it, to create division. Adding new definitions to words, and then having Google search come up with the new definition instead of the one used 100 time more often, was part of the scam. This will create conflict between two people who both innocently assume two different definitions.

Word games and censorship are also designed to act like prohibitions, to create temptation, which will then lead to obsessed over reactions to help reinforce the division. I believe the rank and file Left was unaware how they were being used as lab rats, by those in power, where more power was their end game.

I remember when reading Huckleberry Finn, with the modern slang in mind, I wondered why that large black man took it and did not get mad at Huckleberry or even threaten him, like one would expect in modern times. The reason was the Left had not yet poisoned the well when the book was written.

The Latin word for black is Niger; pronounced with a long I like the word kite. It was mispronounced with a short i, like the work kit, by those who were not educated in Latin. Niger originally was short for black man, with black man not offensive even today.

The modern slang, with the short i and double NN in the middle, was originally made fun of by scholars versus hay seeds. Huckleberry was turned into a bigot due to Left wing word games, since in the book his black man friend saw no harm, but enjoyed accompanying Huck on his adventures. This is the dark side of revisionist history, nearing its end game.

Erm...you might have wandered a little from the path of the OP here. If you honestly see everything as a partisan political conspiracy, you are more part of the problem than the solution, imho.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
No need, yes, but is it always wrong? Example #1: Germany had a spelling reform recently (historically recently in '96). Newly printed versions of classics had the new spelling. It doesn't change the meaning and it doesn't give wrong impressions to young readers. #2: Language changes. Some words have changed meaning, others have fallen out of fashion all together. It can help the comprehension to replace obsolete words with modern ones though I'd prefer an explaining footnote

No, I don't think it's neccessarily, or always wrong. The context definitely matters.
What are your thoughts in this particular context?
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
No need, yes, but is it always wrong? Example #1: Germany had a spelling reform recently (historically recently in '96). Newly printed versions of classics had the new spelling. It doesn't change the meaning and it doesn't give wrong impressions to young readers. #2: Language changes. Some words have changed meaning, others have fallen out of fashion all together. It can help the comprehension to replace obsolete words with modern ones though I'd prefer an explaining footnote


True, language does change. So does the culture in which the writing first appeared. And then also, grammar and spelling was often more fluid in the past. So informed readers, and educators, have to be sensitive to that.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
I believe the changes made to classic literature, over the past few decades, was a political warmup, with the long term goals of revisionist history and full scale censorship. The first changes were justified, by the subjective standards of Left wing PC. These words are offensive. This led to revisionist history; party reinforcing their own fairy tales, and then to full scale censorship, as was witnessed on Twitter before the 2020 election.

The scam started out innocent enough, under the guise of not hurting the feelings of Left wing constituents. This morphed into censorship of an entire political party, because what the Right believed, which is classic thinking, was programmed to hurt the feelings of Lefties. Censored was justified; Pavlov response.

Does anyone on the Left still think the Twitter censorship was justified, based on how you were conditioned to feel about the evil Right? The Left plays long ball and often sets the ground work, early, in ways that slowly move the boundaries of common sense. Often one does to see the glacial damage until, you are told this is now the new norm.

It is better to treat people as healthy adults and not as neurotic children paralyzed by words. It is better to expose and desensitize young and older people, so they can have an adult discussion about classical literature, which gives everyone a glimpse history. This allows us to see where we came from, and draw a line to the present. Revisionist history and censorship tries to change the past and therefore the change slope of the curve, in an attempt to hide data that would undermine their scam.

For example, in Huckleberry Finn, the main character, Huck did say the N-word, often. However, his black friend was not bothered by it. The N-word was not always defined as the modern Left tries to define it, to create division. Adding new definitions to words, and then having Google search come up with the new definition instead of the one used 100 time more often, was part of the scam. This will create conflict between two people who both innocently assume two different definitions.

Word games and censorship are also designed to act like prohibitions, to create temptation, which will then lead to obsessed over reactions to help reinforce the division. I believe the rank and file Left was unaware how they were being used as lab rats, by those in power, where more power was their end game.

I remember when reading Huckleberry Finn, with the modern slang in mind, I wondered why that large black man took it and did not get mad at Huckleberry or even threaten him, like one would expect in modern times. The reason was the Left had not yet poisoned the well when the book was written.

The Latin word for black is Niger; pronounced with a long I like the word kite. It was mispronounced with a short i, like the work kit, by those who were not educated in Latin. Niger originally was short for black man, with black man not offensive even today.

The modern slang, with the short i and double NN in the middle, was originally made fun of by scholars versus hay seeds. Huckleberry was turned into a bigot due to Left wing word games, since in the book his black man friend saw no harm, but enjoyed accompanying Huck on his adventures. This is the dark side of revisionist history, nearing its end game.

tl:dr

But anyway, sure, let's pretend that conservative christians haven't been staunch advocates of censorship since forever.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
No, I don't think it's neccessarily, or always wrong. The context definitely matters.
What are your thoughts in this particular context?
As far as I have gathered, they are not because language had changed but because the sentiments of some adults have. Totally unnecessary.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
No need, yes, but is it always wrong? Example #1: Germany had a spelling reform recently (historically recently in '96). Newly printed versions of classics had the new spelling. It doesn't change the meaning and it doesn't give wrong impressions to young readers. #2: Language changes. Some words have changed meaning, others have fallen out of fashion all together. It can help the comprehension to replace obsolete words with modern ones though I'd prefer an explaining footnote

I'm open to those sorts of revisions. But from what I'm reading of the changes to Dahl's works, that's not why they were changed. They were changed because some terms or passages are offensive to modern sensibilities, ie, not PC.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I hadn't heard there that anyone had any problems with any of his books. I recall some hullabaloo over Mark Twain's works, such as Huckleberry Finn, as well as a few others here and there. I have to wonder, though: Has there been any great public clamor or massive protest about this? Have we seen large numbers of people marching in the streets demanding "Change these books"?

If it's touted as purely a business decision, is there any evidence that such decisions increase a company's profit margin?
This hadn't occurred to me, but could a printer and/or publisher be held accountable if someone claimed they were motivated to commit racist acts or murder based on reading Mark Twain? Even if claimants lost the cost of defending lawsuits in court can be very expensive. Even demand letters and threats to sue can cost a great deal to defendants, even if the lawsuits are without merit.

Frankly I think the editing of classic books is ineffective since there are plenty of old copies out there floating around. I think it better to just teach kids about the history of language and racism along with the stories.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
When I was learning piano, I bought a book of (simplified) pieces from West Side Story, one of my all time favorites. In one song, Maria describes herself as "pretty and witty and gay". Can you believe they had rewritten that to avoid the word "gay"? The change was quite substantial as they had to retain rhyme and meter.

Words fail me.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I heard some of the changes on NPR.
The prose was very pedestrian & dull.
Too many people are trying too hard
these days to enforce inoffensiveness.
Both liberals & conservatives are ganging
up against freedom of expression.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Anyway, interested in thoughts across the spectrum.

This is another early step in one of the most terrifying, society-ending slippery slopes I can imagine.

A piece of speech - written or otherwise - cannot be described as offensive. A person can CHOOSE to be offended, but that's different.

I have NEVER met or heard of a person I think is smart enough to determine what I can or cannot listen to!!!!!! This is total cow excrement!
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
This hadn't occurred to me, but could a printer and/or publisher be held accountable if someone claimed they were motivated to commit racist acts or murder based on reading Mark Twain? Even if claimants lost the cost of defending lawsuits in court can be very expensive. Even demand letters and threats to sue can cost a great deal to defendants, even if the lawsuits are without merit.

Frankly I think the editing of classic books is ineffective since there are plenty of old copies out there floating around. I think it better to just teach kids about the history of language and racism along with the stories.

I suppose anyone could try to sue, but whether it's successful depends on the judge. I don't see how it could succeed, unless the judge is a raving lunatic. I suppose we could rewrite all of history so it doesn't offend anyone.
 
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