Animore
Active Member
Here's what when I tried to ask a few questions to LDS members.
J (me)
Hello.
6:56 PM
LDS (them)
Hi Jacob! Welcome to Mormon.org. How can we help you?
6:56 PM
LDS
Hello
6:56 PM
J
I have a few questions about the Mormon faith.
6:57 PM
LDS
Ask away!
6:57 PM
j
Great.
So.
6:57 PM
You believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers.
LDS
Yes.
6:57 PM
J
Okay. Great. And you believe that Jesus is God.
6:58 PM
LDS
We believe that Jesus is a God now that he has been resurrected and glorified.
6:59 PM
We believe that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three separate beings.
J
Right. Now considering, obviously, blood lineage and all, wouldn't Lucifer also be God?
6:59 PM
LDS
So Jesus Christ was not always a God. He was the Son of God until he was resurrected and glorified. We believe in eternal progression. Lucifer was not able to progress to that stage. In fact, he was cast out of God's presence.
7:01 PM
J
Well, let's think here. We have God. The eternal, omniscient, omnipresent being. If God is eternal, then how could He become God? John describes His relationship with the Father as "with God, and was God." Notice the was there. How could He become God, if He was God?
7:02 PM
LDS
First, I want to ask you a question. If we have a rock-solid answer, what would that change in your life?
7:03 PM
J
If you had a rock solid answer, I'd leave. Maybe even consider joining the faith. But you need to answer the question first.
7:04 PM
While you're answering that, I'll ask another question. Do you believe the Bible is infallible?
7:09 PM
LDS
It was hard for a lot of people to understand those things at first. When Christ was on earth He established His church. Later on His doctrine was mingled with doctrines of man. Therefore a lot of misunderstandings arose. We know though that a restoration was needed to bring back the simple truths.
7:10 PM
LDS
Do you know what the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is?
7:10 PM
Also we believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly. That's the huge importance of the Book of Mormon, which goes right back to our question. Do you know what the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is?
But to answer your question completely, we know that God is the almighty and he sent his son Jesus Christ to redeem the world from sin. He was the only begotten of the Father and later progressed to becoming a God.
7:13 PM
J
I'll use context clues, and say your trying to "restore" the four books of the gospel to fruition. Yet, you have not answered my questions. However, I' guessing you're going to tryto lead me into a word trap here so I'll go and say it first-hand. If you plan to "restore" the Gospels, you will corrupt such things even more. Which wil lnot help.
7:13 PM
LDS
Our finite minds cannot comprehend the things of eternity.
7:13 PM
J
The Bible is full of contradictions and yet you do not even understand them.
7:13 PM
Oh what a cop-out.
"We cannot understand him."
LDS
That's the whole point. We do not understand why there are contridictions in the Bible. So a man named Joseph Smith read in James 1:5 that if we lack wisdom that we can ask God. He did and God appeared to him.
7:14 PM
J
Heard that one many a-time.
7:14 PM
It's just a cop-out. Didn't Jesus come so we could "know" God?
LDS
We can all ask God what is true and what we should do. If we have a sincere heart to act upon the response, He will answer us
7:14 PM
J
To think He woudld've told us about such things, that there would be a prohet that would make a brand new book.
7:15 PM
Answer you? I'd love to hear this.
LDS
I am not sure what your question is.
7:15 PM
LDS
Joseph Smith didn't make a new book, he translated an existing record into English so that we would be able to read it. It is another witness that there is truly a God and a Savior.
7:16 PM
J
Didn't He have an eternal throne? I'll ask you that.
7:16 PM
LDS
What Sister Fehlmann is true, but we cannot convince you of that and that is not our purpose. We are here to help you find this answer yourself.
7:16 PM
God? Absolutely he has an eternal throne.
J
Then one cannot become God.
7:17 PM
LDS
Jesus Christ is the Son of God, so after he finished His mission here on earth He went back to His Father, which is also our Father in Heaven. Do you believe that there is a God?
7:18 PM
J
I used to.
7:19 PM
Then I realized there was no evidence.
LDS
Humm.. why would you say that there is no evidence? Isn't everything around you an evidence that there must be at least a higher being?
7:20 PM
J
Are you using the "look st the trees and the stars!" argument? No, that's not evidence of God. That's evidence of trees and stars.
7:20 PM
LDS
Well, we cannot provide you solid physical evidence, but we do know that there is a God. A God that loves us and wants us to return home to him. The only way that you can know this as well is to ask God, just as Joseph Smith did and be willing to act on the impressions you receive.
7:21 PM
What are you expecting as an answer
J
I have asked Him. For many years. I waited for an answer. I searched for one. I looked into bout every popular religion there is. I was a very devout Christian until very recently when I realized I wasn't getting anything. God never revealed himself to me. I wanted something to help calm my nerves and meditate on at night.
7:23 PM
I'm not expecting answer. However, if there was an answer which was given, I would convert immediately.
LDS
Jacob, what made you want to speak with us today?
7:24 PM
J
I wanted to speak to you because I thought you had some answers to my questions, but instead you gave me "We couldn't understand."
7:25 PM
I'm not looking to believe. I'm looking for knowledge.
And I feel that religion is as noursihing to the intellect as a picture of air.
LDS
Something that one of the church leaders said is that faith is a conviction about something we believe. While this makes sense to us, believing people, it is often confusing for non-believers. What he mentions is that there are more ways to see than with our eyes, more ways to feel that with our hands, and more ways to hear than with our ears.
7:27 PM
I truly know that not everything that is true needs physical evidence.
LDS
I also know that what Shay says is true. Sometimes we also need to walk by faith, not only by facts
7:28 PM
J
If you don't have evidence, then you are living by an untesitfiable hypothesis. There are thousands of religions of the world.
7:29 PM
I'll ask you a question.
How can you know that your system of beliefs is the right one?
LDS
I don't really understand why that is a bad thing? To believe and know in a loving God that has a plan for us. Who wants us to return home to him so that we can be eternally happy here and in the eternities.
7:31 PM
LDS
Having faith in something is not having a perfect knowledge of something but to believe in something that we cannot see that is true. Just like love. You cannot see it but it is there
7:31 PM
LDS
To know what church is true, you ask God. Just like Joseph Smith. Just like Sister Fehlmann and I. There is no other way to know than through God.
7:32 PM
Again, that is an answer that we cannot give you. You need to search for that on your own.
J
But how do you know that that your God is there, out of all the others? Krishna, Bishnu, the great Ju Ju up in the mountain. There are many testimonies of an answered prayer in every religion.
7:33 PM
LDS
Well, you do your research and you ask God what is true.
7:34 PM
LDS
This is something that a prophet from ancient times said. Alma 32:27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.'' That's how I could come to know that God is there. By acting on the things I believed to be true, even though I wasn't quite sure.
7:34 PM
J
So by your own definition, we can know that a cult is true, because by killing themselves they are acting on what they think is true, even though they weren't quite sure.
7:35 PM
LDS
I think it must also be reasonable, killing is probably nothing God would like us to do
7:36 PM
LDS
It seems you will counter everything we say without acting on a single thing we've told you. There really is no other way of knowing what is true without asking God.There isn't anything else we can explain to you. We are sorry we couldn't help you further in your quest to find truth. We hope you have a great thanksgiving and enjoy your night.
7:37 PM
If you have any additional questions, please feel free to ask at any questions another time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So yeah, I basically got demolished, but I learned a few things. They used some pretty bogus arguments however. The reason I put this here is t ask any of you if you would use the same arguments for your religion (excluding obviously the things which are mutually exclusive to Mormonism. Thanks in advance.
J (me)
Hello.
6:56 PM
LDS (them)
Hi Jacob! Welcome to Mormon.org. How can we help you?
6:56 PM
LDS
Hello
6:56 PM
J
I have a few questions about the Mormon faith.
6:57 PM
LDS
Ask away!
6:57 PM
j
Great.
6:57 PM
You believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers.
LDS
Yes.
6:57 PM
J
Okay. Great. And you believe that Jesus is God.
6:58 PM
LDS
We believe that Jesus is a God now that he has been resurrected and glorified.
6:59 PM
We believe that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three separate beings.
J
Right. Now considering, obviously, blood lineage and all, wouldn't Lucifer also be God?
6:59 PM
LDS
So Jesus Christ was not always a God. He was the Son of God until he was resurrected and glorified. We believe in eternal progression. Lucifer was not able to progress to that stage. In fact, he was cast out of God's presence.
7:01 PM
J
Well, let's think here. We have God. The eternal, omniscient, omnipresent being. If God is eternal, then how could He become God? John describes His relationship with the Father as "with God, and was God." Notice the was there. How could He become God, if He was God?
7:02 PM
LDS
First, I want to ask you a question. If we have a rock-solid answer, what would that change in your life?
7:03 PM
J
If you had a rock solid answer, I'd leave. Maybe even consider joining the faith. But you need to answer the question first.
7:04 PM
While you're answering that, I'll ask another question. Do you believe the Bible is infallible?
7:09 PM
LDS
It was hard for a lot of people to understand those things at first. When Christ was on earth He established His church. Later on His doctrine was mingled with doctrines of man. Therefore a lot of misunderstandings arose. We know though that a restoration was needed to bring back the simple truths.
7:10 PM
LDS
Do you know what the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is?
7:10 PM
Also we believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly. That's the huge importance of the Book of Mormon, which goes right back to our question. Do you know what the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is?
But to answer your question completely, we know that God is the almighty and he sent his son Jesus Christ to redeem the world from sin. He was the only begotten of the Father and later progressed to becoming a God.
7:13 PM
J
I'll use context clues, and say your trying to "restore" the four books of the gospel to fruition. Yet, you have not answered my questions. However, I' guessing you're going to tryto lead me into a word trap here so I'll go and say it first-hand. If you plan to "restore" the Gospels, you will corrupt such things even more. Which wil lnot help.
7:13 PM
LDS
Our finite minds cannot comprehend the things of eternity.
7:13 PM
J
The Bible is full of contradictions and yet you do not even understand them.
7:13 PM
Oh what a cop-out.
"We cannot understand him."
LDS
That's the whole point. We do not understand why there are contridictions in the Bible. So a man named Joseph Smith read in James 1:5 that if we lack wisdom that we can ask God. He did and God appeared to him.
7:14 PM
J
Heard that one many a-time.
7:14 PM
It's just a cop-out. Didn't Jesus come so we could "know" God?
LDS
We can all ask God what is true and what we should do. If we have a sincere heart to act upon the response, He will answer us
7:14 PM
J
To think He woudld've told us about such things, that there would be a prohet that would make a brand new book.
7:15 PM
Answer you? I'd love to hear this.
LDS
I am not sure what your question is.
7:15 PM
LDS
Joseph Smith didn't make a new book, he translated an existing record into English so that we would be able to read it. It is another witness that there is truly a God and a Savior.
7:16 PM
J
Didn't He have an eternal throne? I'll ask you that.
7:16 PM
LDS
What Sister Fehlmann is true, but we cannot convince you of that and that is not our purpose. We are here to help you find this answer yourself.
7:16 PM
God? Absolutely he has an eternal throne.
J
Then one cannot become God.
7:17 PM
LDS
Jesus Christ is the Son of God, so after he finished His mission here on earth He went back to His Father, which is also our Father in Heaven. Do you believe that there is a God?
7:18 PM
J
I used to.
7:19 PM
Then I realized there was no evidence.
LDS
Humm.. why would you say that there is no evidence? Isn't everything around you an evidence that there must be at least a higher being?
7:20 PM
J
Are you using the "look st the trees and the stars!" argument? No, that's not evidence of God. That's evidence of trees and stars.
7:20 PM
LDS
Well, we cannot provide you solid physical evidence, but we do know that there is a God. A God that loves us and wants us to return home to him. The only way that you can know this as well is to ask God, just as Joseph Smith did and be willing to act on the impressions you receive.
7:21 PM
What are you expecting as an answer
J
I have asked Him. For many years. I waited for an answer. I searched for one. I looked into bout every popular religion there is. I was a very devout Christian until very recently when I realized I wasn't getting anything. God never revealed himself to me. I wanted something to help calm my nerves and meditate on at night.
7:23 PM
I'm not expecting answer. However, if there was an answer which was given, I would convert immediately.
LDS
Jacob, what made you want to speak with us today?
7:24 PM
J
I wanted to speak to you because I thought you had some answers to my questions, but instead you gave me "We couldn't understand."
7:25 PM
I'm not looking to believe. I'm looking for knowledge.
And I feel that religion is as noursihing to the intellect as a picture of air.
LDS
Something that one of the church leaders said is that faith is a conviction about something we believe. While this makes sense to us, believing people, it is often confusing for non-believers. What he mentions is that there are more ways to see than with our eyes, more ways to feel that with our hands, and more ways to hear than with our ears.
7:27 PM
I truly know that not everything that is true needs physical evidence.
LDS
I also know that what Shay says is true. Sometimes we also need to walk by faith, not only by facts
7:28 PM
J
If you don't have evidence, then you are living by an untesitfiable hypothesis. There are thousands of religions of the world.
7:29 PM
I'll ask you a question.
How can you know that your system of beliefs is the right one?
LDS
I don't really understand why that is a bad thing? To believe and know in a loving God that has a plan for us. Who wants us to return home to him so that we can be eternally happy here and in the eternities.
7:31 PM
LDS
Having faith in something is not having a perfect knowledge of something but to believe in something that we cannot see that is true. Just like love. You cannot see it but it is there
7:31 PM
LDS
To know what church is true, you ask God. Just like Joseph Smith. Just like Sister Fehlmann and I. There is no other way to know than through God.
7:32 PM
Again, that is an answer that we cannot give you. You need to search for that on your own.
J
But how do you know that that your God is there, out of all the others? Krishna, Bishnu, the great Ju Ju up in the mountain. There are many testimonies of an answered prayer in every religion.
7:33 PM
LDS
Well, you do your research and you ask God what is true.
7:34 PM
LDS
This is something that a prophet from ancient times said. Alma 32:27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.'' That's how I could come to know that God is there. By acting on the things I believed to be true, even though I wasn't quite sure.
7:34 PM
J
So by your own definition, we can know that a cult is true, because by killing themselves they are acting on what they think is true, even though they weren't quite sure.
7:35 PM
LDS
I think it must also be reasonable, killing is probably nothing God would like us to do
7:36 PM
LDS
It seems you will counter everything we say without acting on a single thing we've told you. There really is no other way of knowing what is true without asking God.There isn't anything else we can explain to you. We are sorry we couldn't help you further in your quest to find truth. We hope you have a great thanksgiving and enjoy your night.
7:37 PM
If you have any additional questions, please feel free to ask at any questions another time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So yeah, I basically got demolished, but I learned a few things. They used some pretty bogus arguments however. The reason I put this here is t ask any of you if you would use the same arguments for your religion (excluding obviously the things which are mutually exclusive to Mormonism. Thanks in advance.