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child death due to parent's religious belief

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
This February, a 13-year old girl, Amanda Bates, died here in Colorado from complications of diabetes because her parents, who belonged to a church that believes in prayer instead of medical treatment, failed to treat her diabetes. There are around 20 such religious groups in the U.S., and in the last 25 years there have been 150 known cases of such preventable deaths in children of adherents to such groups. (from here.)

These cases raise legal questions of religious freedom vs. child welfare. Several states have laws to protect parents from prosecution in these cases, and the federal Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment act provides an exception that allows such states to keep federal funding.

Thoughts? Should these parents be prosecuted? Or protected from prosecution?
 

Nessa Nenharma

Goddess of my Domain
This February, a 13-year old girl, Amanda Bates, died here in Colorado from complications of diabetes because her parents, who belonged to a church that believes in prayer instead of medical treatment, failed to treat her diabetes. There are around 20 such religious groups in the U.S., and in the last 25 years there have been 150 known cases of such preventable deaths in children of adherents to such groups. (from here.)

These cases raise legal questions of religious freedom vs. child welfare. Several states have laws to protect parents from prosecution in these cases, and the federal Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment act provides an exception that allows such states to keep federal funding.

Thoughts? Should these parents be prosecuted? Or protected from prosecution?


Religion shouldn't be forced on children anyway, they are too young to make an informed decision about any chosed path. With that said, why is it that children can't vote, can't drink, can't drive, yet can fall under freedom of religion? Children should be exempt from this religious loop hole until they are an adult. This is neglect with religious beliefs as the excuse for it to continue.

What about the childs natural rights? The right to LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:bb:

Nessa
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
I think that parents ought to teach their children religion. Unless they are provided an initial deposit of faith and perspective, they won't be equipped to analyze and critically examine others. So I think it's okay for parents to teach their children that prayer is a good substitute for medical care. However, I also believe that the state has the responsibility to protect its citizens, especially the most vulnerable. So parents have the right to teach whatever religion they want to their children; but they must realize that the state has the duty to remove those children in cases where they are being neglected or abused -- whatever the justification is.
 

uss_bigd

Well-Known Member
This February, a 13-year old girl, Amanda Bates, died here in Colorado from complications of diabetes because her parents, who belonged to a church that believes in prayer instead of medical treatment, failed to treat her diabetes. There are around 20 such religious groups in the U.S., and in the last 25 years there have been 150 known cases of such preventable deaths in children of adherents to such groups. (from here.)

These cases raise legal questions of religious freedom vs. child welfare. Several states have laws to protect parents from prosecution in these cases, and the federal Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment act provides an exception that allows such states to keep federal funding.

Thoughts? Should these parents be prosecuted? Or protected from prosecution?


prosecuted.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Thoughts? Should these parents be prosecuted? Or protected from prosecution?
Parents are stewards for their children, not owners. The child still has rights that deserve to be protected, and when a parent fails in this duty, the responsibility falls to society at large, or its agents, the state.

I suppose the parents should be prosecuted, but I think that's a poor alternative to the best course of action, which would be to protect the child while she was still alive. I'd prefer any efforts on this go toward prevention before punishment.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I don't think they should be prosecuted on the basis of religion. They firmly believed that their daughter would be saved by God if they just prayed enough, and I'm sure this death more of a blow to them than it would normally be, because they are no doubt questioning their faith right now.

I think they should be taught that medical help should always be the first choice. If the medical care fails, only then should the prayer be used. I think persecution would just make things worse, for them, and for their religious group. Think about it. They lost their daughter, whom they surely loved to death, they likely are losing their faith, and on top of that, they might go to jail for something they don't believe to be wrong. I can't imagine an emotional hell worse than that.

It's one thing to hear a child choking to death and just continue changing the channel. It's another thing entirely to believe in an alternate method of healing, which in the cold reality doesn't really work, and to use it. I'm not angry with those parents. I weep for them.
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
Probably prosecuted, but I don't know enough about it to say.

But please don't start blaming all religion for her death.
 

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
It is ignorance on their part...they should be held accountable in a court of law. Do not blame all religions for this act of stupidity. God expects us to use common sense............
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
How exactly is something that's completely ineffective a "good substitute" for something that actually is effective?
He didn't say that he agreed, just that hethinks parents should be able to teach it...

I think that it is absurd what happened... but the people truly thought they were doing the best thing to heal their child... They have already had enough of a punishment with their child dieing...
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
This February, a 13-year old girl, Amanda Bates, died here in Colorado from complications of diabetes because her parents, who belonged to a church that believes in prayer instead of medical treatment, failed to treat her diabetes. There are around 20 such religious groups in the U.S., and in the last 25 years there have been 150 known cases of such preventable deaths in children of adherents to such groups. (from here.)

These cases raise legal questions of religious freedom vs. child welfare. Several states have laws to protect parents from prosecution in these cases, and the federal Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment act provides an exception that allows such states to keep federal funding.

Thoughts? Should these parents be prosecuted? Or protected from prosecution?

Jehovah Witness's are not allowed blood transfusions and carry cards specifically stating they wont accept them. When I was in the hospital with cancer I had surgery to remove the tumor and almost died because my mom refused blood transfusions.

When it seemed hopeless and I was still in a coma her love for me outweighed her pointless belief in refusing blood tranfusions.

I was 7. I remember waking up from that coma and my grandmother and mother passed out on my bed. 9 days... I couldnt walk for 20 more. (They severed all the muscles in my stomach and I needed physical therapy to learn how to walk again).

When I opened my eyes. At 7. Before I knew about the transfusion story which I wasnt told until I was 15. Thats when I began questioning god.

It was these doctors and their education that saved me from the brink of death. Not god... not prayer... The tumor removed had been shrunk by both radiation and massive amounts of chemotherapy and was still the size of a football.

At 15 when I heard that story I was obviously a teenager. I was washing dishes by hand as my mom related the story to my aunt. I was washing the inside of a glass with a sponge and the glass burst and the glass dug deep into my hand. Blood was not oozing out it was spraying. My anger was unchained. Over a stupid religious belief.

When I debate god or the belief in god I dont really care what you believe. But when your kids DIE because of your beliefs then I have issues. I was almost one of those kids.

When your religious beliefs bring your children to tears and represses and opresses them and leads them to mental disorders and psychotic episodes then I have issues.

I understand not all religious people are like this but some are... and given the scope of the ideas and power behind religious beliefs can we trust our new masses with it? Could we trust them even with atheism? Some guy who was sitting on death row murdered his whole family save his mom... He said when he looked at his mom all he could think about was getting ready for church and how god said it was wrong to kill and he stopped.... If that dude was atheist then what would have happened?

Ok... end rant.

For the record Im fine now. No cancer etc... I happen not to believe in god. You can hate me now, but I wont start believing.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
He didn't say that he agreed, just that hethinks parents should be able to teach it...

I think that it is absurd what happened... but the people truly thought they were doing the best thing to heal their child... They have already had enough of a punishment with their child dieing...

I think they should be locked away to serve as an example to all the other mouth-breathing muppets.
 

uss_bigd

Well-Known Member
Jehovah Witness's are not allowed blood transfusions and carry cards specifically stating they wont accept them. When I was in the hospital with cancer I had surgery to remove the tumor and almost died because my mom refused blood transfusions.

When it seemed hopeless and I was still in a coma her love for me outweighed her pointless belief in refusing blood tranfusions.

I was 7. I remember waking up from that coma and my grandmother and mother passed out on my bed. 9 days... I couldnt walk for 20 more. (They severed all the muscles in my stomach and I needed physical therapy to learn how to walk again).

When I opened my eyes. At 7. Before I knew about the transfusion story which I wasnt told until I was 15. Thats when I began questioning god.

It was these doctors and their education that saved me from the brink of death. Not god... not prayer... The tumor removed had been shrunk by both radiation and massive amounts of chemotherapy and was still the size of a football.

At 15 when I heard that story I was obviously a teenager. I was washing dishes by hand as my mom related the story to my aunt. I was washing the inside of a glass with a sponge and the glass burst and the glass dug deep into my hand. Blood was not oozing out it was spraying. My anger was unchained. Over a stupid religious belief.

When I debate god or the belief in god I dont really care what you believe. But when your kids DIE because of your beliefs then I have issues. I was almost one of those kids.

When your religious beliefs bring your children to tears and represses and opresses them and leads them to mental disorders and psychotic episodes then I have issues.

I understand not all religious people are like this but some are... and given the scope of the ideas and power behind religious beliefs can we trust our new masses with it? Could we trust them even with atheism? Some guy who was sitting on death row murdered his whole family save his mom... He said when he looked at his mom all he could think about was getting ready for church and how god said it was wrong to kill and he stopped.... If that dude was atheist then what would have happened?

Ok... end rant.

Sigh! I am sorry to hear your story sir.
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
God blesses us through good medical care. We pray that the doctors will have the inspiration and skills necessary. We pray for healing. We pray for strength to cope. We DO everything possible to help the situation and then turn the rest over to God.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
The question is ultimately about equality under the law.

If the government accepts the premise that it is in locos parentis or should, by whatever means, determine that a basic level of health, education, etc. be provided to all children within this nation than any religious belief should not be exempt from such a concept. In other words, if the guardians of a child under secular reasoning deny some form of required medical care for a child under law than a religious belief should be no exception to that law. This is what equality under the law demands of us.

Granting any exemption of belief upon religious grounds should extend to any secular belief as well under the notion of what the first amendment states...freedom of conscience. However, practicality shows us that such an endeavor would lead to basic anarchy. Therefore, to maintain some rule of law they should be prosecuted.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I think that parents ought to teach their children religion. Unless they are provided an initial deposit of faith and perspective, they won't be equipped to analyze and critically examine others.
Being taught to accept doctrine uncritically is a good way to teach children to think critically?
So I think it's okay for parents to teach their children that prayer is a good substitute for medical care.
Why should parents teach their children something that's false? I mean, were you diagnosed with appendicitis today, how would you treat it, prayer, or good medical care?
However, I also believe that the state has the responsibility to protect its citizens, especially the most vulnerable. So parents have the right to teach whatever religion they want to their children; but they must realize that the state has the duty to remove those children in cases where they are being neglected or abused -- whatever the justification is.
What if the state doesn't learn about it until after the child dies? Should the parents be prosecuted for manslaughter? (These parents often keep the issue secret by homeschooling the child.)
 
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