Child dies while parents forgo doctor, rely on prayer.

[Tau]

I would do a deal with the devil himself if I thought it might save my dying child.
Medication however is not Satanic and thus any deals would hopefully be unnecessary.
I would support the state if they wanted to try the couple for murder and the local authorites for negligence in allowing the child to die regardless of the parents wishes.

 

[ChristineES]

I am religious and I am diabetic. I take my medication and treat it. If my children are ill, I treat them as well. I don't think you can put all this blame on the religion, but on the parents-- they may have forgotten that God gives us doctors and medications, too.
Once again, it isn't religion but a few of the people who follow it who cause horrible tragedies that can be prevented.

 

[Alceste]

That's why I said before, that most people don't do this because they use common sense along with the teachings of their religion. These people only used the teachings of their religion (or what they perceived as the teachings of their religion). It's not unfair. I never said that this happens all the time, or that all Christians are like this. All I said was that sometimes religion causes bad stuff like this to happen. Again, if these people hadn't read the Bible, their daughter would not have died.

Hi, mball. It is worth noting that they weren't members of any particular church - the father was the leader of his "prayer group" or whatever you want to call it, which only had about 4 or 5 members. That's not a religion as much as it is a cult. Ie. it seems he tried religion and it wasn't nutty enough for him so he decided to "do his own thing". Also worth noting is that in the part you mention from the article "The Bible says healing comes from God", it's the mother being quoted. I would be very surprised if the Bible actually says that, or condemns getting human assistance with sickness. I can't recall coming across anything like that myself, but even if it's in there somewhere I can almost guarantee that somewhere else there's something else that contradicts it. That's the Bible for you. "Open to interpretation."

I am inclined to think that maybe if these fools were actually members of a legitimate church someone in the congregation might have intervened, or at least tried to talk sense into them. I agree "religion" is not to blame here as much as pure effing mind-boggling ignorance with perhaps a touch of mental illness.

I would be inclined, though, to allocate a portion of the finger-pointing for those sodding "faith healers" that plague the US. If anything, it's not the Bible but these con artists that are putting the idea of miracle healing into people's heads. They're not getting that nonsense from the Bible either, unless they think they're Jesus, which wouldn't surprise me. Perhaps they'd rather have their flock donate generously into the collection plate than have them dishing out for medical bills?

Come to think of it, I wonder if the for-profit health care system down there might have some influence in that bizarre movement. I mean if people can't afford treatment anyway, it must be comforting to believe God will do it for free?

 

[Magic Man]

Hi, mball. It is worth noting that they weren't members of any particular church - the father was the leader of his "prayer group" or whatever you want to call it, which only had about 4 or 5 members. That's not a religion as much as it is a cult. Ie. it seems he tried religion and it wasn't nutty enough for him so he decided to "do his own thing". Also worth noting is that in the part you mention from the article "The Bible says healing comes from God", it's the mother being quoted. I would be very surprised if the Bible actually says that, or condemns getting human assistance with sickness. I can't recall coming across anything like that myself, but even if it's in there somewhere I can almost guarantee that somewhere else there's something else that contradicts it. That's the Bible for you. "Open to interpretation."

I am inclined to think that maybe if these fools were actually members of a legitimate church someone in the congregation might have intervened, or at least tried to talk sense into them. I agree "religion" is not to blame here as much as pure effing mind-boggling ignorance with perhaps a touch of mental illness.

I would be inclined, though, to allocate a portion of the finger-pointing for those sodding "faith healers" that plague the US. If anything, it's not the Bible but these con artists that are putting the idea of miracle healing into people's heads. They're not getting that nonsense from the Bible either, unless they think they're Jesus, which wouldn't surprise me. Perhaps they'd rather have their flock donate generously into the collection plate than have them dishing out for medical bills?

Come to think of it, I wonder if the for-profit health care system down there might have some influence in that bizarre movement. I mean if people can't afford treatment anyway, it must be comforting to believe God will do it for free?

OK, just answer this: Would they have gotten medical help for their daughter, if they did not believe in the Bible (or other religious sources)?

 

[Alceste]

OK, just answer this: Would they have gotten medical help for their daughter, if they did not believe in the Bible (or other religious sources)?

They almost certainly would have found some mortal damage to inflict regardless of what nonsense they believed. For example, my mother has had students of the same age whose "enlightened" (ie non-religious) parents had subjected their kid to a quack homeopath slash nutritionist rather than a family doctor. As a result the kid was in very poor health - weak, irritable, inattentive, pale and drawn, and he ate glue and play dough to satisfy his cravings for "forbidden" food. Which was pretty much defined as "everything kids like".

So religious nutters have not cornered the market on bad parenting. There are all kinds of other nutters.

But to be fair, they would not have used the Bible as the focus of their incompetence if they had never heard of it. I still think they may have been better off reading it than just fantasizing that it contained miracle healing powers. I doubt they were very literate.

 

[Alex_G]

Wow.
Parents charged in death of diabetic daughter - CNN.com

Absolute idiots. I dont give a toss about parental religious views if its a child whos in a potential situation of life and death. Id treat her anyway, deal with consequences later Ach im soo gunna get sued when i qualify ha

It is a shame when this irrationality occurs. Sad.

 

[logician]

I knew a lady who was a member of the Christian Science church that let her son die from complications of diabetes. To watch her son go blind and suffer like he did was almost more than one could take. There really should be laws against this sort of "murder in the name of religion".

 

[Magic Man]

They almost certainly would have found some mortal damage to inflict regardless of what nonsense they believed. For example, my mother has had students of the same age whose "enlightened" (ie non-religious) parents had subjected their kid to a quack homeopath slash nutritionist rather than a family doctor. As a result the kid was in very poor health - weak, irritable, inattentive, pale and drawn, and he ate glue and play dough to satisfy his cravings for "forbidden" food. Which was pretty much defined as "everything kids like".

So religious nutters have not cornered the market on bad parenting. There are all kinds of other nutters.

But to be fair, they would not have used the Bible as the focus of their incompetence if they had never heard of it. I still think they may have been better off reading it than just fantasizing that it contained miracle healing powers. I doubt they were very literate.

I never said they have the market cornered. I just don't think it's honest to rule out religion as a cause in this case. Other times there are other causes, but this time it happenedto be religion.

 

[DallasApple]

Its not religion...Its insanity..

Love

Dallas

 

[Katzpur]

I used to think that it was a request until God led me to anew understanding of the Lord's Prayer. The wording is very commanding:

Thy Kingdom come Thy will be done
Give us this day our daily bread
Forgive us our sins
Lead us not into temptation
Deliver us from evil

and not an if you please ever mentioned.

There may not be a "please," but a cry of "Help me!" is still a request, in my opinion. Besides, don't you think that "thy will by done" indicates submission to a Higher Power? I suppose this girl's parents may have realized when they were praying that their prayers might not be answered, and were willing to accept God's will if it be that she die. To me, it's a good thing to put one's faith in God, but only when we are doing what we can to accomplish what we want to see happen. In other words, this girl's parents had the responsibility to provide her with whatever medical help might have saved her life and then, if they wanted to, followed up with a prayer that the doctors be guided in their treatment.

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

I want to take a stab at this debate. I am leaning towards... it is both the fault of the parents religion and also, simply thier ignorance/insanity.

Religion is a mechanism for both good and evil. The way that it is wielded depends on the nature of the person.

People can make anything nasty.

Yet, it is religions fault for having elements within it that can be so easily miscontrued by fanatics. I know this can't be an isolated incident because I have heard about beliefs like this too often. It is pretty common. The severity of the extremism just varies.

In the end it is the parents fault though. They seemed to want a miracle. They seemed to want to reinforce thier blind faith. Deep down they probably just wanted to reaffirm thier own ego, so as to know they were "right." So many fanatical christian variations absolutely LOVE that.

I wonder what the daughter really wanted? Did she agree with her parents? Or did they force her to endure, reassuring her that mommy and daddy know best?

 

[Alceste]

I never said they have the market cornered. I just don't think it's honest to rule out religion as a cause in this case. Other times there are other causes, but this time it happenedto be religion.

Agreed. I didn't mean to come off like I was dismissing their religious beliefs as the cause of the tragedy. Just meant to say there are many other ways to be stupid.

For example, blind faith in medical science can be just as catastrophic. Thousands of women who got breast cancer as a result of post-menopausal hormone therapy recommended by their doctors can attest to that.

The common problem is blind faith. Ordinary faith mixed with a bit of common sense is not nearly as dangerous.

 

[.lava]

People can make anything nasty.

Yet, it is religions fault for having elements within it that can be so easily miscontrued by fanatics.

people can make anything nasty. so how would it become 'fault' of religion?

 

[Draka]

Oh for crying out loud!

re�li�gion � � (r

-l

j

n) [SIZE=-2]KEY [/SIZE]�

[SIZE=-1]NOUN: [/SIZE]

1. a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
   b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
   
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

It WAS their religion, their set of beliefs, that caused them to do this. There ARE organized churches that also preach such things as well. Hence the little 15 month old baby girl who died in the same dang month in another state from a treatable illness.

I don't believe that anyone here is saying that ALL religions are inherently bad because of what has happened, BUT denying that these people's religion was a main contributing cause of this tragedy is just foolishness and dangerous. One must always realize the dangers that go along with some religions. There ARE dangers. There are traps of certain forms of fundalmentalism in just about ANY religion. To deny this is to have blinders on.

Mball is exactly right. If you go into certain religions without using at least a modicum of common sense and reason then you get what happened here. It is not a stretch or offense to realize and accept this fact.

 

[.lava]

Oh for crying out loud!

It WAS their religion, their set of beliefs, that caused them to do this. There ARE organized churches that also preach such things as well. Hence the little 15 month old baby girl who died in the same dang month in another state from a treatable illness.

I don't believe that anyone here is saying that ALL religions are inherently bad because of what has happened, BUT denying that these people's religion was a main contributing cause of this tragedy is just foolishness and dangerous. One must always realize the dangers that go along with some religions. There ARE dangers. There are traps of certain forms of fundalmentalism in just about ANY religion. To deny this is to have blinders on.

Mball is exactly right. If you go into certain religions without using at least a modicum of common sense and reason then you get what happened here. It is not a stretch or offense to realize and accept this fact.

does that mean there no dangers if one was not religious?

 

[Fluffy]

does that mean there no dangers if one was not religious?

No. But clearly religion can contribute to dangers such as in this case.

 

[Draka]

does that mean there no dangers if one was not religious?

Well, you certainly aren't going to let your child go untreated and die over a curable or treatable illness because you believe that some deity will take care of it for you. So there's not that danger.

I'm not saying that people don't make mistakes or put their trust or faith in the wrong things, BUT I am saying that religion is a big thing that people do put their faith and trust in and that going into that without weighing the pros and cons, and using common sense and the intelligence that we have (and some attribute to their god anyway), is something that DOES sometimes happen. To ignore that is a danger of religion is just foolish.

 

[.lava]

Well, you certainly aren't going to let your child go untreated and die over a curable or treatable illness because you believe that some deity will take care of it for you. So there's not that danger.

I'm not saying that people don't make mistakes or put their trust or faith in the wrong things, BUT I am saying that religion is a big thing that people do put their faith and trust in and that going into that without weighing the pros and cons, and using common sense and the intelligence that we have (and some attribute to their god anyway), is something that DOES sometimes happen. To ignore that is a danger of religion is just foolish.

are you suggesting that those people (who sat down and watched their kid die) would be wiser if they were not religious?

i don't think so.

 

[Draka]

are you suggesting that those people (who sat down and watched their kid die) would be wiser if they were not religious?

i don't think so.

If they don't know how to follow a religion without being stupid about it...then yeah...they would. Their child sure would have been better off. You want to deny that last bit?

 

[.lava]

If they don't know how to follow a religion without being stupid about it...then yeah...they would. Their child sure would have been better off. You want to deny that last bit?

yea if angle of your point of view was too narrow, then it does not matter where you are, what you do, what you believe in. that narrowness would be reflected on every decision you make. religious or not religious..no difference there. cos that angle is within one's mind. it is not religion that makes people narrow minded. they are already narrow so what they see is equal to themselves.

there is no need for a religion to act ignorant. 'healing comes from God' is exactly what i believe. seriously. i am not Christian though.