Child Sex Abuse And Atheists

[Dan From Smithville]

Saying that you are putting words in someone's mouth, and that you object when persons do it to you, is an insult?
If that's the case, can you count on you fingers and toes the number insults you have dished out?


Which one of my posts did you find that idea, and since it's me and others, why did you target me? I haven't seen you talk to those others. No agenda?
Let's start with my first question - Which of my posts gave you the idea that I seem to think that religious organizations should operate under special and separate rules and avoid the law?


I didn't realize the OP had anything to do with the church getting a pass for anything.
Maybe I need glasses, as someone here suggested.

I thought it had to do with first, the topic. Second, the questions in the OP.

My first post. My point was made clear - people, religious or not, commit crimes against children. It not about religion.

My second post. Again I made my point clear - people, religious or not - including atheist -, commit crimes against children. It not about religion.

All of what I was discussing was dealing with the so-called "lopsided difference" between Atheists and Christians - as though only Christians were involved in this problem.
The question - Could it be that, for whatever reason, the Christian religion either attracts child sex abusers or turns people into them?
If not, how do you explain such a lopsided difference?
My arguments were to show that to be a myth.
Afterwards I was engaged in conversation.

Now enter you.
Your first post. 911 in the United States.
What does that have to do with anything here?

Your second post.
It's obvious you are looking for a way to engage, so I bite.

You third post.
To me, this highlights your agenda.
First, you say people rush to find anything ... to show that not only Christian organizations are involved.
Then you talk of what is important is to find it, and stop it.
Those rushes to show it occurs outside the church gives the sense that we can ignore it in church, because we have shown it happens outside.
Then you get to your point - It should never happen there - not in church.

I'm not going to point out the agenda directly. I think it's clear to everyone. However, you mentioned your main point a few times, so I want to deal with it...since I think it can contribute in a meaningful way, to the OP.

Why don't you think this sort of thing should not happen in church?
I think this is very important so let's zero in on this.


It looks silly? You should see the image I had in mind to post. Do you want to see it?
It's just showing that your accusations, and assumptions are made willfully even though you have no knowledge of them being right, so yes, I made it up Effective Willful Wrong, in order to fit my feelings toward what I consider baseless accusations.

Spoiler: EWW

Good grief.

 

[nPeace]

Good grief.

I find whenever some persons are put in a position to prove what they accuse someone of, they address the post with something like that. It happens like clockwork.

Okay. Forget the other parts.
How about just this...
Why don't you think this sort of thing - child molestation - should not happen in church?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I find whenever some persons are put in a position to prove what they accuse someone of, they address the post with something like that. It happens like clockwork.

Okay. Forget the other parts.
How about just this...
Why don't you think this sort of thing - child molestation - should not happen in church?

Do you really need an answer for that? Why do you think it is OK? That seems like a more relevant question.

 

[nPeace]

Do you really need an answer for that? Why do you think it is OK? That seems like a more relevant question.

What makes you think I think it's okay?
Are you going to answer the question, or are you not?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

What makes you think I think it's okay?
Are you going to answer the question, or are you not?

Sure. I will answer you. From the responses you gave, it seemed clear to me that you were ok with it in church. Just asking the question is suggestive that you are ok with it. You did not know how to respond about what to do if you discovered such abuse in a church. You would rather use a demonstrated failed means to deal with it by keeping it in the church and avoid the law and void the rights of any victims. That seems like you are ok with it.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

What makes you think I think it's okay?
Are you going to answer the question, or are you not?

Also, you made a big deal of bringing in any evidence of rape and sexual abuse, whether it was about minors or not, to divert attention away from those occurrences in churches. You also said that similar, but on point evidence, provided by another about such events in a church in England were lies. You obviously did not read the article. It seems like you were making a case that in a church, it is not a problem.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

My use of statistics, which show that a Catholic is nearly 400 times less likely to have been sexually harassed as a child

And still no sources.

 

[Salvador]

And still no sources.

Referenced sources: 9 Myths about Priestly Pedophilia

Sexual harassment in education in the United States - Wikipedia

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Referenced sources: 9 Myths about Priestly Pedophilia

Sexual harassment in education in the United States - Wikipedia

Again, those aren't comparing the same thing. One looks at perpetrators, the other looks at victims.

 

[Salvador]

Again, those aren't comparing the same thing. One looks at perpetrators, the other looks at victims.

I was denied my request for this Forum to allow me to conduct a survey in the Catholic section of this forum asking former altar boys if they were ever inappropriately touched by his Priest.

I wanted to do a comparative study of Catholics sexually harassed by Priests in comparison to public school students sexually harassed by public school teachers; but I was hesitant to conduct this survey, because I thought it might be offensive towards altar boys or misconstrued as an attack against Catholic priests.

 

[nPeace]

@Dan From Smithville
You chose to respond with two meaningless words, to a post that required answering with facts.
Then you respond with two meaningless posts, to a question that requires no facts, just what you think.
It would have been so nice if you had responded with that kind of enthusiasm, when you were asked to show the evidence for your claims.

However, I gave you two days to answer the question, you said you were going to answer, and you haven't.
Why? What are you... chicken?

I suggest you are, and I am calling you out.
Why are you suddenly backing out? Is it that when you thought about how to answer, you realized you are wrong in your thinking?

Whatever happened to that big image of intelligence and smartness?
To me, it's always exposed for what it really is - nothing but weakness.
It's like butter in the midday sun, on the California highway.

If I waited to get your answer to this question, I think Armageddon would come and I would still be waiting, so I will go ahead and move on.

Why should child abuse be at zero in church, and not the schools, and day care centers, and the family home itself? What's the difference?

The sad reality is, children are molested mostly by people whom are given a measure of trust - by the parents, and the child.
A wife trusts that her child is in safe hands with her husband. She can't keep an eye on the child 24/7.
The parents may trust a seemingly trustworthy and loving individual - brother, uncle, or friend of the child. It may extend to a caregiver, or caregivers, at a "reputable" center. Or a seemingly godly individual at a place of worship.
The child themselves, in their innocence, may be very trusting toward all the above, and even seemingly trustworthy and pleasant strangers.

How can child molestation be zero, in any place at all?
I believe that child molestation will continue to occur because...
1. Not religion, but the sick mind of people.
A man with a sick mind will sexually assault a child, whether his own, or someone else's.
There are some cases where, parents are separated, and perverted men may have rights to custody of his child for the weekend.

2. Not religion, but a failure on the part of parents to protect their child, or arm them to protect themselves.

I believe the solution to alleviating child abuse, is actually being done by religions organizations, and many parents wisely use these solutions.
It just takes educating your child - Protect Your Children
If this is done, I believe it would significantly reduce the chances of children being molested even at home.

However, we make mistakes, and so parents do slip up at times. They may fail to teach their children, and so limit that protection.
For example...
Some parents don't know how or when to teach their children certain things about their body, or sex, and some consider these topics taboo.
Can you imagine that some parents tell their children not to say penis. What?

Aside from that, I think the hypocritical secular system, is largely responsible for undermining any positive steps to alleviate this problem. How?
By the promoting of the disgusting filth pornography, that I believe fuels perverted uncles and aunts, brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers...
So you hear hundreds of stories like this...
15-year-old schoolboy found guilty of rape against 4-year-old sister and 5-year-old brother

A 12-year-old boy who raped his seven-year-old sister after watching hardcore pornography on the internet has avoided a custodial sentence.

The boy, now 13, pleaded guilty to rape, two counts of indecent assault and inciting a child to engage in sexual activity.

Blackburn Youth Court heard he had viewed pornography with friends and gained "a desire to try it out".
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Singapore boy rapes younger sister, showing the terrible effects of porn on kids

He was just 12 years old, and his little sister, only 10. It was 2013. It was also the year the boy started to watch pornography.

One day, the siblings were home alone, and reportedly, the boy was watching porn. When he got sexually aroused, he looked for his sister to satiate his desires.
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No need to fill this page with all these facts.
...because there is always that situation where a child is raped, and it is never reported.

So, No. Religion evidently is not the problem. The corrupt system is.
The only thing ( find religion guilty of, is failure to teach the truth (+ corruption and hypocrisy). When I say religion, of course I mean religion that does not stick to the teachings of the Bible which help people to learn the truth about God...IMO, so that they love him and his laws.
I'm referring to teachings such as eternal torment in hellfire, and the concept of a mysterious God, in the doctrine of the Trinity.... but that's a whole different topic from this thread.

That is my view on this situation.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

It would be an absolutely impossible task to get reliable statistics on something like this. However, that is certainly no reason to dismiss the problem. Furthermore, a percentage is a proportion, which, if we could get such stats, we could use to compare populations of different sizes.

What evidence is there to suggest abuse is more common with Christians than with atheists? If you have real evidence to support this claim, I'd like to see it, but I don't think that there is any evidence to suggest such a claim is true.

 

[youknowme]

What evidence is there to suggest abuse is more common with Christians than with atheists? If you have real evidence to support this claim, I'd like to see it, but I don't think that there is any evidence to suggest such a claim is true.

I consider the frequency in which such events are brought to light to be evidence.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

I consider the frequency in which such events are brought to light to be evidence.

This is not evidence. There are approximately ten times more Christians in the US than there are atheists and agnostics, so for abuse to actually occur at a higher rate in Christian groups than in atheist groups, reports would have to be more than ten times more frequent in Christian groups than in atheist groups. Until an organized study is conducted that proves this, there is no evidence.

 

[youknowme]

This is not evidence. There are approximately ten times more Christians in the US than there are atheists and agnostics, so for abuse to actually occur at a higher rate in Christian groups than in atheist groups, reports would have to be more than ten times more frequent in Christian groups than in atheist groups. Until an organized study is conducted that proves this, there is no evidence.

I am fairly certain that you do not get to decide if I consider it as evidence.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

I am fairly certain that you do not get to decide if I consider it as evidence.

I'm fairly certain that what you consider to be evidence has no bearing on what actually constitutes objective evidence.

 

[youknowme]

I'm fairly certain that what you consider to be evidence has no bearing on what actually constitutes objective evidence.

Neither is your dismissal of the repeated reports of child abuse in religion. I would love it if we could have further evidence but sometimes we just have to work with what we have. What I do know is that reports of child abuse inside religion are all too common, and any sensible person should find this a reason for concern.

 

[nPeace]

I find it interesting that while religion views pornography as a plague on society, that should be permanently eradicated, the so-called experts of society, do not consider pornography a vice, but seem to think it's a virtue.

Is it any wonder that the perverts use children in this cesspool of filth, with the knowledge that they can easily hide their activity.

Child pornography: FBI, Interpol, US Justice Dept think Internet is the key culprit
Views of US Department of Justice on the subject:

In 2017, the US Department of Justice had observed: "The expansion of the Internet and advanced digital technology lies parallel to the explosion of the child pornography market. Child pornography images are readily available through virtually every Internet technology, including social networking websites, file-sharing sites, photo-sharing sites, gaming devices, and even mobile apps."

The key American department had gone on to state: "Child pornography offenders can also connect on Internet forums and networks to share their interests, desires, and experiences abusing children, in addition to selling, sharing, and trading images. These online communities have promoted communication and collaboration between child pornography offenders, thereby fostering a larger relationship premised on a shared sexual interest in children."

Gravity of the menace:

The gravity of this global menace can be gauged from the fact that in March 2011, the European Police or the Europol had arrested 184 alleged members out of 670 identified, of an online pedophile ring and rescued 230 children which is still considered as the biggest case of its kind.

Police of several countries in a joint mission called "Operation Rescue," had targeted an online network, whose server was based in the Netherlands with almost 70,000 members worldwide. (References: The CNN and NBC News)

The American FBI:

On April 25, 2017, the American Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) had noted that producers and consumers of child pornography operated in the shadows, and anonymous Internet networks often allowed them to carry out their illicit activities without fear of being unmasked and caught.

It is noteworthy that 56 field offices of FBI conduct child abuse investigations with the help of American Child Exploitation Task Forces, the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children and around 400 law enforcement partner organizations.

The FBI has held that the role of pornography in contributing to such abuse is explored by reviewing laboratory studies and the circumstances of child sexual abuse.

It states: "Rarely a week goes by in the United States that a child pornographer is not charged or sentenced for federal crimes related to the sexual exploitation of children."

MILLIONS OF CHILDREN ARE SEXUALLY ABUSED
EACH YEAR IN THE WORLD

NUMBER OF PERSONS PROSECUTED FOR COMMERCIAL SEXUAL EXPLOITATION OF CHILDREN NEARLY DOUBLED BETWEEN 2004 AND 2013
WASHINGTON — The annual number of persons prosecuted for commercial sexual exploitation of children (CSEC) cases filed in U.S. district court nearly doubled between 2004 and 2013, increasing from 1,405 to 2,776 cases, the Bureau of Justice Statistics announced today.

During the period, a CSEC crime was the most serious offense or lead charge for 37,105 suspects referred to U.S. attorneys for investigation. Suspects referred for the possession of child pornography (72 percent) accounted for the majority of all CSEC suspects, followed by those suspected of child sex trafficking (18 percent) and child pornography production (10 percent).

Most suspects arrested for CSEC crimes were male (97 percent), were U.S. citizens (97 percent), were white (82 percent), had no prior felony convictions (79 percent) and were not married (70 percent). CSEC suspects had a median age of 39 years, and more than half (56 percent) had no more than a high school education.

Sexually violent predator charged with exposing himself
Posted Jul 27, 2017
Hein is registered in the Pennsylvania Megan’s Law web site as a sexually violent predator for the sexual abuse of children, which he was convicted of in May 2012, according to the site. He was also convicted of indecent assault in Feb. 2000, and possession of child pornography in May 2012.

Melvin Novak, 28, says he was sexually abused by then-scoutmaster Vance Hein in 1988.
In the late 1990s, Novak told his parents about the abuse. After a police investigation, Hein pleaded guilty and is currently in jail for possession of child pornography.

What I find interesting too, is how some persons close their eyes to the fact that most perpetrators of child sex abuse, and perverts before they are religious.
So in reality, it really perverted people that infiltrate religions organizations to carry out their dirty deeds.
It seems obvious then, that those who continue to point their finger at religions, despite the evidence that religion is not the problem, do so, apparently because of their personal hatred for religion, rather than based on evidence.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We can agree the police should handle the cases from the Church when the Church investigation finds there is enough evidence for a Priest to more than likely be found legally guilty of sexually assaulting a child.

Anything less than immediately reporting any claim of abuse is irresponsible and unacceptable.

... including abuse claims heard during confession.

 

[LuisDantas]

Could it be that, for whatever reason, the Christian religion either attracts child sex abusers or turns people into them?

If not, how do you explain such a lopsided difference?.

I don't know that there is such a difference. I don't think that we have enough data to tell.

It does however stand to reason that the emphasis on obedience to authority that is found in Christianity probably emboldens such abuse to some degree.