Child Sex Abuse And Atheists

[nPeace]

You posted links. You claimed they were from verifiable sources. It was meant as a question and I accidentally left out the question mark. If your sources were verified, I assume that you did this verification, since you were implying no one else apparently did with sources they cited. I am still curious how you determined that I did not verify the reliability of that article about the JW's.

I honestly don't know what you want, so I can't help you, it seems.

I think it is clear from your responses that you do.

If you claim they are verified sources, it is your job to show that.

No it's not. If you have a problem with the links, then show why.
You want me to both show that my links are reliable, and that other's aren't...
What a great guy.

Lame. You implied the story about the JW church was a lie. Then you went to length to go on about verification. You must have the verification for your accusation of lies with regards to the article that so inflamed you.

<Sigh>
What story did I imply was a lie? Can you pinpoint it?
Lame is right. Discussing nothing important to the thread is.

But you are not denying that my read was correct. I will rest comfortably tonight knowing that and that you cannot stop me from thinking.


The tenor of your posts suggests that you consider sexual abuse of children by church membership and/or clergy as something to be tolerated. If that is not your underlying theme, then you may wish to reword your statements.

From the time you jumped on here you have made false accusations against me, and basically said you don't care that you are wrong, because it's what you think.
The tenor of my posts, and what they imply to you, are all what you think.
I do mot wish to change your thinking, for which you think you are right because you are so smart.
If you wish to discuss my post, then do so like everyone else.
I meant everything I said.
You have a problem with anything, then just post your argument.

If the OP is child abuse, then you should only include evidence only to child abuse. Anything else potentially clouds the issue and in favor of your position, I will add.

Yes sir. Corporal Sir. As you wish Sir!

Not hardly.

Dance away. My observations still stand and they are on what I have read.

This really says nothing in relation to what should be done in the case of church-related sexual abuse. You seem more willing to let abuse or allegations of abuse go without investigation and unpunished where it proves to be the case. That is the message I got from you. If I am wrong on this, you can show me by throwing all your weight behind positive claims that allegations should be investigated and criminals prosecuted and punished where they are found to be guilty. Even if it is in a religion, sect or church that is your favorite.

What are you, some sort of thread dictator?
You are not dictating how I should post, are you?
Why don't you post something meaningful to the thread, or am I correct - Your agenda is clearly evident...

 

[Salvador]

WHAT!!???!?? Are you serious?

These matters should be promptly investigated by the Church before jumping to any conclusions; based on the findings of the Church's investigation, any further appropriate action should be taken as deemed necessary by the Church.

 

[Salvador]

I think that would be something the parent would have to decide, regarding what measures to take, since the parent should do all they can to protect and care for the child.

Of course, the Church and the parents of children who've been allegedly sexually abused by their Priest should cooperate together in the Church's investigation of their Priests who've been alleged to have sexually assaulted the Church's parishioner's child.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

These matters should be promptly investigated by the Church before jumping to any conclusions; based on the findings of the Church's investigation, any further appropriate action should be taken as necessary.

That is an outrageous suggestion. It is precisely the same thing as saying that somebody abused by the police should have their complaint investigated first by the police, and only by the courts if the police decide that it might be for real.

This is perilously incompetent thinking! Let us hope no child of yours is ever put into such a situation!

 

[lewisnotmiller]

A child claiming he was sexually abused without any reasonable evidence to support his allegation of being sexually abused by his Priest is not sufficient reason for the Church to go to the police.

Mandatory reporting laws in industries like teaching here in Australia suggest otherwise. Perhaps that is part of the problem.

 

[Salvador]

That is an outrageous suggestion. It is precisely the same thing as saying that somebody abused by the police should have their complaint investigated first by the police, and only by the courts if the police decide that it might be for real.

This is perilously incompetent thinking! Let us hope no child of yours is ever put into such a situation!

People abused by the police can file a complaint with the internal affairs division of the police department that supervises the conduct of the policeman whom the complainant has filed a grievance against.

 

[Salvador]

Mandatory reporting laws in industries like teaching here in Australia suggest otherwise. Perhaps that is part of the problem.

In America, the Church has a history of handling allegations internally; this evidently has been sufficiently effective in deterring their Priests from sexually harassing their young-aged parishioners. According to a study conducted by the Church, only one out of approximately 4,000 Catholic children likely have been sexually harassed by their Priests; this is a very low rate of child sex abuse in comparison to the nearly one out of ten public school students who've reported having been sexually harassed by a teacher or an administrator of the school where they attend classes.

 

[Revoltingest]

As long as these organizations aren't being targeted by the law because they are religious organizations.

I agree.

 

[nPeace]

Of course, the Church and the parents of children who've been allegedly sexually abused by their Priest should cooperate together in the Church's investigation of their Priests who've been alleged to have sexually assaulted the Church's parishioner's child.

I understand.
Do you observe that there are persons here who just want to point their finger in one direction - religion, while ignoring and closing their eyes to the fact that the problem does not lie with religion.
The problem is a global problem which involve people, and even a failed system.
Who can fix such a system, and where should it start?

Just reading an article.
POLICE SEXUAL MISCONDUCT
Abstract
Police sexual misconduct is often considered a hidden crime that routinely goes unreported. The current study provides an empirical data on cases of sex-related police crime at law enforcement agencies across the United States. The study identifies and describes incidents where sworn law enforcement officers were arrested for one or more sex-related crimes through a quantitative content analysis of published newspaper articles and court records. The primary news information source was the Google News search engine using 48 automated Google Alerts. Data are analyzed on 548 arrest cases in the years 2005-2007 of 398 officers employed by 328 nonfederal law enforcement agencies located in 265 counties and independent cities in 43 states and the District of Columbia. Findings indicate that police sexual misconduct includes serious forms of sex-related crime and that victims of sex-related police crime are typically younger than 18 years of age.

The focus of research on sex-related police misconduct had clearly shifted to emphasize how police use their position to harass, coerce, or abuse females. The theme provides context for Walker and Irlbeck's (2002) work on what they refer to as the national problem of “driving while female,” wherein police use the pretext of alleged traffic violations to sexually harass or abuse female drivers. A follow-up report by Walker and Irlbeck (2003) also includes victims of police sexual misconduct who were teenagers involved in Law Enforcement Career Exploring programs or prostitutes. Collectively, these studies identified 183 cases over a twelve year period; almost 40% of the cases involved teenage victims, and 34% occurred within the context of a traffic stop—all of the cases involved police who abuse their authority to “take advantage of vulnerable people” (2003, p. 2). These common themes are also evident in Escholtz and Vaughn's (2001) study focused on police liability. They specifically describe cases of “sexual extortion” where police intimidate vulnerable citizens with “lies and half-truths to engage in sexual activities in exchange for their freedom” (Eschholz & Vaughn, 2001, p. 395)

...studies also suggest that police most often do not lose their job as a result of an arrest for crimes associated with domestic violence or impaired driving (Stinson, Liederbach, Brewer, & Todak, 2013; Stinson & Liederbach, 2013). Rabe-Hemp and Braithwaite (2013) identify 106 cases of police sexual violence to explore recidivism among police who perpetrate sex crimes. Their findings suggest that (a) police sexual violence is a “pattern prone” offense that often involves recidivist officers who victimize multiple persons and (b) that a striking number of police accused of sex crimes manage to escape appropriate penalties and maintain police certification by moving from one jurisdiction to another.

Could it be thee policemen were taught by religion, or perhaps they are a religion. What should be done here. Are all cops corrupt? Is being a part of the police force, belonging to an organization that preys on children and innocent women going about their business? Is it the case that unless members in the force learn to recognize the problems in their organization, the abuse of children and innocent women will continue?

These questions are not directed to you Salvador. I'm just musing.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

In America, the Church has a history of handling allegations internally; this evidently has been sufficiently effective in deterring their Priests from sexually harassing their young-aged parishioners. According to a study conducted by the Church, only one out of approximately 4,000 Catholic children likely have been sexually harassed by their Priests; this is a very low rate of child sex abuse in comparison to the nearly one out of ten public school students who've reported having been sexually harassed by a teacher or an administrator of the school where they attend classes.

Can you source that please, so I can properly respond?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I honestly don't know what you want, so I can't help you, it seems.


No it's not. If you have a problem with the links, then show why.
You want me to both show that my links are reliable, and that other's aren't...
What a great guy.


<Sigh>
What story did I imply was a lie? Can you pinpoint it?
Lame is right. Discussing nothing important to the thread is.


From the time you jumped on here you have made false accusations against me, and basically said you don't care that you are wrong, because it's what you think.
The tenor of my posts, and what they imply to you, are all what you think.
I do mot wish to change your thinking, for which you think you are right because you are so smart.
If you wish to discuss my post, then do so like everyone else.
I meant everything I said.
You have a problem with anything, then just post your argument.


Yes sir. Corporal Sir. As you wish Sir!


What are you, some sort of thread dictator?
You are not dictating how I should post, are you?
Why don't you post something meaningful to the thread, or am I correct - Your agenda is clearly evident...

Straw man arguments and diversion. How unexpected.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

@Altfish by the way, please be careful in the future not to believe lies because they are printed, and appear colorful.

An accusation can disagree with facts. I could accuse you of anything. Does not mean I have the facts.

This is the article you seem to have conveniently forgotten, along with your claim that it is lies.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I honestly don't know what you want, so I can't help you, it seems.


No it's not. If you have a problem with the links, then show why.
You want me to both show that my links are reliable, and that other's aren't...
What a great guy.


<Sigh>
What story did I imply was a lie? Can you pinpoint it?
Lame is right. Discussing nothing important to the thread is.


From the time you jumped on here you have made false accusations against me, and basically said you don't care that you are wrong, because it's what you think.
The tenor of my posts, and what they imply to you, are all what you think.
I do mot wish to change your thinking, for which you think you are right because you are so smart.
If you wish to discuss my post, then do so like everyone else.
I meant everything I said.
You have a problem with anything, then just post your argument.


Yes sir. Corporal Sir. As you wish Sir!


What are you, some sort of thread dictator?
You are not dictating how I should post, are you?
Why don't you post something meaningful to the thread, or am I correct - Your agenda is clearly evident...

I agree. You meant everything you said about how child sexual abuse should be handled in a church. A crime should not be reported if it makes people uncomfortable by doing so.

 

[Salvador]

Can you source that please, so I can properly respond?

"A major 2004 study commissioned by the U.S. Department of Education found that nearly 10 percent of U.S. public school students reported having been targeted with sexual attention by school employees."

Sexual harassment in education in the United States - Wikipedia

According to a 2004 research study by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, 4,392 Catholic priests and deacons in active ministry between 1950 and 2002 have been plausibly (neither withdrawn nor disproven) accused of under-age sexual abuse by 10,667 individuals.

There are an estimated 51 million adult American Catholics,

7 facts about U.S. Catholics

Nearly ninety percent of all adult American Catholics now were children between 1950 to 2002.

https://cara.georgetown.edu/staff/webpages/Catholic Families Demographics.pdf

So then approximately 46 million of them were potential victims of child abuse by a Priest. 10,667 alleged victims out of 46 million potential victims means that less than one out of every four thousand Catholic children were sexually harassed by Priests, this compare to nearly one out of nearly ten public school students having been harassed by an public school employee. So then, a Catholic is nearly 400 times less likely to have been sexually harassed as a child by a Priest than the likelihood of somebody having been sexually harassed as a public school student by a public school employee.

 

[Pudding]

I'm sure that atheists are not immune from sexual abuse/misdemeanors - David Silverman and Lawrence Krauss come to mind - I think the big differences are...

• Atheists do not claim the high moral ground
• Atheists do not get hung up about sex
• Atheists are quick to out and condemn any offenders within their ranks - too many churches try to cover issues up.

Do you mean

• Some atheists do not claim the high moral ground
• Some atheists do not get hung up about sex
• Some atheists are quick to out and condemn any offenders within their ranks - too many churches try to cover issues up.

or

• All atheists do not claim the high moral ground
• All atheists do not get hung up about sex
• All atheists are quick to out and condemn any offenders within their ranks - too many churches try to cover issues up.

?

 

[Altfish]

Do you mean

• Some atheists do not claim the high moral ground
• Some atheists do not get hung up about sex
• Some atheists are quick to out and condemn any offenders within their ranks - too many churches try to cover issues up.

or

• All atheists do not claim the high moral ground
• All atheists do not get hung up about sex
• All atheists are quick to out and condemn any offenders within their ranks - too many churches try to cover issues up.

?

I mean atheists as a group in general do not....if you know otherwise please show me the evidence

 

[nPeace]

I agree. You meant everything you said about how child sexual abuse should be handled in a church. A crime should not be reported if it makes people uncomfortable by doing so.

Putting words in my mouth?
It's perfectly fine for you to do that to others, but you are upset when you think others do it to you.
I get that some of us have that nature.
If it pleases you to be that way, be my guest.

Are you not, each time reaffirming your agenda.
It's good knowing your true motives, but would It not also explains why you contributed nothing useful to the thread, but rather continually make false accusations, and now your own brilliant thoughts.
Well, if it makes you happier... Bravo. for Effective Willful Wrong

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Putting words in my mouth?

No. I am summarizing the deflection I am witnessing.

It's perfectly fine for you to do that to others, but you are upset when you think others do it to you.

I am not surprised to see it happen. It is a common tactic I encounter. Things like accusations of some vague hidden agenda. It is typical means of deflection.

I get that some of us have that nature.
If it pleases you to be that way, be my guest.

Another vague, passive aggressive deflection and insult.

Are you not, each time reaffirming your agenda.

What is my agenda that you keep referring too? I do not know it. The OP is about known child abuse cases in religious organizations and a questions of why you do not see the same in atheist organizations. You and others on here seem to think that religious organizations should operate under special and separate rules and avoid the law. I do not. That is it. It is not a problem unique to religious organizations and on that I agree, but you bring that up along with evidence both on point and off to deflect away from the fact that it happens in churches too. You sweep away the fact, that in house of God, it should never happen at all. And there should never be a cover up or that legal processes and the rights of victims be excluded.

It's good knowing your true motives, but would It not also explains why you contributed nothing useful to the thread, but rather continually make false accusations, and now your own brilliant thoughts.

Since you never reveal any true motives that you keep talking about, I cannot address them. You have my reasons for being interested in this thread. That is as true as it gets. I do not think that a church should get a pass just because it is a church. Any Christian should feel the same way as I see it. I cannot understand why they would not considering the basis for Christian faith.

Well, if it makes you happier... Bravo. for Effective Willful Wrong

I do not know what that means. Did you just make that up? It looks silly. I am not being willfully ignorant, if that is what you are claiming. Quite the contrary. Based on what you have posted, I interpreted--correctly as far as I can tell--your position. I can accept that I could be wrong about that interpretation, but that is not evidence for willful ignorance on my part and this looks like more deflection to me.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

"A major 2004 study commissioned by the U.S. Department of Education found that nearly 10 percent of U.S. public school students reported having been targeted with sexual attention by school employees."

Sexual harassment in education in the United States - Wikipedia

According to a 2004 research study by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, 4,392 Catholic priests and deacons in active ministry between 1950 and 2002 have been plausibly (neither withdrawn nor disproven) accused of under-age sexual abuse by 10,667 individuals.

There are an estimated 51 million adult American Catholics,

7 facts about U.S. Catholics

Nearly ninety percent of all adult American Catholics now were children between 1950 to 2002.

https://cara.georgetown.edu/staff/webpages/Catholic Families Demographics.pdf

So then approximately 46 million of them were potential victims of child abuse by a Priest. 10,667 alleged victims out of 46 million potential victims means that less than one out of every four thousand Catholic children were sexually harassed by Priests, this compare to nearly one out of nearly ten public school students having been harassed by an public school employee. So then, a Catholic is nearly 400 times less likely to have been sexually harassed as a child by a Priest than the likelihood of somebody having been sexually harassed as a public school student by a public school employee.

The most important point to make, with regards to this is that you do not differentiate in any way between what is called "sexual harassment" (in education per Wikipedia) and "sexual abuse," such as that which is causing such a major disruption in the Church right up to this day. Much of the "harassment" in schools (which comes from staff, teachers and other students) is simply verbal or visual suggestion of an "unwanted" nature. Thus, saying to somebody "you're hot!" would be considered harassment if it were unwanted. That is hardly the same thing as the abuse referred to in the church scandals.

Beware of conflating too much.

And the second thing to point out is that the "sexual harassment" described in schools, while it may be unwanted, is not yet criminal. Maybe some day laws will be passed so that we are not permitted to even say "hello" unless a proper welcoming signal is given, but that day hasn't come yet. On the other hand, the touching a little boy's or girl's genitals by an adult -- whether priest or teacher -- or making them touch the adult's, are illegal and subject to criminal prosecution.

Although I've never been a parent, I can assure you of this -- if a child of mine ever came home and told me that his priest, or his teacher, or the mailman -- had touched his weenie and put a finger in his bum, the police would be there before anybody had time to catch another breath. And only then would I turn my attention to the church, the school or the post office.

 

[Revoltingest]

I just re-watched Spotlight.
It illustrates the power of a religious organization to subvert
the law & church in order to hide & continue raping children.
I know, I know...it's a movie.
But the assaults & cover ups did really occur.
Ref....
Spotlight (film) - Wikipedia